VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[dalli_x]

Or, perhaps, it's a porn game, and guys like to cum inside girls (I mean, it really is the best thing!). No great mystery here, dudes.

I personally don't see it as a porn game. For me it is a real game for adults. DPC puts a lot of effort into making the player emotionally attached to the characters. The game has depth and you can read that in the official walkthrough.

"Hint! This choice will have consequences for Maya. If you like Maya, it's best to tell her about Quinn."

In a porn game this would not be written in the Walkthrought. It would rather be written that the MC should tell Maya about Quinn, so that Maya becomes the center of a gangbang.

 

[ename144]

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I mostly worked on static renders and dialogue this week. Since I have gotten a good flow with producing art, I will continue to focus on that in general.

I also purchased 22 new songs, but I'm not sure if I will add all of them to this episode or another one. I've added 12 of them so far to episode 8.

Work will likely consist of a mix of posing animations and static renders next week, and I will start production on the special render series that you voted for in this week's poll.

Speaking of the poll, the winner, who will get a special render set in episode 8, is Sally. I hope you enjoyed the slightly different poll for Special renders.

It was a fairly even poll with four front runners, but Sally overtook three out of four polls in the end.

There will be a special 2D art poll for the +$30 tiers starting soon.

Have a nice weekend

Dr PinkCake

I'm glad he's apparently being productive, but at this rate it might be August before I have a second set of data points for my charts.

Don't you think that Sage has a right to know that her entire relationship with Chad was a lie?

In all seriousness, do you think that merely telling Sage she fell head-over-heals in love with a gay man will help her move on with her life if Chad still refuses to discuss the matter with her? I'm not seeing the benefit myself.

Don't get me wrong, Sage does deserve a proper explanation from Chad, but it's the from Chad that really matters here. For whatever reason, she invested a lot of herself into that relationship and he did not. Learning that Chad was lying to her even more fundamentally than she already thought seems likely to make matters worse unless she can also understand why this happened and thus what lessons she needs to take from the miserable experience.

And sadly, that's just not information the MC can provide because Chad being gay is only a small part of the explanation. The MC simply doesn't know the rest of it (at least as of right now); we don't know why Chad entered into the relationship in the first place. It could be he started with honest intentions only to find himself stuck when he realized he really was 100% gay (sort of like a couple who expects a child to save their marriage). Or it could be that he just saw Sage as convenient cover and never really gave a rat's ass about her.

Those are extremely different scenarios that would probably draw very different reactions from Sage, yet the MC's information can't really distinguish between them. And everything we've seen about Sage suggests that giving her wildly incomplete information won't result in her calmly seeking to complete the information; no, she'll probably assume the worst and lash out immediately. Which might just make everything WORSE if it turns out not to have been the worst case scenario.

That's why I think the MC should be slow to spill the beans on Chad's secret. It's not that he has some obligation to Chad specifically, but it's extremely unwise to reveal explosive, context-free information willy-nilly. Sage needs closure, not rumor.

I do miss the scene with Tommy in the bar, on the playthru's where I choose to go with Sage. I think it's a good scene, first chance to really bond with MC's DIK Daddy.

Yeah, that's a nice moment to show that Tommy isn't a one-note villain while still keeping him very much Tommy.

 

[`Ray`]

Or, perhaps, it's a porn game, and guys like to cum inside girls (I mean, it really is the best thing!). No great mystery here, dudes.

No not at all, this isn't a porn game for most of the people here.

It is full of Emotions, Humor, Depth, that you would fail to find in most of the games here. You should play Acting Lessons, a previous game of DPC. It made the Players emotionally invested in it and they cried in the end.

No one feels unhappy or cries because of a porn game, but this is a story. DPC didn't make this as a porn game.

 

[darkstealler]

is Jill route gonna be the end game route ? Only kiss and caressing till now.

 

[Lewdpussydick]

I agree. I was wrong. I just found out by looking at another screenshot. But that doesn't change the theory that Quinn and Tommy are behind the conspiracy on the Dik's, Cathy and Jade/MC, because Quinn and Tommy would have the most benefit.

