May I suggest that we can check our current influence somewhere?
It is still not clear to me when you choose an item wich one is supposed to be "more powerful"/"cost more"
Java Corrupted Saviors [Release 61b] [CSDev]
It is still not clear to me when you choose an item wich one is supposed to be "more powerful"/"cost more"
I guess it working as intented. I just find it weird that you get no energy at all if you trigger a distortion action when Judgement herself is doing a lower action. It's fine though but maybe the energy generated from distortion actions could just give the same energy as Judgement is generating?
The extra punisher% is definitely a good effect though. Honestly if Angel didn't exist I would say it's a pretty good item. But since you want to fight Angels to get that extra spare bonus, Negotiation just becomes the least favourable distortion to trigger.
Speaking of items though I would like to share opinions on some of them-
- After playing through late loops, I(and probably most others) find inevitability to be not worth 30 influence or as a starter item. Even it's upgrade is kinda of a waste of influence. I don't think most people even use basic attacks after loop 1. It does have uses but definitely not to the extent that the other starter items do. Try to make use of it seems like a waste of Evacuation and extermination numbers.
-The omelette item seems overpriced. I feel like it should be 15~20 influence not 27(Unless the wiki is wrong). Maybe adding an effect where the energy given is +1 for every 5 levels of circumstance would be nice?
- I think the item upgrade which lowers requirements to 5M should either have a function to be turned off or have an alternative which increases the requirements instead. From my experience it's usually better to delay T3 actions and instead deal as much damage as possible rather than the opposite(Unless you face Angels) or maybe a seperate item which does this?
Honestly not triggering T3 at 100M meant I could do 1 small orgy and then do 2 bigger ones next day which meant my overall damage was actually higher than if the chosen used t3 moves. Don't know about others but I usually try to max out damage before t3 breaks because those can ruin orgies.
Of course this doesn't appy to Judgement or Victory who take way less damage. Judgement is impossible with it and Victory is a bit harder.
Other than that I had great items this loop- Newspaper,No penalty for Expo/Plea, +300 starting expo and Rampage control item.
It did made me wonder if a "Custom Campaign" mode could be added where you could add different effects and increase/decrease the influence gain throughout the campaign. Like "All T3 breaks require x100 trauma but gain an extra 5 influence per loop" or "Species chosen will appear from loop one but gain an extra item at the start".
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Info about influence from the
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-"Before starting the next Loop, the player is shown the amount of Influence they will have at the start of the next Loop along with difficulty modifiers for the city."
Yeah that is what the wiki
Yeah that is what the wiki says, but Id like the game to tell me and a place to consult it
yeah, you have them all under forsaken reference
best trait by A MILE is this one
Significant Innocence, Core Dignity: Notorious Publicist
Up to +200% own trauma damage per Parasitism performed
CSdev - might have found something for you to look at. I'm on R57c - taking a look at the decompiled code. And noticed that there might be a copying error in the chosen damage function -
If I'm reading that right, it looks like the angel's personal paradise bonus damage may be applying the devil's connoisseur of correction bonus damage instead. I don't exactly have an easy way to verify if this is a bug in-game, but it's probably something that could quickly be verified in the actual code.
Code:
else if (j == 25 && this.captured && w.usedForsaken != null && w.usedForsaken.personalParadiseBonus(w) > 10000) {
if (change < Long.MAX_VALUE / w.usedForsaken.correctionBonus) {
change *= w.usedForsaken.correctionBonus;
twos -= 4;
fives -= 4;
} else {
change /= 2L;
++twos;
--j;
}
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The traits are listed in the "species refrence.txt" file.
But, like all things dealing with the forsaken, it boils down to what you want the forsaken to do. I haven't actually gotten around to playing through a long campaign, so I haven't gotten into the nitty gritty of strategy. So; here's my limited analysis with that disclaimer
Baseline distortion traits - these are added to or modified by the chosen species, so I'll list them here for clarification. You can find them in the "forsaken refrence.txt" file. But, mostly, the traits just increase style damage for their specific circumstances. I know it says “circumstance”, but in practice calling it style damage is more appropriate, as the damage bonus also effects the related trauma, not just the circumstance damage. So +50% HATE will also translate to +50% FEAR damage. And, importantly, this bonus is multiplicative with other bonuses. One thing to note about this, Forsaken will only deal damage based on their style and any ongoing defiler action. While additional trauma damage will accrue due to the surround, any damage bonuses from the forsaken will not effect this damage. So if you have +50% style damage, it’s not going to boost the FEAR damage dealt if you don’t also use a style (or defiler) targeting HATE. I should also note that when using defiler actions; while all forsaken can inflict the basic 4 defilers, forsaken deal more damage when performing a defiler they are specialized in. Baseline, forsaken deal x1.1 damage, but their specialty uses a different formula (300 - effective disgrace*2)/100. So at 100% disgrace, the forsaken will deal x1 more damage, while at 50% they will deal x2 damage. So, at extremely high levels of disgrace forsaken might deal less damage in their specialty.
