Java Corrupted Saviors [Release 58] [CSDev]

[SuperSkippy]

Most of the things people are asking for in an integrated tutorial could just as well be provided by a video walkthrough with some commentary, just saying.

Respectfully, I don't think a video is the way to approach this. This is a text-centered game. You kind of have two approaches to a "How to Play" video.

1) In any reasonably-paced playthrough, people are kind of flying through it. So the effect would be that someone is talking while a bunch of text is flying by, with pauses at the important bits to explain. This allows you to, with tight pacing, get to commanders, multipliers, and t1 breaks, maybe even a t2 break if you extend it a bit past 15 minutes, but the effect will be "this person isn't reading any of the text in this text game" with a side of "How can I tell what text is important and what text isn't?"

2) Or, someone would be crawling through the game, leaving plenty of time to read all the text (or reading it aloud to the viewer), and in 20-30 minutes they'll finish the first battle, which gives the player some of the information (here's how the first surround works, then defense goes up and future surrounds are harder), but they still lack the key step of how to build up a large multiplier. Stay tuned for part 2 where a second Chosen joins the battle? After 2 hours they'll get to the part where they summon a demon commander that can actually do some damage? Is anyone going to stick around for that?

Of course, if you've got a different idea that doesn't fit either of these formats, there's nothing stopping you from making one.

Nah I think we have plenty of guides (with the exception of a broader strategy guide that I mentioned earlier). No more txt files haha.

The game needs more visual representations of:

1) Potential options, and
2) Potential consequences

How that is achieved, I don't know, because I don't know enough about programming to determine the difficulty of implementing things. But something which helps in some games I've played with bone-crushing depth (Songs of Syx for example) is colour-coded arrows which show what your action is about to do, a preview of sorts.

So for example, you hover over Slime, and it does this, if the Chosen has PLEA as a minor:

View attachment 3087653

Two arrows for significant, three for core.

This could also work for surrounds and circumstance damage, where Grind would show the gain to HATE, but also the corresponding gains to traumas and how much the player should expect.

However I don't know if hovering tooltips/previews are possible within the engine. And I don't know if CSdev would want to implement a whole new "preview" step for each attack, as that would add an extra button press to combat...

This could work as a toggleable option, but how do you tell people, "This is how you build up a x12 multiplier so you can break T1?" in a game where the Chosen personalities are randomized? Also, I don't know Java super-well, but there'd be a lot to implementing this, because it's a change to text that's already been output. Currently CS is set up to output text and move on--this changes text that's already been output which can result in a lot of programming overhead. Changing the buttons, though--that'd be much more easily doable.

 

[Deleted member 6673754]

This could work as a toggleable option, but how do you tell people, "This is how you build up a x12 multiplier so you can break T1?" in a game where the Chosen personalities are randomized? Also, I don't know Java super-well, but there'd be a lot to implementing this, because it's a change to text that's already been output. Currently CS is set up to output text and move on--this changes text that's already been output which can result in a lot of programming overhead. Changing the buttons, though--that'd be much more easily doable.

Exactly, I think it's probably too late to implement this without a significant code base re-write, which I'd never suggest.

Honestly, I think this needs a web-based solution. An interactive webpage which acts as a companion that guides the player through the loop. The player inputs the following:

- Vulns of the Chosen on the loop
- Angst at the end of Day 1 (to account for the 1-100 scale of damage)
- What Item is selected
- What relationships they want to pursue with the Chosen (rivals, nothing, friends)

The guide should be able to do the resulting math and not only suggest a path to follow, but could also do that hovering tooltip functionality that attempts to solve the hardest problem with the game: "Why should I do this action?" in a visual way.

The big con to this is... you may as well just make the game all over again in HTML 5 or Javascript lol.

The only other solution I can think of is something like Dwarf Therapist for Dwarf Fortress, which is another executable program which reads the memory allocations for the base game and uses the info to spit out helpful data. Again, same problem, may as well re-make the game.

 

[Celerarity]

Respectfully, I don't think a video is the way to approach this. This is a text-centered game. You kind of have two approaches to a "How to Play" video.

