- May 29, 2017
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Can you devs stop with the One "choice option" you give us?!
- Thread starter Deximay
- Start date
- Jan 15, 2022
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- Jun 2, 2018
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I'm not really a fan of the one button action. I would go so far as to say I hate it, almost as much as "sand boxes" that aren't really sand boxes. The analogy I have for it is: hitting 'b' the whole game to jump, then it abruptly switches to 'a' for one jump because the developer couldn't figure out a way to make jumping feel more impactful. And then they did that hundreds of times throughout the game just to annoy me.
This kind of design is awkward and makes the pacing feel uneven and frustrating. Especially when I want to skip dialog, a major feature of renpy that this mechanic pretty much breaks. And it usually for some asinine "action", like knocking on a door. Choices I'm okay with, but one button actions are just bad game design.
Single button actions annoy me so much that here is a mod to get rid of it. Just drop it into the game folder and one button actions will automatically advance. One down side it that, they won't display on screen at all, so their text will be 'lost' (not that it matters most of the time).
The mod also adds in number keys to select multiple choice options when those do pop up. If you intend to skip be sure to turn on the "after choice" option in preferences as well, otherwise skipping will stop and you'll have to release and press ctrl again to start it skipping.
In fact, I dislike the overuse of buttons so much that in the game project I'm working on, I took removing buttons a step further. When starting the game the player can select the kind of content they want to see, and the "action" types they want to take (and change/toggle those choices later in preferences). Then when there are choices throughout the game, those actions will automatically happen. So, if they want, they can play with no buttons, in "hands free mode" for uh... texting... yeah... but still have some degree of choice.
This kind of design is awkward and makes the pacing feel uneven and frustrating. Especially when I want to skip dialog, a major feature of renpy that this mechanic pretty much breaks. And it usually for some asinine "action", like knocking on a door. Choices I'm okay with, but one button actions are just bad game design.
Single button actions annoy me so much that here is a mod to get rid of it. Just drop it into the game folder and one button actions will automatically advance. One down side it that, they won't display on screen at all, so their text will be 'lost' (not that it matters most of the time).
The mod also adds in number keys to select multiple choice options when those do pop up. If you intend to skip be sure to turn on the "after choice" option in preferences as well, otherwise skipping will stop and you'll have to release and press ctrl again to start it skipping.
In fact, I dislike the overuse of buttons so much that in the game project I'm working on, I took removing buttons a step further. When starting the game the player can select the kind of content they want to see, and the "action" types they want to take (and change/toggle those choices later in preferences). Then when there are choices throughout the game, those actions will automatically happen. So, if they want, they can play with no buttons, in "hands free mode" for uh... texting... yeah... but still have some degree of choice.
- Jul 27, 2017
- 1,141
- 4,300
That's one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard. But hey, I remember some mainstream RPG implementing a mode like that, where it just picks the dialogue choices for you. Was it Mass Effect? I don't remember. So I guess there is enough retards for there to be a market for shit like this.
I would agree with Winterfire here. Yes, lack of control can certainly be shown through only narration, but I think the single choice menu can be an effective emphasis of that. It doesn't give you the feeling that everything is under control, at most it gives you a momentary illusion that it might be, but instead of giving you hope that maybe there's a choice, it actually directly attacks that hope by showing you that no, there is no other choice. It's like the game is telling you, "Here, try it yourself. Try to do something different." And then it shows you that you really can't. That moment of agency doesn't make you feel more in control because it's immediately futile. It only enhances your helplessness.
More generally, the way I see it is that narration is story that's happening to you, and choices are actions that you (the player) are doing (of course, narration can also include actions performed by the MC that the player will identify with, but clicking a choice is a more direct mechanism to achieve that). I actually agree that a lot of single choice menus are unnecessary and frustrating, because they ruin the flow and force you to make an effort that's futile in that it cannot change the course of the story. But I do think there are cases where it's legitimate to do that, and one good example for me would be a dramatic moment where the MC is taking an action that is impactful for them to take, like say if they're holding a gun to the head of someone that means something to them and you're given the single choice, "Pull the trigger." It's like the game is saying "I'm not going to make your character pull the trigger for you. I'm giving you the reins for this moment and you have to do it yourself." When you click that option, you feel as though you're the one pulling that trigger, making the moment more visceral.
