Consistency between dialog, thought and action

[grtrader]

I've been looking through a good number of games lately. I play through games pretty fast.
Dialog and consistency matters to me maybe a bit more than to some other people. If I just want to see images I could watch porn.
I read a bit fast so I can finish out a game rather quick.

I noticed a good number of games have a problem with female character dialog and thoughts don't match up with the actions.

She thinks something to the effect of I need to explain myself to such and such so I don't look like a slut and instead of saying something like the truth she ends up saying something that makes her look more like a slut.

Or they have her act rather intelligent half the time and when it comes to choice and situations the only options that pop up are what a moron would come up with.
If the character is going to be smart then she act smart. You can still get them into situations and compromise them.

There are various character traits that lend to people being easier to ensnare. Hubris excessive pride.
A Smart person that is over confident and acts and ass is much easier trap into crap than a person who rare nice and intelligent and doesn't act like an ass.
On the other hand dumb and nice are easier to ensnare. Dumb and mean aren't so much dumb and arrogant are real easy.

The reason is actually pretty simple. The good smart girl is more likely to simply refuse stuff and go to someone she trusts for help.
Egotists will think they are smarter than you and can handle you on their own.
Dumb people make less informed choices because they have less answers at hand so will make more bad choices. They generally only see the choices presented them or if lucky remember something they experienced or some they know experienced. They can often not realize they are out of their league when it comes to a situation.

This is an example of a person not realizing they are out of their league. Not sex related. I'm shooting pool in the NCO club and I've had a good night. Several friends around me.
This guy comes up and goes so you think you are pretty good at pool. I'm fair is my response. He then goes well I got a bet for you. He takes a pool cue lays it across the table and say he can role the ball under it without touching it. I'm like let me see that I take the ball and run it along the table and and the stick and go no way. He's like how much you want to be $20. He doesn't realize I just kicked my jacket under the table and signaled for a dozen other people to do the same thing. I've got him distracted building him up. He takes that ball slings it under the table and goes were is my $20. I look at him and go I think you should look under the table. He, "Awe fuck".

His failure was he didn't realize a person he just seen win 5 times in a row might actually know the very crap he was trying to pull.

I have noticed a few games use similar gambling tricks as a means to get to the strip and so on. But it doesn't have to be just gambling.
A real life example from my life was this woman who contracted for a job. If she defaulted on the job she would be forced to pay back monies on the job. Her lack of skill in the work put in the predicament she was forced to get others to help her or risk breaking contract. There was guys that helped her simply to help some got paid and some got their dick wet.

The point is think about your characters traits and then work off them if you want to make it more plausible.
Think about what a real person with those traits is going to do in that situation.

 

[radical686]

I have a similar view. Too often the reaction to complaints I have about narrative structure is that it's just a porn game. Yes, it's a porn game, but why do so many people have such low standards when it comes to the narratives in porn games. I can understand the reviewers that base their entire review on fappability, but there's plenty of mindless porn that is done better, the women are actually real, and you can see every fetish under the sun. They even have tons of stuff that is POV to give you the imaginary feeling that you're involved in the action.

There's some really good content on this board, too. But, I just cringe at positive reviews that laud the story, when it's really weak, makes no sense, or when actions are discordant with dialogue. I just want more from a game. TBH this is also a problem with non-porn games. Too often evil characters are evil by default or go evil b/c power corrupts. There's too much reliance on tropes. It's like game developers are too afraid or lack the imagination to try other paths.

Avengers Endgame is a perfect example of doing it right. Yes, it's not a game, but still. You can really get into a meaningful debate about whether Thanos actions were evil or not. It was neither evil because power corrupts nor inherently evil. Similarly, with Darth Vader. I thought George Lucas fucked up HOW Vader became evil, but I know it was intended as more nuanced and the narrative difference made the entire Star Wars universe more relatable, more interesting and more poignant.

As for how women are portrayed, they're too often portrayed as dumb as a box of hammers. It's one thing if the character is naive or innocent, but too often the dumb women are portrayed as smart and successful one moment and then, in order to introduce blackmail or corruption content, they act dumb and stupid. Sometimes in ways that really make no sense. It's inconsistent. Too many developers just don't know how to write corruption that involves female agency unless it's corruption in the direction of lesbian content. It's like people don't think women have hidden desires they are reluctant to act on unless it's with another woman.

