Blender vs Daz3D: What's Best for You?

[Saki_Sliz]

Why not use both? They're not mutually exclusive. A lot of Daz content is made in Blender.

One of the reasons I need to come back and reword this is that one of the points I want to make is that you can use both, get the best of both worlds. Blender is a tool you can add to your collection to do more, along side what you can already do in daz. (this is assuming most users are new and going to start using daz and maybe blender later, or have daz and are thinking about blender)

These software are aim at different users and workflow. Neither one is inferior to another. They both serve as tools to help people create things. It's up to us on what tools fit our belt and what we use these tools for.

exactly! But the issue is, lets say I am a new user and I am trying to get started. I don't know anything. I hear about daz and blender and various tools. I don't know about you, but I am the type of person who does a lot of research before I start something. I want to make sure I know if I am getting my money's worth, or I want to be confident I know where to start and what I need to do when I first start using a new program. I don't want to go in feeling blind, trapped, and overwhelmed. This post is made for people like me, who want the information and understanding. Sometime I find people's opinions and summaries to be useless to me, because everyone starts to repeat the same point, I actually want to know the software, what is it like to use, as in, what steps do I need to take. Do I have to model a shirt myself, where can I download one, etc. I want to know what to expect, not what other people feel. The point of this post is to walk through things I think are the important aspect needed to make a decision for different types of users, to lay it out raw, not condense it into a summary per say.

 

[Egglock]

open source always prevail! you dont have to wait for the development team to update, you go do it yourself then commit your work to git.

I wasn't necessary talking about one scope, I was talking about the whole picture of Blender and Daz3d. It's about the user base surrounding these two software. Often times when upcoming dev's browse through these post, a lot of the information aren't strictly about the personal experiences or what the software has done for the dev's but more so about the feeling towards the particular software. I was trying to express the idea, that it shouldn't be about what software is inferior to one another but it's use and what it can do to fit one's development needs.

You say, most dev's understand Python but that doesn't necessary translate to knowing how to model, rig, texturing, compositing, animating ect. These all require a different set of skills and mindset. You wouldn't ask an artist to evaluate the code, nor would ask a programmer, advice on improving one's art.

But the issue is, lets say I am a new user and I am trying to get started. I don't know anything. I hear about daz and blender and various tools.

That's why I pointed out that we shouldn't be debating whether one software is better than the other. And focus on providing our own experiences and knowledge to those who are new to the world of vn/game development.

I don't like Daz3d, and will never use it. But I'm not going to go out there and tell people not to use it because I don't like it. Same with Blender, I love the software but I'm not going to say this is the best software and you should use it.

 

[wankmachineman]

You say, most dev's understand Python but that doesn't necessary translate to knowing how to model, rig, texturing, compositing, animating ect. These all require a different set of skills and mindset. You wouldn't ask an artist to evaluate the code, nor would ask a programmer, advice on improving one's art.

Cant really agree on that, a dev should understand how the 3d is handled within his/her game. With that comes a lot of knowledge about pretty much all your points except modelling.
I'm well aware most devs today take the easy road and use some sort of tool to unburden their development process, but in reality none of them ain't even good (maybe UE constitutes as good for a free tool), but with actions like that just breeds a new underdeveloped developer.

I'd say someone starting out modelling SHOULD pick blender and not Daz3D if they really want an overall knowledge of how it all works cause to be successful you gotta learn, going the easy way won't help you in the long run.

For example, look at unity developers using "shitsharp" language, my eyes bleed when i see unity getting attention. You want to make a buck of your creations, of course you wouldn't pick something as easy to decompile as .NET or C#.
What's the point in creating games that are the lowest difficulty to crack/mod?

You really want to understand how it all works? Then you gotta fucking work for it.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

That's why I pointed out that we shouldn't be debating whether one software is better than the other. And focus on providing our own experiences and knowledge to those who are new to the world of vn/game development.

It sounds like we are saying the same thing. I am not comparing or debating the two, I am just trying to provide what it is like to try and use one or other, give the reader a raw experience. But I am avoiding trying to provide my own experience and knowledge and opinion as much as possible. This is to try to keep the read as short as possible, and to make sure I am not corrupting my own work.