So yeah, carelessly overused single choice menus can be annoying and I have encountered games where I wished they would go away. But I don't rule the practice out, it has it's uses.
So its better you have to click twice to go to the next text dialog rather than just the one time.
Yea, that's adding meaningful interactivity.
You are correct in some instances the issue is options are hidden.
But given we can often seen the source code we know that isn't the case most of the time.
Hell there are plenty of them that give 3 or 4 buttons that all lead to the exact same thing. Occasionally they will actually give your character a different line to say but it still doesn't change the path of the story any.
For those that don't know even when only the rpyc file is available there are decompilers that let you look at that also.
A single choice give you nothing. If you want to show someone there are no other options you let them try the other options and bring them back logically to that they don't work. Or you explain it by mentally walking through it in the story.
I need to escape and avoid capture:
Your at the top of an 100ft tower. You have no super human abilities. There is a cart below full of hey. But there is no chance that will actually break my fall enough from this height. Maybe if it was less than 10 meters but from here I'll crash clean through the cart and be come a stain on the ground. The stairs aren't an option the guards have them blocked. Trying to fire a long boy in those close quarters just isn't possible. There isn't any place to hide. I could climb up on the roof of this place but I'll be spotted soon enough and they'll just cut the posts if need be and I'll end up a stain that way. I should have brought a rope. Nah hell even that wouldn't work. They would be waiting for me at the bottom. I have no disguise beside being the only person up here is going to lead to me being arrested anyways. Not like I can say they escaped else I would have been able to myself. Well guess I am left with no choice but surrender the only question is do I try and hide the bow before they get here. It's a slim chance they will find it. If I put it on the roof they will find it easier than if I hide it under the over hang. Now that's hid I still don't want to look entirely guilty so why not pretend I'm asleep or just relaxing at the least and go quietly with them.
VS
I need to escape and avoid capture:
The guards burst through the door. You have no options: Button [Surrender]
Yep, that is so much better being able to click that button.
The button like that is nothing more than a sign the developer / writer got lazy. I've never ever once seen an instance it added to the game in any way shape or form. Feel free to show me an example of were it does.
Wow dude, you're good with words. Beautifully described.
- Jan 24, 2022
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I think it's a bit less black white than that tbh. The trouble is, no two games are created with the same design philosophy/enthusiasm. Some of them will for sure go for "single choices" due to a desire to create the illusion of choice without having to invest in more complicated narratives/game design. And yes, those kinds of games are very hard to enjoy at the best of times.
But in in some cases, it can be due to a simple budget/time limitation on the developer's side. At which point, you might suggest that dev can simply remove that "single choice" and just make it part of the dialogue, say. But I do think that when you're facing the choice between no dialogue interactivity at all vs simulated dialogue interactivity, the latter can be marginally better. Because in the latter case, yes, the "choices" aren't really choices anymore, since you can't choose not to click on them if you want to proceed, and yet, they do have some narrative value. In that they can highlight specific plot beats where the MC is making what they (in fiction) regard as a difficult decision. Or it may simply be used to draw the player's attention to a particular turn of the story, that the knowledge of may enrich the enjoyment of the story at a later point. Ultimately, even if you're unable to inject meaningful choice variety as a developer, it can have value to interrupt the sometimes samey progression of some games, particularly of the VN variety, if only to jostle the player and point their attention to specific narrative points.
Having said that, I DO think that "single choices" are often misused, where they don't narratively fit or add anything meaningful to the experience. I.E. Single choices that are quite insignificant in their contextual value, aren't really much of a choice even to the fictional character themselves, or otherwise are just highlighting seemingly random decisions that add no value at all to the progression of a story or its character archs. Now these "choices", I can happily live without.