That said, I understand that some of these problems come from the inherent programming difficulties that developers face and the desire to get paid for their work. It's one of the reasons I haven't tried to do it myself. I honestly don't have the time or the programming skills to do it better. There's also a tendency to want to rush porn content to hold onto Patreon supporters and/or to cater to a specific fetish. It's also time-consuming not only rewrite the same scene over and over again to allow for both stat building/metric changes AND narrative diversity, but it's also really hard to program these changes. I think some developers want different metrics to have different outcomes, but don't have the time to rewrite an entire scene to account for changed information.

I'm repeatedly astonished at EvaKiss' ability to juggle such changes in the structure of GGGB. What she's doing is NOT easy. The programming and sophisticated writing demonstrate a commitment to a well-produced game.

 

[polywog]

 

[Avaron1974]

What you need to remember is most female characters are written by blokes. As these are generally H games those women tend to be more slutty regardless of the character traits.

I've played a few corruption games and none of them acted the way I would in that situation or any of the women I know.

That being said, if women in H games acted like me or my friends they would be very shit H games. I only ever sleep with my girlfriend, none of the friends nor my twin are slutty so games with characters like that would be very thin on the sex and the sex scenes wouldn't satisfy half the people on this site.

The point i'm attempting to make is the women in these games can't be realistic or the games would be quite boring.

Granted you can have more realistic based women in romance/dating sims or RPG's not involving cum dump rape fests but for corruption/blackmail games you need to lower the IQ and have them make decisions we wouldn;t make in those situations or you wouldn't have a game.

That's also why I hate those games, it irks me playing a moron, but there are plenty of men here that like to see women in that kind of situation so we leave them to it. They are happy, that's all that matters.

 

[215303j]

The point i'm attempting to make is the women in these games can't be realistic or the games would be quite boring.

Yeah, I think the concept of "retard in lechertown" but with a very smart female MC could be interesting to play.
The MC would need to be smart, but the adversaries could also be pretty smart and the odds could be pretty strongly against her.
She could still find a way out, but it would be difficult.

The problem is that you are then basically trying to avoid the sex, making it a hopefully interesting game but a poor porn game...

 

[polywog]

most female characters are written by blokes.

There are more females in this than you think. My business is completely run by women, i'm just a corporate mascot.
Most games aren't about behaving like you would in real life, they're about behaving in a game. A what if scenario, a fantasy, and also for money.

You must be registered to see the links

would need to be smart

IC wut U did thar

 

[Ennoch]

Think about what a real person with those traits is going to do in that situation.

Thats exactly what you don't wanna see in a porn game because it would render it a non-porn game. Teens blackmailing their mothers, sisters who are falling for it? Really? Nope.
Girl is happy you helped her lose a jerk so she rewards you with a sloppy blowjob? Not gonna happen.

Don't take this the wrong way but what you actually describe is pretty much something that would kill porn. Way too.. theoretical. An idea that sounds plausible only on paper. When toned down, tempered and watered up.. now thats what we see in plausible porn stories. But all this "believable or not" topic boils down into one thing, always the same thing, in the end.:

Preference. Its just preference. You prefer porn that way, others don't. As long as the bulk of financial backers prefer much less plausible story behind their porn there is no need whatsoever for more realism. They lose you that way? They gain a hundred others. Quite an affordable loss.

We all like to believe that we are the most important client of a Dev but in reality we are just one little number in the accounts. And numbers are what matter. Not the preferences of an individual little number. In the end its business and even if we don't consider the untalented ones, those who actually struggle to come with a story let alone describing human emotions in great detail, the porn industry isn't about reaching artistic heights.

but there are plenty of men here that like to see women in that kind of situation so we leave them to it. They are happy, that's all that matters.

Exactly.

Yeah, I think the concept of "retard in lechertown" but with a very smart female MC could be interesting to play.
The MC would need to be smart, but the adversaries could also be pretty smart and the odds could be pretty strongly against her.
She could still find a way out, but it would be difficult.

The problem is that you are then basically trying to avoid the sex, making it a hopefully interesting game but a poor porn game...

That would render it pretty much a non-lechertown thing. Lechertown is not lechertown without a dimwit mc

Having a sexy-as-hell MC that every guy wants to nail and you try to avoid having sex with 99.99% of those creeps, jerks? Thats real life already

 

[Ryder77]

I've been looking through a good number of games lately. I play through games pretty fast.
Dialog and consistency matters to me maybe a bit more than to some other people. If I just want to see images I could watch porn.

Three points.

Firstly, it's difficult to write well. It really is. Few of these games are written by trained writers and, as a result, they are most often poorly written.

Secondly, I would say that many developers see the dialog or story as little more than a delivery system for porn images. There are a number of games with amazing renders, but only the most tenuous or absurd of stories and the weakest dialog imaginable.

