VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[mindern]

You think the story would be better if Chad was a "functioning boyfriend" and Sage had no character motivation to cheat on him? Um...huh? You do know what "conflict" is in storytelling right? "Character motivation?" Trivial things like that? I respect your opinion, and you appear to have given this some thought. But I'm not sure I can agree with any portion of your views on this as they seem to suggest to eliminate conflict and character motivation from a drama.

Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru's death in Star Wars was the catalyst that drove Luke to leave Tatooine and "learn the ways of the Force." And Chad being a "bad boyfriend" not only creates an antagonist for the protagonist in the story, but also was a motivation for Sage to need the MC. Eliminate the conflict, you have a pointless character with no dramatic motivation and one less conflict for the MC. These are all rules of creative writing. I don't believe DrPink should change the nature of storytelling and produce a drab uninteresting story with vacuous characters. Doc doesn't follow this forum for instructions so he doesn't care about stepping on toes. If he did, he wouldn't have created Derek, Quinn, Sara, or Riona.

Just offering a different perspective. I think you are focusing on the (in my opinion) inaccurate conclusion that DrPink, the writer of a Pornographic game, is worried about people's sensibilities. Food for thought.

Ignoring all this overwhelming condescension... I am aware of what conflict and motivation is. I chose a poor word in "functioning boyfriend" I didn't mean he needed to be able to have sex, I forgot about his ED and functioning puts a specific spin on that... so that is on me. By functioning I meant he was actually acting as a boyfriend, functioning as a boyfriend. He wont so much as kiss her or even say a nice thing. Even with his ED he isn't engaging with her in a romantic way at all and even in flashbacks he was cold to her. I'm not calling for them to still be sleeping together because the absence of sex is what drove her to the MC but the fact Chad's not actually behaving like her boyfriend is actually doing exactly what you so were so kind as to explain to a plebeian like me with such detail and venom.

He's giving these characters all these motivations based on behaviour they're not experiencing. Sage is desperate to stay in a relationship, constantly turns down the MC and Sarah/Melanie are going out of their way to break them up but she's never actually shown in a relationship. I wouldn't have an issue with Chad being such a bad boyfriend if she wasn't also desperately holding onto him. At some point it becomes implausible everyone is treating them like a couple. You so eloquently pointed out having Chad be a bad boyfriend removed dramatic motivation... having him be this bad a boyfriend is crippling it in exactly the same way. Her motivation to stay with him is as significant to the plot as her motivation to stray.

Similarly with Maya/Josy. They're terrified of losing one another to the point on some routes they outright reject the MC because of this but they've no actual relationship to save. They're not shown to be happy, or even together in any meaningful way beyond claiming they're together.

Being in a relationship is a motivating factor in 4/5 of the love interests. Bella hates herself for cheating on her husband. 4/5 of the characters are motivated by their existing relationship and it's incredulous that all 4 are in relationship where they're desperate to save them but none are so much as kissing their partner... sorry, Maya and Josy kissed once and DPC found the need to edit the scene in EP5 as Bacchus pointed out.

Food for thought.

 

[aslknaslknd]

Anyone have the link to the most recent update?

 

[felicemastronzo]

Ignoring all this overwhelming condescension... I am aware of what conflict and motivation is. I chose a poor word in "functioning boyfriend" I didn't mean he needed to be able to have sex, I forgot about his ED and functioning puts a specific spin on that... so that is on me. By functioning I meant he was actually acting as a boyfriend, functioning as a boyfriend. He wont so much as kiss her or even say a nice thing. Even with his ED he isn't engaging with her in a romantic way at all and even in flashbacks he was cold to her. I'm not calling for them to still be sleeping together because the absence of sex is what drove her to the MC but the fact Chad's not actually behaving like her boyfriend is actually doing exactly what you so were so kind as to explain to a plebeian like me with such detail and venom.

He's giving these characters all these motivations based on behaviour they're not experiencing. Sage is desperate to stay in a relationship, constantly turns down the MC and Sarah/Melanie are going out of their way to break them up but she's never actually shown in a relationship. I wouldn't have an issue with Chad being such a bad boyfriend if she wasn't also desperately holding onto him. At some point it becomes implausible everyone is treating them like a couple. You so eloquently pointed out having Chad be a bad boyfriend removed dramatic motivation... having him be this bad a boyfriend is crippling it in exactly the same way. Her motivation to stay with him is as significant to the plot as her motivation to stray.