1) In any reasonably-paced playthrough, people are kind of flying through it. So the effect would be that someone is talking while a bunch of text is flying by, with pauses at the important bits to explain. This allows you to, with tight pacing, get to commanders, multipliers, and t1 breaks, maybe even a t2 break if you extend it a bit past 15 minutes, but the effect will be "this person isn't reading any of the text in this text game" with a side of "How can I tell what text is important and what text isn't?"

The answer to how you can tell what text is important is, the person making the video will tell you. That's the entire point of a video guide - to explain relevant concepts with accompanying examples. You don't watch a guide because you want to see the maker slowly pick through every bit of text, you watch it so you can listen to them and learn the things that aren't already immediately obvious to anyone who opens up the game and looks at it. Because the player can do that last part themselves.

A basic explanation of how to target weaknesses, what trama and circumstance damage does, commanders and surrounds, and what decisions to keep in mind as you are walked through the first loop are all that's needed. Once you get the basics of how to actually play everything else should click.

You could easily make a 15 minute video with the first five minutes being 'what is this game' and 'how to start your first fights', the next five being 'what are commanders and T2 breaks', and the final bit covering 'how to work T3 breaks and win the final battle'. You don't need an essay for any of this; it's just introducing the basic concepts and the logic behind them.

Also trying to write an entire program to compensate for the permutations of random chosen is dumb. The game is deterministic. Just make a walkthrough for one chosen team (using a video, text, or the in-game comments) and export them for people to try themselves if they want to follow along.

 

[Deleted member 6673754]

Also trying to write an entire program to compensate for the permutations of random chosen is dumb. The game is deterministic. Just make a walkthrough for one chosen team (using a video, text, or the in-game comments) and export them for people to try themselves if they want to follow along.

I don't think it's "dumb", I think it's "difficult". The issue with your approach is that some people may not want to learn like that. It's easy to blindly follow a walkthrough, but if that walkthrough doesn't do a good job of explaining the reasoning behind the choices being made, then all you've done is led the horse to water. The horse still has no idea how to drink.

There is no one singular answer to this, and everyone will have their preferences. Videos are not a silver bullet, nor is a companion app or program. Nothing wrong with multiple solutions, if someone is willing to put in the time and effort!

 

[Celerarity]

Just as long as that someone isn't you, I take it?

It's dumb because it adds so much effort trying to algorithmically predict the best move for a game that is fundamentally deterministic, and thus does not require at-run evaluation. It's easy to say 'someone else should do all this work' and leave it at that, but that doesn't often lead to progress. If you want to move from ideas to seeing actual execution you have to start thinking about what's practical and what isn't.

 

[SuperSkippy]

Just as long as that someone isn't you, I take it?

It's dumb because it adds so much effort trying to algorithmically predict the best move for a game that is fundamentally deterministic, and thus does not require at-run evaluation. It's easy to say 'someone else should do all this work' and leave it at that, but that doesn't often lead to progress. If you want to move from ideas to seeing actual execution you have to start thinking about what's practical and what isn't.

jaw_bone is someone who recently re-discovered the game and has about 2 dozen posts, all in this thread, with a start date of last Friday, with a post at that time asking for help on Distortions. So, no, I don't think that's someone who has enough answers to start making a "how to play" guide.

My own willingness to help stops somewhat before the point where I'm recording a voiceover for a walkthrough on what buttons to press to make a textual depiction of rape show up. I'm probably not ever running for Congress or anything, but that's just not something I want to create and release out into the world. I've got no desire to do that. Instead, I've helped people in the thread, and I've offered to type detailed tutorial text into the game for a specific team of Chosen, starting from nothing, if that's something CSdev is interested in implementing at some stage during this extended alpha.

 

[Deleted member 6673754]

Just as long as that someone isn't you, I take it?

It's dumb because it adds so much effort trying to algorithmically predict the best move for a game that is fundamentally deterministic, and thus does not require at-run evaluation. It's easy to say 'someone else should do all this work' and leave it at that, but that doesn't often lead to progress. If you want to move from ideas to seeing actual execution you have to start thinking about what's practical and what isn't.

I'm sorry if you took what I said as me trying to palm off responsibility on others. I was thinking out loud about what may and may not work for a game such as this. If I came up with something I thought would work, I would create it myself.