No they don't. Quinn and Tommy have already broke their friendship in ep 7. Tommy says at the end of ep7 to Quinn when she didn't apologized " You aren't worth shit to me"
Tommy cares about DIKs, he may seems to be a cunt but deep down he wants the best for DIKs. He is a party crackhead, his plan with Quinn was to set the DIK mention with drugs and booze, unite HOTs and DIKs. That was his deal with Quinn, and she broke that trust because of this. You can go over the dialogue at the end.
And Quinn broke the deal for the moneys she needs it for her mother or father at Buddy's place. She doesn't give shit as long as she gets the money and destroying DIK mansion isn't meant shit to her.

Now where my theory stands seems fit to involve Dawe and Vinny. Both might have struck a deal, so Vinny helps Dawe through Nick so he could humiliate Cathy because he fails her classes for a long time and in return Vinny gets to destroy DIK mansion which is initiated by alphas and ended by him.
We don't have the motive behind Vinny doing this but I can list a few clues I got from the game that he is behind the destruction of mansion.

And I think the main antagonist of this game is none other than Vinny for the reasons:-
1) He has a drug business and is doing far better than Quinn, also knows Quinn and her dealer.
2) We don't know the real reason as to why he was kicked of DIKS and B&R.
3) When the aplhas trashed DIK mansion, the spray painted logos at the main hall and kitchen is different from one sprayed in every DIK personal room(something curvy while ones at the hall abd kitchen is straight).during the renovation when we meet Rusty, there is a sign of Eat A Bag of Diks which happens during the crash. If you look closely, the handwriting matches when we saw flashback of Vinny getting the library, painting something which I don't remember and could also been seen during several free roam in the dik mansion before mc covers it with tarp.
4) Nick room's wasn't destroyed and he mentions of meeting Vinny outside the campus from time to time. He was also very close friends with Vinny.
5) The black Mailer identity isn't revealed and that could be him(although it's too far fetched without any evidence)

 

[`Ray`]

is Jill route gonna be the end game route ? Only kiss and caressing till now.

How many times have I seen this kind of question and answered it ?

I agree that since MC had sex multiple times with other LI's, people ask why not yet with Jill?

First of all, this game is a storytelling one not a porn game on main basis. The story is the main focus of DPC not the sex scenes. Things with Jill are going good and it is actually possible that in ep8 or ep9, we have sex with Jill.

Still...I really don't understand why people are so eager for MC to have sex with Jill. I want it to happen as well but I am enjoying other aspects as well. Dates with her are satisfactory and it's no fun to bang a girl every 10s.

Guys just run for pussy, not for the love and chemistry...but I am a vanilla guy.
*Whispers- Everyone has their own tastes Robert*...*Right*

This opinion is given by a normal guy who cherishes love and chemistry more than sex...classy

 

[Niu6609]

I got (really, really) bored, so I decided to create my own B&R class. I call it Dalli Studies 101. My lovely assistant Maya will be administering the first quiz, which (lucky for you) will be ungraded. For those with the intestinal fortitude to not only read all of dalli_x's posts, but also commit his writings to memory, this should come easy. Gauge your knowledge below.

Note: Ignore the cheat counter, and feel free to click the Cheat links as often as you need.

Spoiler: Question 1

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Spoiler: Question 2

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Spoiler: Question 3

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Spoiler: Question 4

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Spoiler: Question 5

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Spoiler: Question 6

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OK, kids! Time to see how you did:

Spoiler: Answer Key

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I admire your dedication to this craft, and I also wonder exactly how long it took you to compile all these questions and answers. You sir, are truly a man of sheer willpower and I respect that. On that note, I have no clue how I did since I didn't bother trying it at all

I agree it's those fucking nerds who are responsible ! You can't trust them ! (I should know I'm one of them )
View attachment 1253226

But it's not Magnar or Sally, I think that they will stay friends with the MC until the end (I mean we got to have another game of DNG and angry hate sex with Sally!)

The real suspect to me are Bert and Ron...
Bert really hates the DIKS obviously. Being Derek’s roomate and potentially getting that wedgie may have triggered his revenge plan...

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And Ron is a known peeping Tom... Maybe he took that picture of Cathy in the locker room.

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And since they are tech savvy, they could have easily hacked the DIK's Rooster account and post that picture !

It also makes sense to balance out the antagonist from different frats :
- Tybalt : Prep antagonist
- Dawe : Jock antagonist
- Ron : Nerd antagonist

OK Maybe I'm overthinking it and this is a little Dalli ! But hey if others still think that it's Tommy or Quinn for no reason, then this theory is plausible too !