Similarly with Maya/Josy. They're terrified of losing one another to the point on some routes they outright reject the MC because of this but they've no actual relationship to save. They're not shown to be happy, or even together in any meaningful way beyond claiming they're together.

Being in a relationship is a motivating factor in 4/5 of the love interests. Bella hates herself for cheating on her husband. 4/5 of the characters are motivated by their existing relationship and it's incredulous that all 4 are in relationship where they're desperate to save them but none are so much as kissing their partner... sorry, Maya and Josy kissed once and DPC found the need to edit the scene in EP5 as Bacchus pointed out.

Food for thought.

The relationship between Chad and Sage is only formal. they are two presidents of two confraternities, they are the "most beautiful couple in the world"
I don't think it's true that Sage has any reason to stay with Chad, actually she has no reason to leave him, which is not the same thing.
Sage does not want to change the status quo, the current situation is as good to her as it is.

and as long as the situation is good for Sage, nothing will change

 

[Manuka]

Does he? He didn’t listen when people complained about AL. I’m not saying he doesn’t care, but I don’t think he’d change his plans For the risk of upsetting fans. And honestly... Who gets upset by a Devil’s Triangle in a fiction? No one seems made that Arieth did one.

"For the risk of upsetting fans" is the same thing as "changing something" because of his fans. Imagine for a second, even though he wouldn't, he killed off Jill or Maya. There's such a huge fanbase for them that he'd really upset people, and most likely would retract it because people wouldn't pay for a game that pissed them off. It depends on how important it is to him that the story continues. From what I know, he wants to do this sorta thing for a living. Maybe he doesn't care and will give up if things go south. In of all this back and forth, I didn't get to really explain it. Idc at this point what people say. It's always the same 4 on this forum that have an attitude problem. They're like gnats, swatting at them doesn't do anything.

 

[mindern]

The relationship between Chad and Sage is only formal. they are two presidents of two confraternities, they are the "most beautiful couple in the world"
I don't think it's true that Sage has any reason to stay with Chad, actually she has no reason to leave him, which is not the same thing.
Sage does not want to change the status quo, the current situation is as good to her as it is.

and as long as the situation is good for Sage, nothing will change

Then why does she get so angry when he refuses to even kiss her? The scene where the MC turns up after Sage/Chad have a private argument and he kisses her forehead. I agree the fact they were both presidents of organisations who partied together was a part of their relationship but why would she get so upset over a "formal" relationship not having any intimacy in private? Nobody could see them in her room but she wanted more from him than a kiss on the forehead. She expects more from him and doesn't get even the most basic of affection.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

And this is how it works in the literary industry, Hollywood the same--how many times have we heard stories of people getting angry about something and the next thing you see is the Artist remove their social media and publicly apologize, then a script has been revised. Does everyone remember what happened to Brian from Family Guy? There are hundreds of books that are submitted by well-known authors, and the editor goes and butchers their manuscript, changing everything around, because what was written was not popular with what people are looking for. At the end of the day, it comes down to Money. If you're not making them money, your opinion means nothing. It is very difficult to do what you want when you go public. There's no arguing that. And like DPC who said he wants to do this as a career, can't just dance to his own tune every time, this is, unfortunately, the reality of being in the public eye.

And how many times have we heard about writers having their stories micro-managed to the point where it ends up completely butchered? Having other people tell you how to do your story because of what they want or what they think people want can lead to the story being completely ruined by all the different voices trying to pull it in the complete opposite direction.

Sometimes changes to a story can make it work better and sometimes changes completely ruin it, especially when you change it to what you think people want. As God (Morgan Freeman) said in Bruce Almighty, "Since when did anybody ever have a clue about what they want?" The best thing a writer can do, especially ones who don't answer to Hollywood producers or publishing companies, is to stick to their guns and write their story because there will always be an audience and a market for it.

Not even sure how having Josy and Maya scenes in the same save is possible in any case since they chronologically happen at the same time. Just like you can't send the evening with Maya AND got Quinn's room for a threesome since they happen at the same time. Are you saying there is or was a way to do both Maya and Josy (jeez...I just used "do" as a verb...) in the same save in another version of the game, Bacchus?

According to the OP in the mod thread, it is now apparently possible to use the mod to see both the Maya and Josy scenes in ep 5.

How come his face is OK while Jamie's face is still fucked up?