Anyways, all the relevant points have been made.

 

[Celerarity]

jaw_bone is someone who recently re-discovered the game and has about 2 dozen posts, all in this thread, with a start date of last Friday, with a post at that time asking for help on Distortions. So, no, I don't think that's someone who has enough answers to start making a "how to play" guide.

My own willingness to help stops somewhat before the point where I'm recording a voiceover for a walkthrough on what buttons to press to make a textual depiction of rape show up. I'm probably not ever running for Congress or anything, but that's just not something I want to create and release out into the world. I've got no desire to do that. Instead, I've helped people in the thread, and I've offered to type detailed tutorial text into the game for a specific team of Chosen, starting from nothing, if that's something CSdev is interested in implementing at some stage during this extended alpha.

Sure, and since doing it for a specific team of chosen is much easier than trying to do it for every chosen, that's way more practical. Though you'd probably want to do something based on the in-game comments closer to when the game exits alpha due to the way new features being added or rebalanced can break comments from earlier versions.

Still, worst case scenario you could always do comments for a version, then just ship that specific version + comments + the prebuilt chosen as a package for people to try and learn on, then jump into the current build when they feel confident.

 

[Shasou]

You know, this is simply a personal take regarding the "proper balancing" and the "how to play the game properly" thing. I'm just gonna be honest about this since most eraGames often include this kind of thing as well. I enjoy mixing my gameplay with both cheat menus and whatnot with the game mechanics. I look at games and just want to have fun, i'm not here going through my sacred pilgrimage to become a shaolin monk or a top MLG gamer.

I play this game using both cheats as well as following the break requirements, since it's not enjoyable for me to just one-hit-kill everything. Everytime i play Corrupted Saviors, i unlock all achievements and all loop upgrades, but not all items. I like just playing the game and earning things, but i like to play it on my pace and follow my own rules. I always have CE at the ready, since i like extending my fights by resetting the evacuation and extermination bars.

There's people that love incredibly high difficulty games, stressful gameplays, puzzle-style games and so on, but there's people that are not looking for a darkest dungeon style of game. When it comes to balancing and difficulty adjustments, it's always going to end up with countless discussions about how this or that is too easy or too hard, which is why i think developers should give the player themselves options on how they want to play their game. Taking into account all the suggestions already posted before, maybe add in a roguelite-style incremental system, every completed loop gives you a roguelite currency which the player can use to increase all the stats they want in the game, including resetting them all to 0 (default difficulty values).

Don't neglect the community offering insight on what should be adjusted or not, just add in something for those looking to play the game using their own ruleset. Personally, if this game becomes a "play it this way or you're doing it wrong" or "follow the meta or gg" kind of game, it would definitely kill any enjoyment i previously could find and would stop following this project. It's one thing for players to formulate strategies that would lead to a victory, there would be many different ways to take, but it's another to take choice and flexibility to approach a difficult battle and force the player to do things in a specific way or game over.

 

[McHuman]

You know, this is simply a personal take regarding the "proper balancing" and the "how to play the game properly" thing. I'm just gonna be honest about this since most eraGames often include this kind of thing as well. I enjoy mixing my gameplay with both cheat menus and whatnot with the game mechanics. I look at games and just want to have fun, i'm not here going through my sacred pilgrimage to become a shaolin monk or a top MLG gamer.

I play this game using both cheats as well as following the break requirements, since it's not enjoyable for me to just one-hit-kill everything. Everytime i play Corrupted Saviors, i unlock all achievements and all loop upgrades, but not all items. I like just playing the game and earning things, but i like to play it on my pace and follow my own rules. I always have CE at the ready, since i like extending my fights by resetting the evacuation and extermination bars.

There's people that love incredibly high difficulty games, stressful gameplays, puzzle-style games and so on, but there's people that are not looking for a darkest dungeon style of game. When it comes to balancing and difficulty adjustments, it's always going to end up with countless discussions about how this or that is too easy or too hard, which is why i think developers should give the player themselves options on how they want to play their game. Taking into account all the suggestions already posted before, maybe add in a roguelite-style incremental system, every completed loop gives you a roguelite currency which the player can use to increase all the stats they want in the game, including resetting them all to 0 (default difficulty values).

