VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[Rinbael]

And only God knows how many times that exact thing (M&J rejecting MC based only in his affinity) has been said during last months. Criticism is kind of consistent in that regard

that of Josy and Maya for me is the worst scene of the game and I don't think we can do worse ....

the problem is the same, less serious because Quinn is a secondary character that I believe only interests a part of the players.

in both choices there is the problem that the affinity exceeds direct experience, as if the characters do not know each other, in this there is also the discrepancy between the required affinity and the tone of the scene

Yes exactly. Basically it can be summed up as the affinity system should have been planned out more and needed more time spent on it or he shouldn't have put it in the game in the first place.

 

[Redd23]

out of curiosity - what were your scores on mansion repair front? meaning clear-up score and money amount

 

[felicemastronzo]

Yes exactly. Basically it can be summed up as the affinity system should have been planned out more and needed more time spent on it or he shouldn't have put it in the game in the first place.

I don't know if DPC ever explained how he intended this additional system to work, but as I understand it it would have made sense if it worked for those who know little about us, at the first meetings.

I give another example of how it is not logical: when we take Quinn's number it is a Major choice, whenever we use Quinn's service it is not. that is, it's serious to be able to do it but not to do it

 

[DavDR]

Yet being gay was punishiable by death in predominantly Christian countries for hundreds of years, they just changed their laws and attitudes sooner than some other religions. But there are still extremists on the Christian right who commit murder against gay and trans people and who threaten them with it because of their beliefs, so it still occurs, even if it isn't explicitly condoned.

But even without going that far, there are Christians who promote conversion therapy and believe homosexuality is sinful and immoral, so this could be very well be what Maya's Dad believes, and the fact that he says things like, "you're not the daughter I wanted", would seem to suggest this is what he thinks.



An uber-religious Dad who is against his daughter being gay is believable because it still happens today, in every religion, so there's no reason why it shouldn't be depicted, as it's not necessarily based on prejudice, but on fact.

There are extremist Gamers that threaten dev's if they don't like the latest game. But I'm sure that many would object if every time a gamer was portrayed in fiction it was that extreme stereotype.

 

[Phil04]

I'm sorry to bring it up, but was there never a full save for ep 6 posted?

 

[Rinbael]

I don't know if DPC ever explained how he intended this additional system to work, but as I understand it it would have made sense if it worked for those who know little about us, at the first meetings.

I give another example of how it is not logical: when we take Quinn's number it is a Major choice, whenever we use Quinn's service it is not. that is, it's serious to be able to do it but not to do it

I get the feeling he wanted it to be like the Paragon/Renegade system in Mass Effect. The difference is in that game characters don't immediately decide to refuse your help if you have more renegade points.

 

[godkingxerxes]

When it comes down to Quinn, what do you guys think it might happen to her? I've seen people predicting bad things...Care to elaborate?

Nothing will outright happen to Quinn. People point to Acting Lessons, and say that DPC has no issues killing off characters.

But like or dislike the fire scene, there was a choice, and the endings weren't all bad.

Quinn dying with no player input is not going to happen, that's not a choice even DPC will make.

 

[Ilhares]

OK, I feel really stupid for forgetting (d), but at the same time, (d) does not provide any great insight into the person answering.

I thought you'd left it out on purpose, since the previous answers all seemed related to MC's cock, everybody was getting the D regardless.

Chad's denial during that scene seems genuine to me. If that's true, then the cheating stuff is misdirection to create drama with Sage.

It's also possible he doesn't think he's cheating. Not everybody shares the same perspective on such topics. I've dated bi- women and I took no issue whatsoever with her going off to get involved with other women. Obviously they provided something for her that I didn't/couldn't. I'm not so egotistical as to think I can provide everything somebody needs, and I don't begrudge them seeking it. If they went after other men I'd take issue with that (as happened once), but I never considered other women to be 'cheating' for them. I guess in my mind it's hard to call it cheating with it's a different game. YMMV.

I think these boards are going down hill fast all of a sudden...

I think the world would be a better place if we were all going down a lot more.

 

[Javichu]

when goes out the walktrought for season 6?

 

[DavDR]

I thought you'd left it out on purpose, since the previous answers all seemed related to MC's cock, everybody was getting the D regardless.
It's also possible he doesn't think he's cheating. Not everybody shares the same perspective on such topics. I've dated bi- women and I took no issue whatsoever with her going off to get involved with other women. Obviously they provided something for her that I didn't/couldn't. I'm not so egotistical as to think I can provide everything somebody needs, and I don't begrudge them seeking it. If they went after other men I'd take issue with that (as happened once), but I never considered other women to be 'cheating' for them. I guess in my mind it's hard to call it cheating with it's a different game. YMMV.
I think the world would be a better place if we were all going down a lot more.