Tybalt used Photoshop, or simply this is the "non-punched" image and there will be a "punched" alternate in ep 6 for those who hit him.

but are you sure that for DPC it is such a big problem to create situations that for some are (wrongly) NTR?

Sage if things go wrong with MC will most likely return definitively with Chad.
Maya and Josy are at least 50% likely to end as a couple without MC
Bella, when her husband returns, at least momentarily, she will move away from MC, and if things go wrong it could be definitive.
only Jill doesn't have an alternative to MC right now, but she'll find it for sure.

I don't see the problem, at best we will never see these other couples in intimacy.

Technically, it's only really the dreaded 3-letter word if the viewer/player cares about the character in question. Therefore, if players aren't interested in pursuing Sage, then seeing her with Chad isn't really NTR since there's no feeling there. However, in order to avoid people feeling that, it's likely we won't see any LIs interacting with "love rivals" until the game's various endings, and this will likely also include seeing Maya and Josy together in any way.

Also, Jill's alternate is likely to be Rusty.

 

[felicemastronzo]

Then why does she get so angry when he refuses to even kiss her? The scene where the MC turns up after Sage/Chad have a private argument and he kisses her forehead. I agree the fact they were both presidents of organisations who partied together was a part of their relationship but why would she get so upset over a "formal" relationship not having any intimacy in private? Nobody could see them in her room but she wanted more from him than a kiss on the forehead. She expects more from him and doesn't get even the most basic of affection.

if Chad does not cooperate, it becomes difficult for Sage to convince everyone that everything is fine between them


if nobody ever sees them together, never in intimacy, gossip would still start to circulate (regardless of MC)

 

[Manuka]

And how many times have we heard about writers having their stories micro-managed to the point where it ends up completely butchered? Having other people tell you how to do your story because of what they want or what they think people want can lead to the story being completely ruined by all the different voices trying to pull it in the complete opposite direction.

Sometimes changes to a story can make it work better and sometimes changes completely ruin it, especially when you change it to what you think people want. As God (Morgan Freeman) said in Bruce Almighty, "Since when did anybody ever have a clue about what they want?" The best thing a writer can do, especially ones who don't answer to Hollywood producers or publishing companies, is to stick to their guns and write their story because there will always be an audience and a market for it.

And I totally agree. Yet you continually pursue me like I'm opposing what you're saying. But when you stick to your guns, you end up pissing someone off. You either comply or get out of the way. If enough people get pissed off at him, the game is done. He can't fund it. How much longer can the game continue to be developed before those monthly patreons start dropping off, trying to budget?

 

[felicemastronzo]

Technically, it's only really the dreaded 3-letter word if the viewer/player cares about the character in question. Therefore, if players aren't interested in pursuing Sage, then seeing her with Chad isn't really NTR since there's no feeling there. However, in order to avoid people feeling that, it's likely we won't see any LIs interacting with "love rivals" until the game's various endings, and this will likely also include seeing Maya and Josy together in any way.

Also, Jill's alternate is likely to be Rusty.

the players or the MC?

who is interested the player counts up to a certain point (any reference to KRJ is purely random).
and MC is necessarily interested in the 5 LIs, it is in the essence of their characters

 

[always86]

"For the risk of upsetting fans" is the same thing as "changing something" because of his fans.

You’ve misunderstood what I sad, which in part is because I wasn’t clear. I didn‘t mean he wouldnt change because that might upset people. I meant he won’t change his plans even if that upsets people.

Imagine for a second, even though he wouldn't, he killed off Jill or Maya. There's such a huge fanbase for them that he'd really upset people, and most likely would retract it because people wouldn't pay for a game that pissed them off. It depends on how important it is to him that the story continues. From what I know, he wants to do this sorta thing for a living. Maybe he doesn't care and will give up if things go south. In of all this back and forth, I didn't get to really explain it. Idc at this point what people say.

In AL he literally kills off one of the two leading female characters people complained. He didn’t change anything. I doubt he would do that in this game because I don’t think it fits the theme. However there is a world of difference between MC having a threesome with his frat mate and girlfriend than killing off a main character.

It's always the same 4 on this forum that have an attitude problem. They're like gnats, swatting at them doesn't do anything.

I find your idea of what constitutes an attitude problem fascinating. Apparently it’s when people share ideas/ theories you don’t like. I’m here to discuss a game I like. If I see something I disagree with I either discuss it or ignore it.

If you disagree with an idea fine. Make your case, just don’t get mad when people don’t agree with you.