Don't neglect the community offering insight on what should be adjusted or not, just add in something for those looking to play the game using their own ruleset. Personally, if this game becomes a "play it this way or you're doing it wrong" or "follow the meta or gg" kind of game, it would definitely kill any enjoyment i previously could find and would stop following this project. It's one thing for players to formulate strategies that would lead to a victory, there would be many different ways to take, but it's another to take choice and flexibility to approach a difficult battle and force the player to do things in a specific way or game over.

You're only truly forced to play in a certain way in later loops when when damage reduction and preparedness gets too high. As long as you understand how the game works though you have a lot of freedom in how you play the early loops. If you're not interested in late loop playstyle then just don't play into the later loops. The game has options for those who want an easier time, so adding difficulty adjustments to make the later loops just blanket easier for the sake of letting more people play those loops isn't really necessary.

There's people that love incredibly high difficulty games, stressful gameplays, puzzle-style games and so on, but there's people that are not looking for a darkest dungeon style of game.

Also just a note on this, okay...? If you're not looking for Darkest Dungeon, don't play Darkest Dungeon, it's not elitist or anything to say that games don't need to be accessible for everyone. Could CS have options to make the game easier, obviously yes. But this is also a single developer (to my knowledge), so making those kinds of balance adjustments to make the game more accessible to people who aren't interested in "high difficulty, stressful puzzle games", takes development time away from focusing on things that the core intended audience are actually interested in.

 

[SuperSkippy]

You know, this is simply a personal take regarding the "proper balancing" and the "how to play the game properly" thing. I'm just gonna be honest about this since most eraGames often include this kind of thing as well. I enjoy mixing my gameplay with both cheat menus and whatnot with the game mechanics. I look at games and just want to have fun, i'm not here going through my sacred pilgrimage to become a shaolin monk or a top MLG gamer.

I play this game using both cheats as well as following the break requirements, since it's not enjoyable for me to just one-hit-kill everything. Everytime i play Corrupted Saviors, i unlock all achievements and all loop upgrades, but not all items. I like just playing the game and earning things, but i like to play it on my pace and follow my own rules. I always have CE at the ready, since i like extending my fights by resetting the evacuation and extermination bars.

There's people that love incredibly high difficulty games, stressful gameplays, puzzle-style games and so on, but there's people that are not looking for a darkest dungeon style of game. When it comes to balancing and difficulty adjustments, it's always going to end up with countless discussions about how this or that is too easy or too hard, which is why i think developers should give the player themselves options on how they want to play their game. Taking into account all the suggestions already posted before, maybe add in a roguelite-style incremental system, every completed loop gives you a roguelite currency which the player can use to increase all the stats they want in the game, including resetting them all to 0 (default difficulty values).

Don't neglect the community offering insight on what should be adjusted or not, just add in something for those looking to play the game using their own ruleset. Personally, if this game becomes a "play it this way or you're doing it wrong" or "follow the meta or gg" kind of game, it would definitely kill any enjoyment i previously could find and would stop following this project. It's one thing for players to formulate strategies that would lead to a victory, there would be many different ways to take, but it's another to take choice and flexibility to approach a difficult battle and force the player to do things in a specific way or game over.

I don't hate what you're saying, but cheats are embedded into the game and you have full facility to use them if that's what you enjoy. The only thing is, the game won't get more difficult. Because what would be the point when you've got an instant win button you can click whenever you want?

All you have is this message: "Cheat Mode is turned on. It will be possible to use cheats. Aside from the presence of Elite Chosen, there will be no increases in the difficulty of later loops." Play however you want!

Now, I understand the appeal of making an easier version where the ramp up is maybe linear instead of exponential, and you can just kind of win every time while still feeling like there's at least some challenge because number go up. Like, that's a fine way to play too. No judgement here. That'd probably be far easier than implementing some kind of prestige system. If I were writing a game, I'd save that until I was pretty sure I had the "main" version of the game the way I wanted it. In the end, though, it's a single-player game and there's no wrong way to play.

