Okay, at least we are in agreement about Episode being badly executed. So on the Episode 5 stuff, if you agreed to just be friends with them, Episode 4 has the two women express how much they love each other. That was where they were left off. Yet instantly in their scene in episode 5, Josie is passionate about the MC being there for her and shrugs off Maya's offer. Maya, in turn, doesn't seem bothered at all by that nor does she indicate any kind of internal conflict about being jealous of the woman she claims to love. Josie doesn't care at all when Maya disappears nor shows any interest in her well-being. any Instead both of them, depending on the choice, will make it clear how deeply attracted they are to the MC. Does any of this sound like reasonable behavior from two people who had just declared their love for each other?
As for the two part thing, my only response to that is so what? We can only react to the story has been told so far and I don't know how to comment on what might be because that is a complete hypothetical. However, I guess I could ask that if the story fails to set up a meaningful story beat this badly, then can it really recover? I mean, based on the current presentation, what reason is there to care about the Maya/Josie relationship if the game itself has gone out of its way to make it feel meaningless?
Without going back and replaying that particular scene I can't really give you any more discussion on it. As I said from my perspective that scene and the following dialogue with Josy where she admits she still has feelings for MC both seemed fine to me. And I'm not really sure what you mean in the second paragraph I wasn't trying to discuss hypotheticals with you.
Ironically, even when MC is calling one of them near the end of ep5 and video-call is starting turns out that they moved beds together beforehand because "were waiting for you". Yes, M/J relationship looks sorta like bs at this point, but I'm curious why you catiously pointed out that in particular.
Writing simply far from being brilliant here overall but not necessarily due to DPC's incompetence, personally I consider him as a very capable writer but due to the fact that the game is trying to entertain too much, unfortunately. It also is trying to create an illusion that MC is not the fucking center of the universe and so much is out of his control yet in fact it's kinda the opposite. As I said at first ep5 impressions, my biggest gripe was about Tommy/Rusty/whole DIK bunch being way too passive and it was too obvious. The whole picture started to falling apart and M/J situation is just a cherry on top. Said that, it's just an episode and I hope trend will turn around somehow.
I think this is a good take on it to be honest. Episode 5 was pretty glaring in this regard. I said it jokingly in another post about how in Episode 6 I expect MC to cure cancer and corona virus and fix the world hunger crisis because Ep 5 was just gratuitous in how much it poured it on.
While there is a lot of positives to say of this game, there is one part of the game that I find so badly written that it is genuinely distracting to me at the moment. I want to stress that this is my opinion, although I will try to justify with the presentation in the game, and that I do respect the creator of the game despite the harsh language I'm about to use.
The Maya/Josie storyline and character dynamic are bafflingly badly written in a game that seems to be putting a lot of weight in fleshing out every character. To support my argument, I present a single question. Aside from the flashback, has there been a single scene in the game where it feels like those two have any genuine affection for each other? I'll even lower the bar. Has there been a single scene in the College part of it where it feels like Maya is even sexually attracted to women? I'm discounting the love declaration here myself is that kind of a scene needs to be supported by other scenes to feel meaningful, yet there's nothing before or after to indicate that these two even really like each other that much. I mean, if after this part they did that scene with say Camila and Mona, could you argue it didn't feel more earned than anything with Maya and Josie.
The reason this makes the whole story so weird is that the game established that Maya's character beat was that she lost everything by choosing to stay true to herself and is now desperate for tuition money due to her bigoted dad cutting her off. Yet, as mentioned above, nothing in the game supports that she has any affection for Josie, even likes girls and Maya basically started lusting after the first guy she met on campus. So what is her, and I'm not even touching Josie here, journey exactly? What character arc is even preventing Maya from being in a significant relationship with the MC? Not her love for Josie, as in the game it doesn't exist, nor any doubts about her sexuality, as Maya clearly got over any hesitations about liking girls. With all the other major LIs, you can see that story, but with these two, there's nothing. Based on the presentation in the game so far, there's no doubt that they would choose the MC in a heartbeat as they don't seem to be in any kind of relationship with each other.
While there is a lot of positives to say of this game, there is one part of the game that I find so badly written that it is genuinely distracting to me at the moment. I want to stress that this is my opinion, although I will try to justify with the presentation in the game, and that I do respect the creator of the game despite the harsh language I'm about to use.