 

[Manuka]

You’ve misunderstood what I sad, which in part is because I wasn’t clear. I didn‘t mean he wouldn't change because that might upset people. I meant he won’t change his plans even if that upsets people.

Ok, np.

 

[felicemastronzo]

In AL he literally kills off one of the two leading female characters people complained. He didn’t change anything. I doubt he would do that in this game because I don’t think it fits the theme. However there is a world of difference between MC having a threesome with his frat mate and girlfriend than killing off a main character.

and in the end it is the minor problem of AL

 

[Phynix]

Then why does she get so angry when he refuses to even kiss her? The scene where the MC turns up after Sage/Chad have a private argument and he kisses her forehead. I agree the fact they were both presidents of organisations who partied together was a part of their relationship but why would she get so upset over a "formal" relationship not having any intimacy in private? Nobody could see them in her room but she wanted more from him than a kiss on the forehead. She expects more from him and doesn't get even the most basic of affection.

The reason for lack of affection could be that being together with Sage has always been about his public image. His "side" SO could very well be his real love, which is why he's avoiding getting intimate with Sage.

 

[Manuka]

I find your idea of what constitutes an attitude problem fascinating. Apparently it’s when people share ideas/ theories you don’t like. I’m here to discuss a game I like. If I see something I disagree with I either discuss it or ignore it.

If you disagree with an idea fine. Make your case, just don’t get mad when people don’t agree with you.

No, it's when you're blind to what's happening that entices the problem. I stated a case earlier, someone got defensive, even was sarcastic about it, I ignored it, and it just escalated with the same bozos. You can count them easily in a single one-sided post. Yet I'm being attacked for stating a fact? Then I guess you're number 5. See, it's easy.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

"For the risk of upsetting fans" is the same thing as "changing something" because of his fans. Imagine for a second, even though he wouldn't, he killed off Jill or Maya. There's such a huge fanbase for them that he'd really upset people, and most likely would retract it because people wouldn't pay for a game that pissed them off. It depends on how important it is to him that the story continues. From what I know, he wants to do this sorta thing for a living. Maybe he doesn't care and will give up if things go south. In of all this back and forth, I didn't get to really explain it. Idc at this point what people say. It's always the same 4 on this forum that have an attitude problem. They're like gnats, swatting at them doesn't do anything.

DPC already "upset fans" with AL so we know they're not above doing that. My issue with this whole "listen to the fans" stuff is that they will change a character's good ending to a bad ending because there's a perception that they are unpopular and some "fans" have spoken very harshly of them, and that, in my view, would be wrong.

Whether it's M&J, or Quinn, or anybody else, if DPC has planned for them to have a good or good-ish ending, then he shouldn't change that on the basis of a few special render polls and venomous comments from a vocal few. It's like when Star Wars introduced Ahsoka Tano in the Clone Wars series; she wasn't very popular at first and she's now one of the most popular Star Wars characters, but had Lucasfilm listened to that early criticism and got rid of her then that might not have happened.

And I totally agree. Yet you continually pursue me like I'm opposing what you're saying. But when you stick to your guns, you end up pissing someone off. You either comply or get out of the way. If enough people get pissed off at him, the game is done. He can't fund it. How much longer can the game continue to be developed before those monthly patreons start dropping off, trying to budget?

I don't think you oppose what I say, I think we're just saying it in different ways and each trying to clarify our stance as clearly as possible, hence the back-and-forth.

There will always be people who don't like how things end or how they play out, but there will always be far more who continue to support them. I disliked all but one of the latest Star Wars movies since Disney took charge (the one good film being Rogue One), but I am still a Star Wars fan who buys the merch of the parts I like, reads the comics, and watches the shows. Some people say they are "done" with Star Wars after those films, but I'm not even though I didn't like them, and some people might one day say they are "done" with this game and with DPC if he does something they don't like, but plenty of others won't be "done" and he'll still get support.

In the end, what I hope is that the lesson DPC has taken from AL is to always have the option to avoid a character having a tragic ending. I remember playing Dreams of Desire the first time and (SPOILER) Tracy got killed near the end of the game. I was like, "WTF?!", but then I found out I made a wrong choice earlier and when I went back, this scene had a better outcome. Similarly, I only got one character ending the first time when I wanted the harem ending and found out that that too was because of certain choices that I then went back to do differently. Therefore, if there is a bad ending for any LI or even a side character like Quinn, it should be avoidable by being based on making the "right" choices, unlike AL where it was unavoidable no matter what you did.