Honestly, I will always be amazed by dalli_x wild imagination and by how much time you have on your hand OFT ! Good job
I got 3/6 ! It's not bad but Sage won't approve...

I've never given the nerds a second thought, since they seemed tame and timid, but after thinking about what you've said, there could be a possibility of the Cluck being posted by the nerds. After all, they are nerds, and stereotypically, they'd be good with tech stuff. They might not even have needed the DIKs' laptop, and could've just hacked into their Rooster account to upload that picture of Cathy, that could have been taken by a drone through a window or a crack (since we don't actually know the building in which Cathy was captured).

Maybe that scene of Ron and Bert in the hallway when you choose to stay with Derek was a precursor for this whole shenanigan. They were discussing their plan to frame the DIKs and ruin their reputation by sabotaging their Rooster account while testing out the drone to ensure that it was fully functioning.

I do miss the scene with Tommy in the bar, on the playthru's where I choose to go with Sage. I think it's a good scene, first chance to really bond with MC's DIK Daddy.

Though I still do find him a bit of an annoyance, it was nice to be able to bond with Tommy for a while. Understanding that he cares for the DIKs, seeing him actually make an effort to bond with his ex-maggot son, helped me see him in a slightly new light. Hopefully there'll be more chances to bond with the dude in the future, because I think that might help when he finds out we're sleeping with his stepsister. Maybe he won't fuck us up as much?

Or, perhaps, it's a porn game, and guys like to cum inside girls (I mean, it really is the best thing!). No great mystery here, dudes.

Man, with the number of times the MC has came inside, you'd think that there'd be at least one case of college pregnancy by now, but no, there are ZERO cases. It's nice to see that most of the girls in the college understand the importance of oral contraceptives and seem to be on the pill.

 

[dalli_x]

No they don't. Quinn and Tommy have already broke their friendship in ep 7. Tommy says at the end of ep7 to Quinn when she didn't apologized " You aren't worth shit to me"
Tommy cares about DIKs, he may seems to be a cunt but deep down he wants the best for DIKs. He is a party crackhead, his plan with Quinn was to set the DIK mention with drugs and booze, unite HOTs and DIKs. That was his deal with Quinn, and she broke that trust because of this. You can go over the dialogue at the end.
And Quinn broke the deal for the moneys she needs it for her mother or father at Buddy's place. She doesn't give shit as long as she gets the money and destroying DIK mansion isn't meant shit to her.

Now where my theory stands seems fit to involve Dawe and Vinny. Both might have struck a deal, so Vinny helps Dawe through Nick so he could humiliate Cathy because he fails her classes for a long time and in return Vinny gets to destroy DIK mansion which is initiated by alphas and ended by him.
We don't have the motive behind Vinny doing this but I can list a few clues I got from the game that he is behind the destruction of mansion.

And I think the main antagonist of this game is none other than Vinny for the reasons:-
1) He has a drug business and is doing far better than Quinn, also knows Quinn and her dealer.
2) We don't know the real reason as to why he was kicked of DIKS and B&R.
3) When the aplhas trashed DIK mansion, the spray painted logos at the main hall and kitchen is different from one sprayed in every DIK personal room(something curvy while ones at the hall abd kitchen is straight).during the renovation when we meet Rusty, there is a sign of Eat A Bag of Diks which happens during the crash. If you look closely, the handwriting matches when we saw flashback of Vinny getting the library, painting something which I don't remember and could also been seen during several free roam in the dik mansion before mc covers it with tarp.
4) Nick room's wasn't destroyed and he mentions of meeting Vinny outside the campus from time to time. He was also very close friends with Vinny.
5) The black Mailer identity isn't revealed and that could be him(although it's too far fetched without any evidence)

Because of 1 and 4, it will not be Vinny or Nick. In the Freeroam event after the cum petition in EP2, Nick tells Rusty that he met him recently. I assume that Nick means Vinny. Rusty was kind of looking forward to seeing him again.

On point 1: If Vinny is better off than Quinn, why should he bother with such trifles as dealing in college? It's probably not worth any effort for Vinny. Accordingly, it would have to be something personal. He has no quarrel with Nick and Rusty, maybe not with the others either. But one of the DIK's remains. Tommy.