Indeed, there are still strong disagreements still about what kinds of Forsaken a team should have and what's worthwhile to include. I'm definitely team "1 Undead Demon Knight" for the record. And at least one person in here was trying to tell me that I'm absolutely wrong for that, that 2-3EE "fixed" Forsaken are just better. Which, you know, maybe. I don't really care. Outside of say a competition like we had here earlier this year (I finished second, fairly respectable), who cares if your Forsaken are the most efficient or best, as long as they're doing the job you told them to do (or being tortured for their failures)?

 

[Shasou]

Also just a note on this, okay...? If you're not looking for Darkest Dungeon, don't play Darkest Dungeon, it's not elitist or anything to say that games don't need to be accessible for everyone. Could CS have options to make the game easier, obviously yes. But this is also a single developer (to my knowledge), so making those kinds of balance adjustments to make the game more accessible to people who aren't interested in "high difficulty, stressful puzzle games", takes development time away from focusing on things that the core intended audience are actually interested in.

Firstly, see, it's understandable to say that not every game is supposed to be acessible to everyone and i honestly agree with it myself, some games do make it very clear at the very beginning what kind of content the game is going to be focusing on. Thing is, this game does everything it can to make sure you understand that this game is here to cater to a wide audience, from difficulty to fetishes and kinks, it even gives you an option to substitute actual violence to tickling so people that hate violence and hardcore abuse scenes can enjoy it as well.

What would really suck however, is when you gathered this many people for your community and then suddenly decided to turn the difficulty curve to a 200% and the stress curve to 186.5% without letting people adjust it without going to extremes or even disabling content (difficulty scaling). I played this game many times without the cheat system on, like i often do to see what the idea of how the battle and sex system is supposed to work, i found them interesting but not really my style, so i used a mix of cheat mode and cheat engine to have control over the time battles take as well as unlocking upgrades and achievements. Imagine for a moment, you love the content, the writing, the inclusion of many kinks and fetishes that you like and how it caters to both straight and gay content, but it's a game that turned stressful, too difficult for you to play and filled with annoying new mechanics that just gets in the way of you enjoying the things that you once liked (before the annoyance was added in). That's a serious punch in the gut, especially for the people that were here for a long time.

Secondly, there was a time when i believed that certain things like difficulty adjustments, inclusion of content that's dependant on several functions, etc, would take development time and great effort from the development team, but then i went into modding things myself. Many times i found that when some devs say that it would be complex, it actually was not that complex. There's tons of examples when i went into that, just to say two though:

Portals of Phereon? Did you know MPreg (or anal preg, apparently it was a body part thing) can be very easily enabled? Apparently a guy in discord did that and even posted some screens of it working, when the dev and chat said that it would take development time to make these compatible. When i went to do it myself, was a simple addition and fast too, took me 2h or so because i was unfamiliar with the code. Did the dev bother to add that in or ask if the mod could be added in the game to save time? Of course not.

Strive for Conquest? Did you know MPreg (or anal preg, also a body part calculation thing, not gender) is also easily added in? As well as same sex marriage? Very easily done, doesn't take long at all to do.

The way i see it, if you're doing things like modifier-based adjustments to base values, you could actually do it using prestige system, it would also give the player more replayability value to the game (i do agree that it would be best to have the game balanced the way you envisioned it first before doing so). Also, i always go for the campaign, i love the loop system, conquering cities, recruiting forsaken, seeing the lore, fighting off the bosses, earning influence so you can get new items, training your forsaken to get stronger and go into another city with them. You can't just exclude people from that, it's a lot of content to just say "Hey, if you're a casual gamer and don't like difficulty, don't do campaign, go single instead". That's not a good thing to tell people, CSDev is doing a great job at writing the main story lore and i'm dead certain there's people always looking for more of that. There's many suggestions up for grabs that were posted here by the community and there's many ways to add alternatives for people looking to even the odds with the ever-increasing difficulty. Hey, personally i would actually like to have the option to disable the "Don't increase difficulty while using cheat mode in campaign". I don't want a one-hit-kill, i don't want a instant win thing, i simply want to adjust how fast my forces gain strength in proportion to the chosen, that's why i said i always use CE with the cheat mode, that way i can control what the cheat mode cannot.