I'm well aware most devs today take the easy road and use some sort of tool to unburden their development process, but in reality none of them ain't even good (maybe UE constitutes as good for a free tool), but with actions like that just breeds a new underdeveloped developer.

I'd say someone starting out modelling SHOULD pick blender and not Daz3D if they really want an overall knowledge of how it all works cause to be successful you gotta learn, going the easy way won't help you in the long run.

I agree, many, and mostly new or non technically skilled users, do this. they take the easy road. as to why this is, it may be some issue with humanity or the current way society works, but it is not important. I just know that many will take the easy way, and I am not going to shame anyone for doing that. most of the time I enjoy the games these people were able to make because at least they made something. There risked humility to share something. As someone with a fair amount of skill, I have a hard time sharing things because I have higher expectations of myself and am more critical of my work. As a result I tend to be a perfectionist who doesn't really complete anything. But if I have learned anything in the STEM academic community, the most important thing is to first get people's feet wet before we through them in. It is my hope that new users read this post, feel that daz is easier, but blender will still be in the back of their mind, so once they have gotten comfortable with daz, they start to wonder about blender, and in general try to continue to improve themselves. Basically I am trying to get people to use blender, but make them think it was their idea

 

[wankmachineman]

I just know that many will take the easy way, and I am not going to shame anyone for doing that. most of the time I enjoy the games these people were able to make because at least they made something. There risked humility to share something.

I can understand some of what you're saying but just look at rpg maker for instance, almost every game is the same. To the moon pretty much killed the whole engine.
Today RPGM just makes us(me at least) cringe, the whole artstyle is always the same and never any new gameplay other than top down running around in 2d world....
If people would pick their own path. Creating their own engine to build their game upon, then we'd have more variation and they'd probably make a few extra $$$.
Unique is good for devs, it creates much more possibilities.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

If people would pick their own path. Creating their own engine to build their game upon, then we'd have more variation and they'd probably make a few extra $$$.
Unique is good for devs, it creates much more possibilities.

I agree, but then, how do we motivate people to go beyond being lazy? beyond just good enough. How do we encourage someone who is home alone, anonymous on the internet, doing work for what initially seems to be for nothing, making a game because it seems interesting, to push past their fears and actually do the hard work to make a better game, with out anyone there to encourage them? there are lots of ways we could solve the issue. such as try to pull them into a community where we could encourage them, we could be YouTubers who tries to make videos on making game, or in this case, make a post that tries to uncover the hidden mysteries of the art making workflow so that there is no hidden monsters to fear to be found. Basically, I am trying to get people to do better, without directly telling them, rhetorical theory basically.

 

[TBall]

I think it all depends on the outcome a developer wants to bring about. Let us be honest, it takes some level of determination and a willingness to endure frustration to improve at any program, skill or endeavor. For many, Daz3d gives them what they need to succeed at bringing a story or game to life. A developer may want to use Blender, Maya, Zbrush, 3DCoat or any other 3D modeling/sculpting application, but the cost in time, money, and / or frustration may outweigh the benefits for their particular game idea. I am assuming that people who use Daz3d have already put in time to learn how it operates and how to fit it into their game idea. A 3D modeling app may help them create additional content but is it worth their time, effort, and sanity. There are videos on YouTube and Daz3d forum posts that talk about importing props form blender to Daz3d.

I believe that developers who want to improve will do so, and those who don't will either quit or stay where they are. In addition, I would not call someone lazy because they have a different method for making a game than I would prefer. The problem is that "good enough" is a subjective standard. What is beyond good enough to you may be a totally different standard to another developer. I believe your heart is in the right place, as you want beginners who start with Daz3d to someday consider other software to supplement their Daz3d content and skills. It may help them along if you showed them something you made in blender being brought back into Daz3d and it looks just as good as what is already in Daz. Or something made in Daz3d being rendered in blender cycles or eevee if that's possible. Heck make a tutorial explaining potential pitfalls and issues they might encounter and what they can do to solve them. If you want people to do better without telling them just show them some quality work, and if they like it they will strive to know how to do it for themselves.

 

[wankmachineman]

Basically, I am trying to get people to do better, without directly telling them, rhetorical theory basically.

Best to be straight with them, not scared of coming of a bit hostile and they'll understand.