Finally, even with the best of intentions, the inevitable plots of these games is not terribly realistic. When you marry up this point with the first two, you can see why the writing in so many games is so weak. In the words of Maude Lebowski, "You can imagine where it goes from here."

 

[Rythan25]

100% agree with opening post, and sadly its female protagonists or love interests that suffer the most from this

Asshole Male: My dad works for the pool-boy of the retarded niece of the president of Nintendo, show me your tits slut or they will fire you !!
Female Character:
*thoughts* - What is this idiot on about ? I work for Microsoft... Also I would never betray my actually attractive husband
*what she actually says* - Please sir no... I want your limp black dick in my slit, bring out my inner slut so that my husband kills himself !

People with taste - .... <_> ...... nothing left to do but delete game, delete browser history... delete win32 from your PC, burn the PC, and shoot your own dick off...

Game Dev - GENIUS !!! I bet the blokes on f95zone will love this shit and eat it up !! I might end up with 20 more patreons after such a hot and totally realistic scene !!

 

[radical686]

The point i'm attempting to make is the women in these games can't be realistic or the games would be quite boring.

I actually really disagree with this claim. GGGB is one of the more successful and popular Devs on this forum. And the female characters are written fairly realistically. You can imagine it happening. Certainly more likely that the brilliant businesswoman or Lawyer that acts like dumb as a box of hammers in order to be corrupted. It's not necessary to write poor scenarios just to put them in corruption content. Porn does it in many of their full-length movies.

Secondly, it fundamentally misunderstands the desires of some women. Many women fantasize about being dominated, gangbanged, raped, blackmailed into sex and corrupted. Those games are here. It doesn't have to be poorly written to be interesting. A good example is A Wife and Mother. The Dev does a really credible job of setting up a corruption scenario involving lesbians. At the same time, the Dev felt the only way to service the corruption fantasy with men was to either blackmail her or rape her. Why blackmail in one case and legit corruption in the other? Furthermore, the Mother has a rich brother in law. So, why on earth does it make sense that rich kids at school should be able to blackmail her? Her Sister and brother in law would likely be happy to help her out. The game also gave her lots of opportunities to be naturally drawn to other men giving her attention when it's obvious her husband is cheating on her.

OK, so there are people on here that like blackmail content, but he also lost people like me that were just frustrated by that turn. I had just recently downloaded the game and considered supporting the Dev at Patreon like I do EvaKiss. But, why should I if he's only interested in catering to the blackmail fans--of which there are dozens of games btw? I decided not to support the game after that.

 

[polywog]

Consistency between dialog, thought and action

 

[PirateWorks]

Writing is a skill. Not just as a whole but, writing dialogues, reactions, story, flow etc. each require a different subset of skills.

When you make games alone, you can't expect one person to have all the skills like art/ renders, coding, game design/ mechanics etc. as well as being good at writing.

Visuals and gameplay mostly take up more effort and involvement than writing, unless you are making a text- based game.

 

[polywog]

Writing is a skill. Not just as a whole but, writing dialogues, reactions, story, flow etc. each require a different subset of skills.

When you make games alone, you can't expect one person to have all the skills like art/ renders, coding, game design/ mechanics etc. as well as being good at writing.

Visuals and gameplay mostly take up more effort and involvement than writing, unless you are making a text- based game.

I know artists who can paint lifelike scenes, buildings and objects, but ask them to paint a face, and it looks like a kindergartner did it. The same for writers, some write highly detailed technical novels without an ounce of emotion. The blandness of Matt Damon was a perfect match to play the role of a character who had his brain erased.

One person working on a project is like fapping / jilling You CAN do it that way if you want to, but is it going to be a memorable experience?


To make a GREAT game you need an orgy.

 

[grtrader]

Removed because I am tired of staff behavior

 

[grtrader]

Removed because I am tired of staff behavior

 

[grtrader]

Removed because I am tired of staff behavior

 

[grtrader]

Removed because I am tired of staff behavior

 

[anne O'nymous]

I actually really disagree with this claim. GGGB is one of the more successful and popular Devs on this forum. And the female characters are written fairly realistically.

I'm not sure that using a game wrote by a girl is really a proof that guys can write realistic female characters. Personally I would have used The DeLuca Family as example, but the characters have such personality that it's not always obvious that they react correctly.

Secondly, it fundamentally misunderstands the desires of some women. Many women fantasize about being dominated, gangbanged, raped, blackmailed into sex and corrupted.