To point 2: We really don't know the real reason and therefore we can only speculate. What we do know is that Tommy and Vinny are not the best of friends. Vinny has also scratched the position of Tommy within the DIK's. I can well imagine that Tommy fooled Vinny and everyone believed Tommy. Including Quinn. It many things possible. It could also be related to Zoey. In the flashback we saw that Zoey was on the beach and told the MC that she had a new boyfriend. Maybe the new boyfriend was Vinny and Tommy was fucking Aerith with Zoey. Yeah, I know, how did Tommy get to the beach? There is a picture of Rusty fucking Aerith on the beach. Where Rusty is, Tommy will not be far away. But all in all I think it's personal between Tommy and Vinny.

To point 3: That could be something. Yes. But if you want to blame someone else, you do something like that.

On point 4: The fact that Nick's room wasn't destroyed is actually the most significant indication to me that Vinny and Nick had nothing to do with it. It's such a stupid attempt to blame someone else that you have to laugh or cry about it.

On point 5: The blackmailers will be Dawe, Tommy and Quinn working together. Let's start with Troy and the guitar. Troy got a very distinct feature from Tommy. A fat left blue eye. Tommy gives the guitar to Quinn, who goes to Chad and tells him that Sage has always wanted to play guitar. Chad, dumb as a post, gives Sage the guitar. Somehow Tommy and Quinn once talked about having to break up Sage and Chad if they wanted their party deal to work. Quinn has noticed that Sage is attracted to the MC. And hey, that's a plan of Quinn's that worked. Signs and wonders are happening. Dawe should probably become president because Sage doesn't like Dawe. That would clear up the blackmail photos for Dawe and Chad. Yes all this for the party fun. Sage now has no connection to the Alpha's. But the MC is now on the Sage path. Good for Tommy. An expectant DIK and Sage in a relationship, hahaha, the party can start. Please remember the scene before Derek and the MC drink the shots of Mel and Sarah. Tommy asks the MC if he wants to fuck Sage. When the MC says no, Tommy replies that the MC should do it. Now there is only one problem for Quinn. Chad is fighting with the MC and the Alphas are under surveillance by the counselors. Yes, that's a loss of revenue in your drug business. Okay counselor Cathy has to go and a new outlet has to be found. (Preps) Josy is also there in the meantime and Quinn can brain fuck Tommy into helping with the Cathy cluck. For the preps, Quinn uses Sage because HOT's coffers need to be replenished. Maybe Quinn took a little bit from the Hot's cash box to keep the drugs funded. It all adds up and that's without Vinny and Nick. I even think Nick is sympathetic to the MC. The MC never had any problems with Nick. Maybe Vinny is even the MC's brother. But that is also only speculation.

 

[dalli_x]

I've never given the nerds a second thought, since they seemed tame and timid, but after thinking about what you've said, there could be a possibility of the Cluck being posted by the nerds. After all, they are nerds, and stereotypically, they'd be good with tech stuff. They might not even have needed the DIKs' laptop, and could've just hacked into their Rooster account to upload that picture of Cathy, that could have been taken by a drone through a window or a crack (since we don't actually know the building in which Cathy was captured).

I could imagine the nerds helping the MC. The MC gets along well with Magnar and no subordinate nerd will challenge the Terminator. Then there's the one guy with the chess club. The MC save Bert from the Weckie. The nerds are probably just pissed when the MC gets the job at the library. But the guys will spy on everyone. Yes knowledge is power and if the MC is a friend of the nerds, maybe he can and may use that knowledge. At the end of EP7, Magnar is standing in front of the Preps mansion. Well I am curious about EP8.

 

[`Ray`]

At the end of EP7, Magnar is standing in front of the Preps mansion. Well I am curious about EP8.

I do not remember that...could you please share a screenshot if possible.

 

[dalli_x]

I do not remember that...could you please share a screenshot if possible.

 

[felicemastronzo]

How many times have I seen this kind of question and answered it ?

I agree that since MC had sex multiple times with other LI's, people ask why not yet with Jill?

First of all, this game is a storytelling one not a porn game on main basis. The story is the main focus of DPC not the sex scenes. Things with Jill are going good and it is actually possible that in ep8 or ep9, we have sex with Jill.