Also, just as a reminder, there are many, many conditions that you must take into consideration while battling against the chosen. You have aversions, you have distortions, you have relationship vignettes that ALSO trigger tier breaks against random chosen. You know, i have many custom chosen that i personally take time to set a story behind, along with carefully customizing their appearances, vulnerabilities and their picture sets as best as i can, as part of the role playing aspect of the game. So when i go into the game, and i meet one of the chosen that i created and customized, i try to go and corrupt them the way i set them with their personal story. Sometimes i wish i could disable distortions because they can get in the way, especially with relationships also being able to trigger breaks on other chosen, but it's okay and i won't bother CSDev with this request, because i know the importance of strategic decisions in a game like this, it's part of its charm.

 

[Celerarity]

I'm sure if you pay enough money you could probably commission more expanded cheat content if it's really that important to you. But this...

You can't just exclude people from that, it's a lot of content to just say "Hey, if you're a casual gamer and don't like difficulty, don't do campaign, go single instead". That's not a good thing to tell people,

is complete nonsense. You can absolutely tell someone "I'm making a specific kind of game and it won't be for everyone" and that's fine. In fact, being able to say 'no' and stick to a proper vision is an extremely important skill in artistic design - game or otherwise. You are not automatically entitled to every game being changed to suit your personal tastes.

 

[Shasou]

I'm sure if you pay enough money you could probably commission more expanded cheat content if it's really that important to you. But this...



is complete nonsense. You can absolutely tell someone "I'm making a specific kind of game and it won't be for everyone" and that's fine. In fact, being able to say 'no' and stick to a proper vision is an extremely important skill in artistic design - game or otherwise. You are not automatically entitled to every game being changed to suit your personal tastes.

No, it's not "complete nonsense". When i said that i was referring to excluding people from the campaign mode, not the game in general. Maybe read what i actually am talking about in my post before you point the finger?

 

[Celerarity]

I read what you wrote and I stand by what I said.

 

[Shasou]

I read what you wrote and I stand by what I said.

Interesting, so to you, any compromises suggested regarding difficulty adjustments are regarded as "expanded cheat content" and any feedback offered is seen as "being automatically entitled to games changing to suit my personal tastes". Truly amazing as i have not made any demands at all, all the posts that i have written in this thread are my personal feedback from playing the game in its still-in-early-development stage. Truly, CSDev can do whatever they want, i'm not gonna bang pots together or anything. Would it be incredibly disappointing to see a game you liked so much, invested in, turn into something that you just don't like at all? Yes, it would, but sometimes it's just what happens. You stop following the project and look for another.

You know what else is critical to game development? Player feedback. You wanna know what it means to have absolutely none of it in a game? Try seeing a gameplay of "Crying is not Enough" or "Remothered: Broken Porcelain" during its first releases. It's important to hear both the positives and negatives, see what works and what is causing concerns, then check and see your options, what fits and what doesn't, what is a concern or just part of the game. It's all up to the dev. If you think all devs release their projects and stick like FlexTape to their rock-solid vision of a game, you're mistaken. Many games sometimes have to make compromises in many ways, like difficulty adjustments, the amount of violence it has, how much content it's going to have, sometimes things get cut, etc, etc.

 

[Deleted member 6673754]

Could CS have options to make the game easier, obviously yes. But this is also a single developer (to my knowledge), so making those kinds of balance adjustments to make the game more accessible to people who aren't interested in "high difficulty, stressful puzzle games", takes development time away from focusing on things that the core intended audience are actually interested in.

I think this is the key takeaway to be honest. Everything being discussed, whether it's feasible or just idle fantasy, should be done with the aim of not adding to the dev's workload.

 

[bansdebar]

Hi, I was thinking if trying out this game. I see it's not finished yet. How many hours of content is there currently?

 

[hgffdh]

If you, like me, have problems with font antialiasing missing, add -Dawt.useSystemAAFontSettings=lcd to java options. Dunno why developers dont do it themselves unless they all use high DPI displays.

 

[SuperSkippy]

Hi, I was thinking if trying out this game. I see it's not finished yet. How many hours of content is there currently?

I have played for hundreds of hours and have just about seen everything the game has to offer in its current state. But I'm a brokebrain nerd who enjoys number go up so YMMV.