I'm pretty sure that @Avaron1974 understand women desires, and not just because she's one of them.
This said, desires and fantasies are two different things, but it's not what matter here. The problem she talked about wasn't that the female characters are put in unrealistic situations, but that their reaction when facing these situations are unrealistic. And, while knowing/understanding women less than her, I agree with that ; like I agree, but partially, with the reason she give to explain it.
For me the problem isn't just a question of understanding, but also the fact that too many devs fail to think about something else than sex. That's why I used @HopesGaming 's game as example, because his girls almost never think or talk about it (and will surely continue even when it will become more present). It's not that a girl never think/talk about sex, but even when she really want it, it don't obfuscate the rest.
It can seem ridiculous, but for once I want to see an incest game with the mother scolding the MC because of whatever reason a mother can have to to this ; "A BJ ? Are you serious ? Look at your hair, when's the last time you've seen a hairdresser ? We'll talk about this once you'll be presentable". I want to see a girl who don't want to undress right now, not because she disagree with the idea, but because she put one of her (so comfortable) period panties and don't want to be seen in it. Talking about this, I also want girls that say, "not today", not because they are at their peak of fertility, but because they have their periods ; seriously, what girls wouldn't want to live in the adult game universe, an universe where periods don't exist ?
In short, I want to see girls that react like girls...

 

[Avaron1974]

seriously, what girls wouldn't want to live in the adult game universe, an universe where periods don't exist ?

I'd literally kill for that.

I don't know how to put it into words properly so guys that haven't lived with a woman can understand but periods for some of us are horrible. Some women cope fine but I get really down when i'm on mine and I get cramps and pains and I have to worry about what to wear just in case something leaks through.

I hate periods. Not to mention that first time you have one and no matter how many times people tell you what to expect nothing prepares you from pulling down your panties to see enough blood to make you think your insides are trying to escape through your vagina.

The problem she talked about wasn't that the female characters are put in unrealistic situations, but that their reaction when facing these situations are unrealistic.

Also this.

I know situations like that happen and they happen a lot but a lot of the reactions I see wouldn't be made like I see them made.

Take The Engagement for example. Here we have a guy sent with his assistant to a meeting where she was given lead. She stands there being groped staring at the MC not saying anything. Later she's groped in a cafe and then given a date rape drug and then later on forced into sex because she's been told she'd lose her job if she didn't get that contract.

None of which would happen.

For a business like that employment contracts are a thing everyone has to have. Her contract is for an assistants position, she's been given lead which is perfectly reasonable as long as someone above her supervises which is the MC's job in that particular instance. Groping openly like that is extreme sexual harassment and liable to cost the guy his job and a lot of financial trouble.

On top of that we have the illegal drugging, illegal kidnapping, false imprisonment and attempted rape all in one scene. That's pretty much life imprisonment for that guy and the MC stood by and let it happen regardless of intent it's still criminal charges for aiding and abetting. Yes folks, seeing a crime and doing nothing is also a crime in most first world countries.

Then you have her boss saying she'd lose her job if she didn't get the guys signature which, again, wouldn;t happen because that's not her contracted job and would lead to her taking her boss to court for wrongful dismissal not to mention gross misconduct at the threat which would lead to the boss losing his job as well as the company a lot of money.

Even if you completely ignore the legal side of things, it's a game after all, it still makes nearly everyone look incredibly incompetent at their jobs, the girl look spineless needing the man to defend her because she seems to have forgot how words work.

Then in another scene you have the MC in his hotel room with his assistant while he's on the phone to his girlfriend. The assistant speaks, the girlfriend asks who it is and rather than say "oh, it's my assistant" who the girlfriend already knows is on the job with him he completely lies making himself look like a complete moron in the process and making the girlfriend suspicious.

It's a game full of highly incompetent idiots.

That's my problem with a lot of corruption games. It's not the scenario's themselves it's the reactions.

Shit, we know women are manipulated into sex in various lines of work, the entertainment industry is full of stories of that as is wrestling. Women have been known to sleep with their bosses to advance their careers.

However, falling asleep at a desk, your boss wanking onto your face and taking a photo saying "you will now be my fuck puppet (paraphrasing) or I show this to your man ... just no.

It's when they make someone out to be incredibly intelligent and then have them do the dumbest of shit, that's what makes it unbelievable.

Really sorry, that turned into a far longer rant than I expected.

 

[polywog]

'd literally kill for that.

I don't know how to put it into words properly so guys that haven't lived with a woman can understand but periods for some of us are horrible. Some women cope fine but I get really down when i'm on mine and I get cramps and pains and I have to worry about what to wear just in case something leaks through.

I hate periods. Not to mention that first time you have one and no matter how many times people tell you what to expect nothing prepares you from pulling down your panties to see enough blood to make you think your insides are trying to escape through your vagina.