Still...I really don't understand why people are so eager for MC to have sex with Jill. I want it to happen as well but I am enjoying other aspects as well. Dates with her are satisfactory and it's no fun to bang a girl every 10s.

Guys just run for pussy, not for the love and chemistry...but I am a vanilla guy.
*Whispers- Everyone has their own tastes Robert*...*Right*

This opinion is given by a normal guy who cherishes love and chemistry more than sex...classy

I don't know if the presence of Jill is enough to say that the center of BADIK is not sex....

can a game with the sex marathons of the fifth and seventh chapters be said not to be essentially a porn game?

even the worst AVN are full of dialogues that try to create a connection between player and characters, and try to create a story in which more or less you can fit the different sex scenes, in this certainly BADIK is superior.

without sex what is left? a soap opera story, with forced twists and situations, you can watch it anyway but it would lose a lot

 

[phill_leotardo]

How many times have I seen this kind of question and answered it ?

I agree that since MC had sex multiple times with other LI's, people ask why not yet with Jill?

First of all, this game is a storytelling one not a porn game on main basis. The story is the main focus of DPC not the sex scenes. Things with Jill are going good and it is actually possible that in ep8 or ep9, we have sex with Jill.

Still...I really don't understand why people are so eager for MC to have sex with Jill. I want it to happen as well but I am enjoying other aspects as well. Dates with her are satisfactory and it's no fun to bang a girl every 10s.

Guys just run for pussy, not for the love and chemistry...but I am a vanilla guy.
*Whispers- Everyone has their own tastes Robert*...*Right*

This opinion is given by a normal guy who cherishes love and chemistry more than sex...classy

People need to STRONGLY STOP saying a game is not porn. YES IT IS. Every thread with a half decent story game, people overly attached say it's not a porn game, stop bullshitting. It's a completely porn game. You have sex on rooftops, in public, you cheat, MMF, anal, drugs, MILF, prostitution with very little build up and reason behind other than having a big dick.

Please somebody start a fucking compaign to end this bullshit. If it wasn't a porn game it would explicitly have "no sex content" tag as games that are not porn games DO ACTUALLY have that tag.

 

[Marley300]

Hey Don't Axe Me Please
I've read all 7 HP books ! Even the Cursed Child (kinda which I didn't )
And I know that you love GOT but I never read the books... I'll get around to it but the series finale killed all my hype of the franchise...
But I'm on this site almost every day ! Isn't that enough to pass the nerd purity test ???

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[dalli_x]

So I have found Vinny now. He is sitting on the train with the dog. Maybe he is the brother of the MC. MC and Jill talked about pets on their first date. The MC would have liked to have a dog. The screenshots of the train even show what happens in EP8. Wow. DPC is really planning way ahead. Check out the posters on the walls of the train. On the right side is a poster about Halloween and on the left side we see a poster with PP and Y. Plan Party.

And somehow another spooky picture. Do you see the guy behind Maya? Look at his hand. You could almost believe that the spots on his hand, especially on the fingertips, are red with blood. By the way, this is also the game passage where Maya tells the MC that she has a boyfriend. Is that maybe already Vinny?

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[Marley300]

I've never given the nerds a second thought, since they seemed tame and timid, but after thinking about what you've said, there could be a possibility of the Cluck being posted by the nerds. After all, they are nerds, and stereotypically, they'd be good with tech stuff. They might not even have needed the DIKs' laptop, and could've just hacked into their Rooster account to upload that picture of Cathy, that could have been taken by a drone through a window or a crack (since we don't actually know the building in which Cathy was captured).

Maybe that scene of Ron and Bert in the hallway when you choose to stay with Derek was a precursor for this whole shenanigan. They were discussing their plan to frame the DIKs and ruin their reputation by sabotaging their Rooster account while testing out the drone to ensure that it was fully functioning.

I never thought that Cathy Picture could have been a drone shot. Nice catch And maybe that other nerd Eugene is in on it too !

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I could imagine the nerds helping the MC. The MC gets along well with Magnar and no subordinate nerd will challenge the Terminator. Then there's the one guy with the chess club. The MC save Bert from the Weckie. The nerds are probably just pissed when the MC gets the job at the library. But the guys will spy on everyone. Yes knowledge is power and if the MC is a friend of the nerds, maybe he can and may use that knowledge. At the end of EP7, Magnar is standing in front of the Preps mansion. Well I am curious about EP8.