 

[Manuka]

DPC already "upset fans" with AL so we know they're not above doing that. My issue with this whole "listen to the fans" stuff is that they will change a character's good ending to a bad ending because there's a perception that they are unpopular and some "fans" have spoken very harshly of them, and that, in my view, would be wrong.

Whether it's M&J, or Quinn, or anybody else, if DPC has planned for them to have a good or good-ish ending, then he shouldn't change that on the basis of a few special render polls and venomous comments from a vocal few. It's like when Star Wars introduced Ahsoka Tano in the Clone Wars series; she wasn't very popular at first and she's now one of the most popular Star Wars characters, but had Lucasfilm listened to that early criticism and got rid of her then that might not have happened.



I don't think you oppose what I say, I think we're just saying it in different ways and each trying to clarify our stance as clearly as possible, hence the back-and-forth.

There will always be people who don't like how things end or how they play out, but there will always be far more who continue to support them. I disliked all but one of the latest Star Wars movies since Disney took charge (the one good film being Rogue One), but I am still a Star Wars fan who buys the merch of the parts I like, reads the comics, and watches the shows. Some people say they are "done" with Star Wars after those films, but I'm not even though I didn't like them, and some people might one day say they are "done" with this game and with DPC if he does something they don't like, but plenty of others won't be "done" and he'll still get support.

In the end, what I hope is that the lesson DPC has taken from AL is to always have the option to avoid a character having a tragic ending. I remember playing Dreams of Desire the first time and (SPOILER) Tracy got killed near the end of the game. I was like, "WTF?!", but then I found out I made a wrong choice earlier and when I went back, this scene had a better outcome. Similarly, I only got one character ending the first time when I wanted the harem ending and found out that that too was because of certain choices that I then went back to do differently. Therefore, if there is a bad ending for any LI or even a side character like Quinn, it should be avoidable by being based on making the "right" choices, unlike AL where it was unavoidable no matter what you did.

Agreed.

 

[AvatarStormBringer]

The relationship between Chad and Sage is only formal. they are two presidents of two confraternities, they are the "most beautiful couple in the world"
I don't think it's true that Sage has any reason to stay with Chad, actually she has no reason to leave him, which is not the same thing.
Sage does not want to change the status quo, the current situation is as good to her as it is.

and as long as the situation is good for Sage, nothing will change

But the situation is NOT GOOD because she is not getting the attention that she wants from Chad. She wants blood because Chad's attention is focused on another bitch and not her, that's why she unleashed her hound-dog / fuck-buddy to find out who that bitch is.

She's infatuated with Chad, but she's not blind to just sit there and wait for him to turn around. She's not blind to MC's advances either, and I think she is starting to like it. I believe this is due to everyone in campus knows about the "most beautiful couple" and one half of that couple is very buffed that they dare not disturb that status quo, so she never had a chance to experience the advances that she's getting from MC now.

 

[GPsarakis]

Eagerly waiting for my beach time with Jade. But a Cathy is fine to, for now.

 

[felicemastronzo]

But the situation is NOT GOOD because she is not getting the attention that she wants from Chad. She wants blood because Chad's attention is focused on another bitch and not her, that's why she unleashed her hound-dog / fuck-buddy to find out who that bitch is.

She's infatuated with Chad, but she's not blind to just sit there and wait for him to turn around. She's not blind to MC's advances either, and I think she is starting to like it. I believe this is due to everyone in campus knows about the "most beautiful couple" and one half of that couple is very buffed that they dare not disturb that status quo, so she never had a chance to experience the advances that she's getting from MC now.

I do not agree.
Sage's problem is appearances.
If Chad has another girlfriend it's not a problem, the problem arises if people find out.
in fact the rebel HOTs want to make the situation public

 

[Maviarab]

I do not agree.
Sage's problem is appearances.
If Chad has another girlfriend it's not a problem, the problem arises if people find out.
in fact the rebel HOTs want to make the situation public

Sorry, but she sure as hell acts like a lack of intimicy and him not being a 'boyfriend' is a real major problem to/for her. Yes I agree, keeping up appearances for fraternity politics is probably also important, but I think what we see is pretty straight cut.

That kiss on the forehead scene tells you everything you need to know about how she feels. Anyone with any relatiosnhip experience can figure that one out. Add in the infedelity, frat politics is low down on the list.