The Maya/Josie storyline and character dynamic are bafflingly badly written in a game that seems to be putting a lot of weight in fleshing out every character. To support my argument, I present a single question. Aside from the flashback, has there been a single scene in the game where it feels like those two have any genuine affection for each other? I'll even lower the bar. Has there been a single scene in the College part of it where it feels like Maya is even sexually attracted to women? I'm discounting the love declaration here myself is that kind of a scene needs to be supported by other scenes to feel meaningful, yet there's nothing before or after to indicate that these two even really like each other that much. I mean, if after this part they did that scene with say Camila and Mona, could you argue it didn't feel more earned than anything with Maya and Josie.
The reason this makes the whole story so weird is that the game established that Maya's character beat was that she lost everything by choosing to stay true to herself and is now desperate for tuition money due to her bigoted dad cutting her off. Yet, as mentioned above, nothing in the game supports that she has any affection for Josie, even likes girls and Maya basically started lusting after the first guy she met on campus. So what is her, and I'm not even touching Josie here, journey exactly? What character arc is even preventing Maya from being in a significant relationship with the MC? Not her love for Josie, as in the game it doesn't exist, nor any doubts about her sexuality, as Maya clearly got over any hesitations about liking girls. With all the other major LIs, you can see that story, but with these two, there's nothing. Based on the presentation in the game so far, there's no doubt that they would choose the MC in a heartbeat as they don't seem to be in any kind of relationship with each other.
I think you hate how the game forces Josy and Maya on the MC, that was a problem with Acting Lessons too, but them as characters and their relationship have been around since the first Episode until now. So much that we have to wait until EP 4 to have the possibility of breaking with them.
Here, when you run in to them at the mansion, Josie is enthusiastic the MC, who I had reject them in the previous part, be there for support when she met her dad and when Maya asked if Josie wanted her there, the response was almost literally 'Sure, whatever'. It was such an absurd scene that I assumed that it was building for something, but nope, as Maya doesn't show any jealousy or even being bothered by it, and when Maya disappears, Josie doesn't seem really interested at all where Maya went. Then both of them, depending on the choice, again expressed how much they lusted after the MC for reasons I can't comprehend. Although Josie's dorm room scene was unintentionally hilarious as, again based on what the game has shown us, anything to support that it would even be a choice to Josie.
This is on point on so many levels, i played as a dik route, got rejected just to see them act like nothing ever happened and josy asking for your help like it's the most natural thing in the world, that part made no sense, she should have asked maya first but for her she was just an afterthought, the mc was the priority, that was such an odd scene for the dik path.
Ok guys, now I found the perfect "theory"(definitely not a fanfic). MC is actually both Burgmeister and Royce, also the long lost brother of Rusty. MC's mother is actually a Royce, and his father is a Burgmeister... But they hid that fact growing up so that MC wouldn't be a rich snob when he got to B&R. Rusty doesn't use Russell as his name because when he was little, MC used to call him Rusty and he liked that.
Now, you have the dream : Jill is your sister and Bella is the stepmother. Josy is actually Bella's daughter so you can have the incest dream you always had.
If I tried a bit harder I could fit Sage and Maya to the story as well, but I'm tired for now. Will try better next time I promise
This theory may make no sense for you, but this is what I believe. I realized this from Ep5's Bella and Jill scene. It's actually pretty obvious, if you look hard enough you too will see that.
Without going back and replaying that particular scene I can't really give you any more discussion on it. As I said from my perspective that scene and the following dialogue with Josy where she admits she still has feelings for MC both seemed fine to me. And I'm not really sure what you mean in the second paragraph I wasn't trying to discuss hypotheticals with you.
And my question was that what before that had implied that the choice would be difficult at all for Josie? She doesn't express any kind of care, affection or concern for Maya in the literal scenes before it? Also the hypothetical is referring that this is only two episodes and we don't know what comes next as I can only discuss what is being told now.
I think you hate how the game forces Josy and Maya on the MC, that was a problem with Acting Lessons too, but them as characters and their relationship have been around since the first Episode until now. So much that we have to wait until EP 4 to have the possibility of breaking with them.
While I hated that you couldn't just pursue the friend alone in Acting Lessons, but instead forced the player to the poly-romance, but at least I got the dynamic between the friends in that game. Here, the dynamic between Josie and Maya, especially considering how important they supposedly are to each other, is baffling to say the least.
So first of all, I realize it is a game, but ultimatley I can only discuss a story based on what it tells us, not what I have to do heavy lifting to interpret it to tell us. To be honest, I kind of find the extrapolation and interpretation justifications always weak as that shouldn't be assumed to be the work the player to do. Especially in situations like this where that relationship is so crucial for the character story.
I think you hate how the game forces Josy and Maya on the MC, that was a problem with Acting Lessons too, but them as characters and their relationship have been around since the first Episode until now. So much that we have to wait until EP 4 to have the possibility of breaking with them.