I believe that developers who want to improve will do so, and those who don't will either quit or stay where they are. In addition, I would not call someone lazy because they have a different method for making a game than I would prefer. The problem is that "good enough" is a subjective standard.

I see people claiming they know it all yet they only know the easy route. Just cause someone made a game don't mean they understand all the parts that must be implemented if you weren't using already built engine.
OpenGL can be frustrating but it's totally worth learning.
If you want to create amazing shit you gotta learn all about it to "bend" the code to your will, otherwise you can only rely on what the engine offers or maybe a good concept, it makes it alright for your first couple games. What will happen after that when you need to implement an idea/function that's outside your engines scope?
Your game can get broken/bugged cause the code you write is just based upon the engines api, that's when your player base die out cause you gotta learn proper game programming and users just waiting for update(depends of course of the problem at hand)....

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Best to be straight with them,

Not necessarily, do you have any empirical evidence to support such a claim? At best this works either with a group or with a direct, simple, and often personal request. Rhetorical theory, a field of writing, psychology, is a field of science which studies persuasion for the past 40 years. When it comes to users and readers on a form, they are isolated individuals, and as such think uniquely and independently. There is a bit of a mantra for talking to individuals. One does not trust the man who knocks and tells you what to do. One does not thank the man who tells you what's best to think. And one does not follow the man if one can not see themselves as the man. Basically, that means, if I make a post, telling people to use blender, it would be easily disregarded. If I tried to make it more persuasive using the standard stuff they teach in high school and 100 level college writing, there will still be the issue with users not being able to see themselves as being able to work as hard as me (take note of the very first and third reply to my post here). They can not see themselves in the man. I know in one such case, In learning to do art, I do not see myself practicing drawing lines for 2 or so years just to get good motor control over my shoulder just so I can make better sketches, scratchy lines are good enough for me. Instead of trying to be motivational with my post, I try to draw a clear path so that users can see what it is like to use both programs, pick one, and eventually try the other. Seeing the path ahead of time, they need not worry about seeing themselves in the man. They need not follow one individual, but a map. Which goes into some subcategory of rhetorical theory which I don't know what it's called. Basically, I am just doing things a bit different, not trying to be pushy. But then, I could be claiming to know it all, but I have only taken the easy route.

@TBall for your very first post in these forums, thanks for picking my post, as well as having the most spectacular comment, a clear sign of a well-rounded perspective. Everything you noted is absolutely correct, in every conceivable way. You hit every major consideration I had when making this post, or at least when I was first writing to MrBree. For those developers who want to improve, or are very close to the line dividing them from those who do not, I feel that one way to push this dividing line so more users become willing to exert themselves by their own will, is to try and clear up the hidden mysteries of how one makes art with these programs. What is the workflow, what does it entail, etc. By getting a glimpse of understanding, one may be able to better asses if the skill is within their willingness to learn, as well as having a better time learning if they have a bit of a blueprint to guide them. The hardest thing for me was knowing what topic words to google. In my conversation with MrBree in the

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, I stated that since I hadn't used daz, I was unqualified to fully recommend my blender workaround, and that idealy I would not only be able to show how to do it, maybe as a PDF, but to understand the process enough that I can give warnings for any possible gotcha's that new users may trip over. I most certainly plan to make this post much more visual, however, right now my time is very limited. Just answering comments is spending more time than I would like away from work and rest.

 

[wankmachineman]

@Saki_Sliz , for not having slept in over 30 hrs you sure made it hard for me to follow ^^. But out of experience with interactions online, I've learnt if you want to direct people in the "right" path, you ought to be harsh. Internet is full of hate, people start interacting defensive when getting told in a harsh manner, sure for the duration of the conversation/thread it might not make much sense. But afterwards they'll think about it and I've encountered many who had a compulsion to try it after I offensively told them to use it and they've thanked me further down the road.
You can't use the always be nice and tolerant with some cause they'll end up following the inexperienced who think the easy route is the best route.
You wrote a couple posts back about creating videos for people wanting to learn development, I think this is a bad way for the matter at hand.
A couple of years back when I decided to not use STL anymore and finally install a library. I was browsing youtube for guide for linking with my project cause I hoped when someone would visualize it so I'd just get it done the quickest way possible, but every tut around was dynamically linking the libraries and I search long for a proper static tut on youtube but it was mainly "quick fixes" to work around the issues. I decided to go with reading a very good written documentation page over C and am happy I did so. I still got so much with me from reading that. Even though I made shell scripts automating the process now, it remains stuck in my head.
Exactly the same goes for beginners in UNIX, don't watch the video tutorials. Go make yourself a good cup o' tea and take a relaxing position in your chair then start reading all the manpages you can find on the subject. Even though you might not need all that knowledge at this point, you'll probably need it later on, so be prepared.
You can never get enough of knowledge.