Yes but how would you feel if she stopped having sex with you altogether, and only slept with her girlfriend. That's more like the situation Sage is facing.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

I think DPC did it for the same reason he made Maya/Josy require Neutral/CHICK affinity he wanted to split up certain routes to make it easier to manage. All the things said about Quinn not accepting the MCs help if he is CHICK not making sense could be said about Maya and Josy rejecting him if he is DIK affinity.

I very much agree and this is where my biggest issue with the affinity system lies because it so often contradicts the actions of the player/MC which I feel should matter the most in determining his relationships with them. I honestly think it's more complex to have these 3 systems (affinity, status, and actions) running on top of each other rather than just assign a marker to important actions that can be recalled later. This, to me, would be easier than assigning things to certain paths and would make more sense in terms of how characters perceive him.

I think the logic behind that being a DIK affinity event, is because she sees you treating her differently to everyone else.

For me at least the scene seems to be written as two Rough personalities being somewhat vulnerable with each other

But the thing is that you can treat Quinn relatively the same on both paths, yet one rewards you just because of an affinity check. It's exactly the same as the M&J situation in Ep 4 where all paths can do the same things with them yet you're rejected for your affinity even though the sum of your actions with these characters would suggest that you shouldn't be.

His personality, therefore, as far as these people are concerned, shouldn't seem to be something that they don't like since they've only seen one side to them and it's a side they like. This is entirely anecdotal, but years ago I worked with someone who was very different from me personality-wise. There were very outgoing, quite crass at times, and could be quite inappropriate, but we got on very well and became quite good friends depsite being so different. I liked them, bonded with them over some common interests, and came to trust them because they proved it to me in their actions.

Being different in personality doesn't have to mean you don't like someone because you can be different and still like/trust each other, and with all the things the MC can do with Quinn, this should build at least the beginnings of trust no matter what affinity he has and make her accept his help on any path.

 

[ename144]

I don't know if DPC ever explained how he intended this additional system to work, but as I understand it it would have made sense if it worked for those who know little about us, at the first meetings.

I give another example of how it is not logical: when we take Quinn's number it is a Major choice, whenever we use Quinn's service it is not. that is, it's serious to be able to do it but not to do it

Eh, I get the logic there: the major decision is whether the MC is willing to pay for sex or not. Each individual use of the restaurant shop is just a lesser detail in comparison. To me, that's one of the better uses of of the Major Choice mechanic.

I think the problem with Affinity is that way too many of the decisions are arbitrary: a lot of the choices feel either redundant or blown out of proportion. There are 4 full choices revolving around fighting someone (5 if you count Tybalt), and one of them is even gated by a previous choice. By the time we get to Tommy, what exactly makes that fight meaningfully different from the previous ones? Meanwhile, choosing to offer support to Steve is a Major Decision... why? It has literally no bearing on anything afterwards - particularly the decisions to extend olive branches to Chad, Quinn, or Maya and Josy. There's no clear logic behind what makes a decision Major.

There's also the problem that while Major Choices determine affinity, it's the minor choices that determine Status, and Status is what actually changes how the MC acts. Since DPC insists that Affinity represents an aspect of the MC's personality, it really should be Affinity that gates the different conversation options. But DPC spread that out across two barely related systems, so instead of a single, unified mechanic we get an inconsistent, muddled mess.

Sadly, that ship has sailed and we're stuck with the mess. It's never going to make logical sense, so we just have guess at what it's trying to do by how DPC frames a given choice.

 

[R1viel]

But the thing is that you can treat Quinn relatively the same on both paths, yet one rewards you just because of an affinity check. It's exactly the same as the M&J situation in Ep 4 where all paths can do the same things with them yet you're rejected for your affinity even though the sum of your actions with these characters would suggest that you shouldn't be.

His personality, therefore, as far as these people are concerned, shouldn't seem to be something that they don't like since they've only seen one side to them and it's a side they like. This is entirely anecdotal, but years ago I worked with someone who was very different from me personality-wise. There were very outgoing, quite crass at times, and could be quite inappropriate, but we got on very well and became quite good friends depsite being so different. I liked them, bonded with them over some common interests, and came to trust them because they proved it to me in their actions.

Being different in personality doesn't have to mean you don't like someone because you can be different and still like/trust each other, and with all the things the MC can do with Quinn, this should build at least the beginnings of trust no matter what affinity he has and make her accept his help on any path.

I don't disagree, the fact that affinity is the decisive fact seems odd as you can do all the same things on the chick route. Honestly I think the best way to have done that scene would have been for her to accept your help, but leave before a certain part of the scene depending on your affinity.

The point I trying to make was while I don't necessarily agree with how the scene was handled I could see the logic behind it.

I think affinity was the easist way to code it without giving it hundreds of flags, I'm inclined to think DPC chose for DIK afinity to be a trigger as it was one of the cleanist way to code the scene. but I'm not a good enough of a programer to say if thats the case

 

[Holy Bacchus]

I don't disagree, the fact that affinity is the decisive fact seems odd as you can do all the same things on the chick route. Honestly I think the best way to have done that scene would have been for her to accept your help, but leave before a certain part of the scene depending on your affinity.