I think it’s forced nature is the root of the problems. I’ve long suspected the route was written as optional and retroactively made the central plot. The fact it’s forced creates a lot of these issues people are raising in my opinion.
Ive zero evidence for it actually being a rewrite but as many people are saying here there’s a forced superficiality to it all that is incongruous with the overall writing. They occasionally act like they’re all desperately in love with one another but because it’s a central route we haven’t chosen (or can outright reject) the plot line exists in a bizarre limbo where they have to maintain nothing is serious between everyone.
MC’s reaction to the lies in Ep4 are that of someone much more invested than the game maintains. The girls are much more into the MC than the “let natural strings form” bollocks lets on. Nobody elaborates and they’re constantly holding back. everytime they build up steam or approach character development the brakes are slammed on lest the neutral route get too serious.
It’s inconsistent and it feels like they’ve stripped back a lot of everyone’s feelings to make the route more “neutral” so you’re not inherently cheating on any other route. I thought actively choosing them would fix this in Ep5 and they undeniably did get better... somewhat. Still not enough.
I think Maya/Josy suffer because their route has been hamstrung by being unavoidable.
This is on point on so many levels, i played as a dik route, got rejected just to see them act like nothing ever happened and josy asking for your help like it's the most natural thing in the world, that part made no sense, she should have asked maya first but for her she was just an afterthought, the mc was the priority, that was such an odd scene for the dik path.
It's even more bizarre in the CHICK path. When Josie shrugged off Maya's suggestion, I just kept thinking that it has to be building for something, but no. There's no repercussions, no reference to it, no sign of it bothering Maya, nothing. It was seriously so astonishingly weird scene as why write that reaction from Josie to begin with? Why not just state that Maya was going with Josie to begin with, but the latter also wanted the MC there?
I think it’s forced nature is the root of the problems. I’ve long suspected the route was written as optional and retroactively made the central plot. The fact it’s forced creates a lot of these issues people are raising in my opinion.
Ive zero evidence for it actually being a rewrite but as many people are saying here there’s a forced superficiality to it all that is incongruous with the overall writing. They occasionally act like they’re all desperately in love with one another but because it’s a central route we haven’t chosen (or can outright reject) the plot line exists in a bizarre limbo where they have to maintain nothing is serious between everyone.
MC’s reaction to the lies in Ep4 are that of someone much more invested than the game maintains. The girls are much more into the MC than the “let natural strings form” bollocks lets on. Nobody elaborates and they’re constantly holding back. everytime they build up steam or approach character development the brakes are slammed on lest the neutral route get too serious.
It’s inconsistent and it feels like they’ve stripped back a lot of everyone’s feelings to make the route more “neutral” so you’re not inherently cheating on any other route. I thought actively choosing them would fix this in Ep5 and they undeniably did get better... somewhat. Still not enough.
I think Maya/Josy suffer because their route has been hamstrung by being unavoidable.
The forced nature of it just makes it even more baffling. I mean, the fact that the two don't seem to care for each other all is still there, but I don't think there's another story as forced as this. Especially since I think almost every other major LI sex scene is a two step choice, you first have to choose to make it a possibility and then you are given a choice to back away at the end. With Maya, though, in Episode 3 if you choose to help her, she will tell the MC about her sexuality and then the game will force a sex scene between the two with no way to back away from it. And even if you don't, it doesn't change the MC's reaction.
Although I still can't get over how ridiculous the MC feeling betrayed was, especially if he was pursuing other romantic interests.
the best thing about this game is that it makes me change my mind constantly bout girls, their background, their characteristic development, choosing the best girl for MC from very beginning to the end,... Finally I found it, now im all in Jill at all cost.Im afraid that a creator always has smt deepshit going on next updates so I make another backup file for both Josi and Maya route lul
Can A kind soul please post a save where you stay with Sage? (Episode 5)
I'm doing a playthrough where I'm pursuing Sage however in Episode 5 my MC decides to stay at Bella's which I assume to be because she likes MC espite the fact that I didn't stay with her in episode 4 (didn't have the option to as I didn't even visit her at the library) which also leads me to assume that she has to dislike MC for you to be able to stay with Sage (if you're on her route)?
The forced nature of it just makes it even more baffling. I mean, the fact that the two don't seem to care for each other all is still there, but I don't think there's another story as forced as this. Especially since I think almost every other major LI sex scene is a two step choice, you first have to choose to make it a possibility and then you are given a choice to back away at the end. With Maya, though, in Episode 3 if you choose to help her, she will tell the MC about her sexuality and then the game will force a sex scene between the two with no way to back away from it. And even if you don't, it doesn't change the MC's reaction.