Magnar will remain friends with the MC until the end, as long as nothing happens with Sally.
I'm pretty sure that the nerds hate the preps like everybody and they could possibly help us take them down with information. Helping the chess club guy and saving Bert from that wedgie are optional and the nerds don't like you if you go full massive DIK...
But hey I could be wrong ! The nerds being responsible for Cathy is just a theory ! And you are the theory expert.

 

[JETracktor]

Hey Don't Axe Me Please
I've read all 7 HP books ! Even the Cursed Child (kinda which I didn't )
And I know that you love GOT but I never read the books... I'll get around to it but the series finale killed all my hype of the franchise...
But I'm on this site almost every day ! Isn't that enough to pass the nerd purity test ???

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Try Terry Pratchett's books (if you didn't before ofc). The "Guards! Guards!" my all time favorite, it's just hilarious.

 

[chronomate]

View attachment 1253634

I hadn't seen this paragraph before, and maybe I'm late to the party with this idea, but the wording of that last sentence jostled something from my brain. People (jokingly?) think Bella is homicidal, and wonder about the make-out scene in the library where MC's inner monologue says something like "if I'd known I'd have called for help". What if she's not homicidal, but suicidal instead? We already know that she's deeply emotionally conflicted about her budding relationship with MC and her absentee husband, and that a lot of that conflict manifests as guilt. Maybe DPC's warning about being "in a dark period of your life" is a content warning for an eventual suicide plotline?

(Again, apologies is this has already been brought up and discussed, I've not been keeping up with the thread, to say nothing of the thousands of pages of posts that were here before I ever knew this game existed.)

 

[DavDR]

I'm glad he's apparently being productive, but at this rate it might be August before I have a second set of data points for my charts.



In all seriousness, do you think that merely telling Sage she fell head-over-heals in love with a gay man will help her move on with her life if Chad still refuses to discuss the matter with her? I'm not seeing the benefit myself.

Don't get me wrong, Sage does deserve a proper explanation from Chad, but it's the from Chad that really matters here. For whatever reason, she invested a lot of herself into that relationship and he did not. Learning that Chad was lying to her even more fundamentally than she already thought seems likely to make matters worse unless she can also understand why this happened and thus what lessons she needs to take from the miserable experience.

And sadly, that's just not information the MC can provide because Chad being gay is only a small part of the explanation. The MC simply doesn't know the rest of it (at least as of right now); we don't know why Chad entered into the relationship in the first place. It could be he started with honest intentions only to find himself stuck when he realized he really was 100% gay (sort of like a couple who expects a child to save their marriage). Or it could be that he just saw Sage as convenient cover and never really gave a rat's ass about her.

Those are extremely different scenarios that would probably draw very different reactions from Sage, yet the MC's information can't really distinguish between them. And everything we've seen about Sage suggests that giving her wildly incomplete information won't result in her calmly seeking to complete the information; no, she'll probably assume the worst and lash out immediately. Which might just make everything WORSE if it turns out not to have been the worst case scenario.

That's why I think the MC should be slow to spill the beans on Chad's secret. It's not that he has some obligation to Chad specifically, but it's extremely unwise to reveal explosive, context-free information willy-nilly. Sage needs closure, not rumor.



Yeah, that's a nice moment to show that Tommy isn't a one-note villain while still keeping him very much Tommy.

Nope, witholding that info from Sage is basically saying "I know what's best for you". Try that with any woman IRL and see how it works.

 

[JETracktor]

I hadn't seen this paragraph before, and maybe I'm late to the party with this idea, but the wording of that last sentence jostled something from my brain. People (jokingly?) think Bella is homicidal, and wonder about the make-out scene in the library where MC's inner monologue says something like "if I'd known I'd have called for help". What if she's not homicidal, but suicidal instead? We already know that she's deeply emotionally conflicted about her budding relationship with MC and her absentee husband, and that a lot of that conflict manifests as guilt. Maybe DPC's warning about being "in a dark period of your life" is a content warning for an eventual suicide plotline?

(Again, apologies is this has already been brought up and discussed, I've not been keeping up with the thread, to say nothing of the thousands of pages of posts that were here before I ever knew this game existed.)

Yeah, I have the same feeling about Bella. That's why player should either pursue just Bella or totally ignore her. Any other option gonna be devastating.