The point I trying to make was while I don't necessarily agree with how the scene was handled I could see the logic behind it.

I think affinity was the easist way to code it without giving it hundreds of flags, I'm inclined to think DPC chose for DIK afinity to be a trigger as it was one of the cleanist way to code the scene. but I'm not a good enough of a programer to say if thats the case

The thing is though that, when you take affinity out of it, most things only require 1 or 2 flags when it comes to certain scenes, like this one, for example, just requires taking her number, using her services, and having sex in Ep 4. Two of those are major choices, but minor choices also have flags, and whilst there would end up being potentially hundreds if they just did it this way, it would, in my view, be easier to just not have the affinity system at the very least and just base it on what the MC does and doesn't do with certain characters.

 

[Jacktron1]

Honestly the only person i can think of who could help Maya when it comes to money is Tybalt and the only reason i could see him help is if he got something out of it which would probably involve Bella or Jill

 

[gpsywolf]

So much talk when all you have to say is "This is a total chaotic mess that you need a guide for, if you are having any hope of getting an outcome that you will like". Personally i doubt there's even a guide out there that can take into account all 3 levels of flags and checks in this game. So good luck it is i guess.

 

[Jacktron1]

So much talk when all you have to say is "This is a total chaotic mess that you need a guide for, if you are having any hope of getting an outcome that you will like". Personally i doubt there's even a guide out there that can take into account all 3 levels of flags and checks in this game. So good luck it is i guess.

Didn't need a guide myself and i still got Josy Jill Bella Maya and Sage

 

[ename144]

The thing is though that, when you take affinity out of it, most things only require 1 or 2 flags when it comes to certain scenes, like this one, for example, just requires taking her number, using her services, and having sex in Ep 4. Two of those are major choices, but minor choices also have flags, and whilst there would end up being potentially hundreds if they just did it this way, it would, in my view, be easier to just not have the affinity system at the very least and just base it on what the MC does and doesn't do with certain characters.

Maybe. Then again, maybe it's just that hard for Quinn to let her guard down around someone: one or two examples aren't enough, the MC needs to go above and beyond in proving he's trustworthy (in her eyes). It's one thing to fool around with a hot guy, it's another let that guy see her at her most vulnerable.

I can believe Quinn would trust an MC who thinks/acts like a DIK far more than a CHICK, even if they had both done the same thinks objectively; she hates showing weakness and would never fully trust someone who is comfortable doing so. If we assume for a moment that the Affinity system made a lick of sense, tying Quinn's decision to it would be reasonable. Of course the system is a mess so the requirement feels arbitrary.

But that's what I meant about being stuck with a bad system. DPC thinks affinity means something, so he will tie future events to it. We just have to take our best guess about what the intended rationale was and try to reconstruct the scene in our heads to fill in the gaps. It's frustrating, but I'm willing to overlook a few major flaws if the rest of the game delivers.

 

[felicemastronzo]

Eh, I get the logic there: the major decision is whether the MC is willing to pay for sex or not. Each individual use of the restaurant shop is just a lesser detail in comparison. To me, that's one of the better uses of of the Major Choice mechanic.

I think the problem with Affinity is that way too many of the decisions are arbitrary: a lot of the choices feel either redundant or blown out of proportion. There are 4 full choices revolving around fighting someone (5 if you count Tybalt), and one of them is even gated by a previous choice. By the time we get to Tommy, what exactly makes that fight meaningfully different from the previous ones? Meanwhile, choosing to offer support to Steve is a Major Decision... why? It has literally no bearing on anything afterwards - particularly the decisions to extend olive branches to Chad, Quinn, or Maya and Josy. There's no clear logic behind what makes a decision Major.

There's also the problem that while Major Choices determine affinity, it's the minor choices that determine Status, and Status is what actually changes how the MC acts. Since DPC insists that Affinity represents an aspect of the MC's personality, it really should be Affinity that gates the different conversation options. But DPC spread that out across two barely related systems, so instead of a single, unified mechanic we get an inconsistent, muddled mess.

Sadly, that ship has sailed and we're stuck with the mess. It's never going to make logical sense, so we just have guess at what it's trying to do by how DPC frames a given choice.

you have taken the reason why Quinn's choice is not logical (if you commit, you can justify everything, but if you have to try hard it is not valid) in the rest of your speech


every single time you fight is a major choice, even when MC is attacked (as by Tommy at the end) and therefore would be justified in defending himself even according to his father's strict code. instead you can go with the "prostitutes" whenever you want, until you practically become Quinn's best customer recognized by the whole restaurant.

yet it doesn't ruin your reputation, being a well-known whorehouse is fine

 

[ffsage]

Here you go

Thanks a lot!!