Although I still can't get over how ridiculous the MC feeling betrayed was, especially if he was pursuing other romantic interests.
I think the problem with it being forced is the main issue with the whole story line. I did a whole playthrough actively avoiding Maya and Josy and picking choices that make you lose points with them but they still somehow fall in love with the MC and have their Whole drama regardless of what you do.
It was seriously so astonishingly weird scene as why write that reaction from Josie to begin with? Why not just state that Maya was going with Josie to begin with, but the latter also wanted the MC there?
The only thing i can think of watching that scene is that josy cares about the mc and not that much about maya, it would have been way better to get a real dik options to cut all ties with them at the end of ep 4.
Can A kind soul please post a save where you stay with Sage? (Episode 5)
I'm doing a playthrough where I'm pursuing Sage however in Episode 5 my MC decides to stay at Bella's which I assume to be because she likes MC espite the fact that I didn't stay with her in episode 4 (didn't have the option to as I didn't even visit her at the library) which also leads me to assume that she has to dislike MC for you to be able to stay with Sage (if you're on her route)?
My response question would be that what scene outside of that flashback would imply that Maya and Josie had any feelings to rediscover? They spent a lot of time together in episode 4. Was there any interaction there which implied for longing feelings for each other, any hesitation or doubt in their interactions? And of course in episode 5 Maya walked away because it hurt to see a happy father and daughter. So considering the discussion with the MC afterwards, how would that discussion played out differently if it had been a random female student hugging their tearful father? Was there anything to imply that it was worse because Maya was jealous of the woman she supposedly loved? Or her being bothered by the fact that Josie literally didn't seem to care at all if Maya was there to support her?
I'm not saying that you shouldn't enjoy the threesome path or that you couldn't spin your own story to fill those blanks, but for it to be an argument for the story not being bad, at least for me, it needs to be supported by actual events in the game. And I'll be honest here, when I replayed it for this part, I tried paying more attention to the Maya/Josie interactions and I don't really know where a lot of the stuff suggested here was really indicated.
When the MC leaves the dorm room we see M&J having an argument but then when Josy uses that in-joke about giving a "diarrhoea shit" about Maya, it eases some of the tensions and they somewhat relax a bit. This, for me, shows that affection is still there because despite everything they've been through for probably months now, all it took was one jokey comment to put a smile on both their faces. If two people, be they lovers or friends, didn't still have affection for each other, then that in-joke would have fallen flat because it wouldn't be a happy memory anymore.
As others have pointed out, we don't see Maya and Josy together for much of that episode so we don't know how they acted when alone together, but they were probably at least happy to be back together, even if there was a tension between them knowing that they've been with the MC but that the other one doesn't know that. For all we know, they were probably walking on eggshells the whole time and had very short, stunted conversations where they were just trying to get along with each other and not get drawn in to any arguments.
I do think that some of the way it's been written wasn't very good, and you're right that Josy should have turned to Maya first before going to meet her Dad, but I think Maya's emotional reaction to seeing Josy with her Dad was on point and probably had a lot to do with the fact that it was Josy because this is someone close to her who is close to her Dad and it hurts more as a result.
Also, you're right that some of the stuff I say is "filling in the blanks", but that's how you critically evaluate a piece of work like this; you look at the characters, story, etc, and hypothesise how and why certain things are the way they are in order to make some sense of them. Some people might think it's a load of BS, but I enjoy it and sometimes it can be good to put yourself in someone else's shoes and think differently about things.
Firstly, I always felt as though Josy in this situation was just giving Maya what she wanted and experimenting a bit with another girl and that the deeper feelings came later for Josy. Secondly, we know they made out but don't how far they went at that time or how far they've gone since.
Personally, I hope we get to have a conversation with them about this, maybe when they realise they can't fake a threesome for the Scavenger Hunt and decide they have to do it with the MC (at least on the poly path). Would be nice if, at this point, we could a nice, open discussion and find out just far they've gone with each other.
Can A kind soul please post a save where you stay with Sage? (Episode 5)
I'm doing a playthrough where I'm pursuing Sage however in Episode 5 my MC decides to stay at Bella's which I assume to be because she likes MC espite the fact that I didn't stay with her in episode 4 (didn't have the option to as I didn't even visit her at the library) which also leads me to assume that she has to dislike MC for you to be able to stay with Sage (if you're on her route)?
I think staying at Bella's is just part of the story. Don't personally have a save where Bella dislikes MC so not sure but I think you stay there regardless.