PS. "quick fixes", haha always reminds me of a junkie looking for their fast upward.

 

[CandleLight]

Thank you for your very informative post.

I am myself considering starting and it has been a great help. I think i Won't take your advice and start with Blender though, since I'm the type to want things pretty much exactly as I imagined them

Quick question since I really don't know anything yet, is there any difference in rendering quality between the softwares ?

Thanks again

 

[recreation]

Quick question since I really don't know anything yet, is there any difference in rendering quality between the softwares ?

I might be able to answer this question even though I've never delved deep into blender (like many people don't do with daz )
You can get great quality render with both. Blender might get the upperhand in the future with its new render engine, but it's not there yet. For a beginner it's easier to get high quality render in daz, you have to do and learn a lot more in blender to achieve the same quality (but you can still fuck up in daz too xD)

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Thank you for your very informative post.

I am myself considering starting and it has been a great help. I think i Won't take your advice and start with Blender though, since I'm the type to want things pretty much exactly as I imagined them

Quick question since I really don't know anything yet, is there any difference in rendering quality between the softwares ?

Thanks again

XD ok

Yes, there is a difference.

I believe Daz can use multiple engines, but it is safe to assem that it basically uses Nvidia's Iray (though it is hard to confirm if this is true since I don't use it).

Out of the box, Blender's Cycle engine is not any better, you may even say daz is better since it atleast comes with some good shaders.

However, if you look into how to turn on filmic in blender (very easy, like 1 or 2 clicks, or I could post some images to explain if you want... actually maybe I should make a post on how to optimize blender and stuff... ). Ok well, there are a few things you can do, such as filimic, and enabling these things not only allow you to make renders that are even above industry grade quality and beyond what daz can do (yes there are ways of measuring such claims), but it can also be done in even less than a quarter of the time, as well as run on anything, any operating system, any graphics card or cpu. daz does'n work with AMD hardware, and I am not sure about operating systems.

Not to mention, you can use sites like sheep it, it is a free render farm. if you have lots to render, like an animation, and if it is safe for work, you can have lots of computers animate for you if you only have a laptop and it's not powerful enough. if you need to do nsfw renders, you'll have to find those (like me) who'll join a private group for you to render to.

and you can use sites like blendswap for sfw assets, and smutbase for nsfw assets.

now one issue with blender is you have to make shaders sometimes. I recommend using my skin shader if you want a quick start,

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, I have more things to improve though.

one thing I think daz does better at is that it has a nice glass shader but now that I think about it, I think I know what I can try to make blender's glass shader just as good/better.

 

[mickydoo]

If you want to get into 3d VN's for any reason, trying to learn blender is the best way to put you off the whole idea. Blender is by far the best free program you are ever likely to find, but it is to put it bluntly, a cunt to use. I can use and do use Blender, 3ds max and Daz, I use all three for three different purposes. If I want to make a chair I use 3ds max, if I want to make a human figure I use Daz, if I want to do some quick editing of an existing daz asset i use blender. Blender can do everything 3ds max can do, not literally, but the end result is the same, it just takes you twice as long, blender however is easier to animate in as max is overkill for that, saying that max is overkill in a lot of ways. Making an object from scratch in max is 10 times easier than blender, however exporting a say a shirt out of daz for a simple edit is easier to do with blender.

If you want to make a dirty VN use daz.
If you want to make 3d models use blender (or max or maya)

My whole game so far has two things I have made myself in max, mainly because I am making a VN and can't be fucked

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Ha HA! >

I used to be jealous of Daz users and their superior glass shader, but no more! I have done it, I have made a glass shader that actually does what I want, and I didn't have to buy any commercial grade scripts.