But in in some cases, it can be due to a simple budget/time limitation on the developer's side. At which point, you might suggest that dev can simply remove that "single choice" and just make it part of the dialogue, say. But I do think that when you're facing the choice between no dialogue interactivity at all vs simulated dialogue interactivity, the latter can be marginally better. Because in the latter case, yes, the "choices" aren't really choices anymore, since you can't choose not to click on them if you want to proceed, and yet, they do have some narrative value. In that they can highlight specific plot beats where the MC is making what they (in fiction) regard as a difficult decision. Or it may simply be used to draw the player's attention to a particular turn of the story, that the knowledge of may enrich the enjoyment of the story at a later point. Ultimately, even if you're unable to inject meaningful choice variety as a developer, it can have value to interrupt the sometimes samey progression of some games, particularly of the VN variety, if only to jostle the player and point their attention to specific narrative points.
Having said that, I DO think that "single choices" are often misused, where they don't narratively fit or add anything meaningful to the experience. I.E. Single choices that are quite insignificant in their contextual value, aren't really much of a choice even to the fictional character themselves, or otherwise are just highlighting seemingly random decisions that add no value at all to the progression of a story or its character archs. Now these "choices", I can happily live without.
If it's between the word salad you just wrote and the surrender button, I would pick the latter.
- Jan 24, 2022
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Like so many other things, Single choices are a tool that can be used for either pacing or narrative. Just, when you choose to use them you aren't choosing to use them as an act of player choice obviously.
Then you've got pseudo single choices, like the earlier example atop the tower. You could easily make this having two choices, jumping leads to game over and surrendering leads to continuing the plot. Even though there is no choice here it can be used to underline player agency. Allowing the player to experience the emotions rather than be told even a quality story as written can be far more powerful. Of course that is a best case scenario.
I do think the far more common example is stuff like 23 Sisters, where every choice is one game over and one game continues, and the only other choices are for opting out of objectionable scenes. They seem like a cheap way to get around being kinetic novels. Regardless of the examples people have been talking about, I imagine there is no disagreement that this is an improper use of choice from a game design perspective.
Then you have the use of a choice menu for things besides choice. The doki doki "choose monica" is a good example (and poorly used in many other places) of using the choice menu to tell players that their choice is explicitly taken away from them. You could do this a lot of ways, but it has such a strong narrative impact because of the context of what is happening.
They're all tools and they can be used well and used poorly. I for one thing my prologue needs a rework, I did heavily use single option choices in it and when you make a choice it breaks you out of that stagnancy and begins a time loop and all those scenes now have significantly more options for dialogue. So I did it on purpose but I think these days I could do better.
Then you've got pseudo single choices, like the earlier example atop the tower. You could easily make this having two choices, jumping leads to game over and surrendering leads to continuing the plot. Even though there is no choice here it can be used to underline player agency. Allowing the player to experience the emotions rather than be told even a quality story as written can be far more powerful. Of course that is a best case scenario.
I do think the far more common example is stuff like 23 Sisters, where every choice is one game over and one game continues, and the only other choices are for opting out of objectionable scenes. They seem like a cheap way to get around being kinetic novels. Regardless of the examples people have been talking about, I imagine there is no disagreement that this is an improper use of choice from a game design perspective.
Then you have the use of a choice menu for things besides choice. The doki doki "choose monica" is a good example (and poorly used in many other places) of using the choice menu to tell players that their choice is explicitly taken away from them. You could do this a lot of ways, but it has such a strong narrative impact because of the context of what is happening.
They're all tools and they can be used well and used poorly. I for one thing my prologue needs a rework, I did heavily use single option choices in it and when you make a choice it breaks you out of that stagnancy and begins a time loop and all those scenes now have significantly more options for dialogue. So I did it on purpose but I think these days I could do better.
In truth if I was going to do the tower it would be more on the line of they are given multiple choices to explore.
If they try one it then pops the dialog up as to why it can't be done.
Then remove that choice from the list. Thus leaving them with one final choice of surrender.
That way it isn't as if the other choices aren't explored or just left open like a huge crater causing a massive set of plot holes.
The player isn't left with the feeling of what about all the other options one could do in reality.
The primary issue here is there isn't a choice its just a continuation of the scene the OP is talking about.
It does nothing but make you click one extra time for no reason at all.
You can see a tone of that crap in games like restoring her career. Of course the game has countless plot holes from hell as well.