I mostly wanted the effect seen on the pane, see-through in the front, no annoying reflections or haze due to the gloss/specularity of the material, but the edges are noticeable. I'm happy with the clarity, but if I am going to make any lenses I think I'll play around with the refraction transition a bit more (noticeable in the sphere).

 

[caLTD]

As a die hard Penguinista and able to write own scripts in blender user.

Come back after trying to fit 5 different characters with full clothes, weight maps, genitalias, skins and poses.

Daz worth every bit of his costs and you cannot replace daz with blender.

I spend my 6 month of extra time with blender, I learn lot, like lot, however when I hit wall of fitting genitalia to Manuel Bastioni char. I give try to daz.

Sure, it slow, it paid it this and that. However it's a solution. We are not in the 3d animation business. We are adult content creating business. We need quick solutions. Blender can't replace Daz here.

Uh, oh I'm still using blender in my pipeline to fine tuning my models. And thats it. After Manuel Bastioni closes the shop, there is no easy way to create content in Blender.

And please don't come back to how awesome blender is. Yes its awesome, I prefer over 3d max etc. And without the Daz3d like content support it like 155 mm Howitzer without ammunition.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

And please don't come back to how awesome blender is. Yes its awesome, I prefer over 3d max etc. And without the Daz3d like content support it like 155 mm Howitzer without ammunition.

oh ok, so you didn't even read my post, thanks

This is not about convincing you to use Blender.

This is meant to be an informative post as to why you may want to consider learning to use Blender now or in the future, as another digital tool to add to your collection, which could vastly expand your capabilities as 3D artists.

KEYWORD "another digital tool"
I was trying to start a discussion, not dictate to others what to think.
It was also a learning experience for myself.

Yes, I like Blender, I use it because I'm cheap.

Just because I like Blender doesn't mean I'm disrespectful of other tools or disrespectful towards other people who do things differently than myself. Everything has a strength and weakness, and it is perfectly fine to prefer something else even if you just simply like it more. I mean I really like rhino cad, but it's starting to fall behind the times. If daz fills your needs and you can work with it, then more power to you friend.

I try to be helpful, but I don't force my advice onto others.
I don't try to dictate to others what to do.

I also give people the benefit of the doubt and hear them out first, believing everyone to be genuine in their interests.
But you, for not reading my post and assuming I was just a fanboy who was here to promote my favorite program without respect for others, you have disrespected me.

We are not in the 3d animation business. We are adult content creating business.

You mean to say that: "You" are not in the 3d animation business, that "you" are in the adult content creating business.

That is your prerogative, so that may be a solution for you but do not assume we are all the same. Some people are here exploring ideas of making their own games, and some have been making games for a long time. I'm just an artist with no money, so I like to explore what I can and share anything I think may help the community, so sorry if me making a blender post in a mostly Daz user forum offended you.

 

[megaplayboy10k]

If I don't want to create my 3d models from scratch, rig character "skeletons" from scratch, create character skins from scratch, morph targets from scratch, etc., which is better, Daz3d or Blender?

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Are you asking me?

For the most part, making characters from scratch is quite a technical challenge, it took me 8 months to get to the level of skill I had hoped I would reach in 3 weeks.

I would say if you don't have the experience, and you are not interested in learning, but you are willing to spend money, you can buy stuff. while you could by things for various different programs, ie a Maya file, I would say for most users to just stick to the Daz3d ecosystem since most of the technical issues that plague 3D modeling (ie adapting clothes to different body types) have been resolved with their unified models (for example the Genesis 3 and 8 are popular series with many assets compatible for them). For newer users who want to get started fast, Daz is a strong choice.

 

[megaplayboy10k]

Are you asking me?

Sure. The main reason why I might avoid Blender, 3dMax, Maya or Cinema4d is because I just want to know enough to make a 3d VN or game with some limited animation. If a high quality 3d model of a human figure exists, with morph targets, skin textures, hair, pose sets, simple animations, facial expressions, skeleton rigging, etc., why do I want to reinvent the wheel and start from scratch? Is the extra work and learning curve necessary to do all that from scratch really worth it if my day job isn't "3d graphic artist"?