- Temptation - Eager Partner; While obedience is below 40%, PLEA and EXPO style damage is increased by +motivation% (so 100% motivation is +100% style damage, applying to both PLEA and EXPO circumstances, motivation is paid before battle begins). Just one thing to note, unlike the other traits this one's bonus is variable. So while it can potentially be higher than the other's, it can also be lower. And considering that a forsaken’s motivation cost is based on Hostility, a stat that temptation forsaken will naturally be lower on, and this might be an overall detriment.
- Defiler - Tempt; Swaps from current style to solo 1000% PLEA style in battle. While the trait also references an "extra damage multiplier at low disgrace", that might be referencing the basic defiler bonus damage, rather than anything extra. This action can cause the temp distortion. If that occurs, then the forsaken switches to a custom 1000% PLEA and EXPO combat style, while negating any trauma damage. This defiler can also potentially block the use of Slaughter or Detonate, if the temptation distortion is triggered.
- Aversion - Dissociative Identity; While consenting, training can only increase Disgrace. +50% HATE and INJU damage. I'm not actually seeing how the training mod works though, I'm not seeing where it's implemented in the code. But, assuming it's working, this basically as standard as distortions get.
- Defiler - Orgy. What it says on the tin. If you've got an already ongoing Defiler+ action, this lets you turn it into an orgy. Two things to note - first, the orgies damage will be degreased by the forsaken’s disgrace (base damage 200 - disgrace*2). So the resulting orgy will be less powerful than a baseline orgy. Second, the orgies duration is based on the duration of the ongoing Defiler+ action, not the lowest surround duration. This can effectively extend a chosen's surround duration if timed correctly.
- Rampancy - Demon Knight; Motivation lost when idle, and gained when deployed. Deployment cost = available EE, with strength scaling based on difference between paid cost and original cost. +50% damage to HATE and EXPO. Side note; two items can effect this scaling; Broken Psychometer and Fruit of Knowledge. Fruit of Knowledge does not decrease the cost of Rampancy forsaken. Rather, it doubles the "effective" cost paid to use them. So if you have 50 EE, then a Rampancy forsaken will treat that as if you paid 100 EE. This does not correlate to doubling the forsaken’s strength though. Additionally, Broken Psychometer prevents you from paying more than 100 EE on a forsaken, but Rampancy forsaken will still calculate their power based on your actual EE, not the amount you actually paid. Finally, when Morality is broken by a Corrupting Breeder, instead of reducing the EE cost, it multiplies the effective cost by up to 33%. One thing to note – a Demon Knights strength doesn’t increase/decrease linearly along with cost. This isn't a straight pay half EE, get half strength. The formula works out so that they will always be weaker than an equivalent cost forsaken. And the higher the deviation from their actual cost, the weaker they will be.
- Defiler - Rampage. Releases the target chosen, then stuns self for the remaining surround duration +1 (+2, but that includes the turn this is used). Then adds unique "Rampage" opening levels to the chosen. The exact formula is (surround duration +1 * inverse effective disgrace) (so 30% disgrace will keep 70% of the current surround duration when used). This is not effected by a chosen using detonate to end the surround early, but can be effected by other chosen abilities that change the surround duration. This opening levels last until your next surround.
- Negotiation - Flexible Peacemaker; Uses better between hostility and obedience to determine stamina regeneration and +50% PLEA and INJU. Fairly basic, the main ability helps to compensate for their innately higher stamina regeneration. However, the downside is that it has a tendency to tie stamina regeneration to their motivation cost. If their hostility is actually higher than their obedience, this ability functionally does nothing. It can help a bit though if you are using training to restore moral. Otherwise, they’ll probably have the same amount of downtime overall.
- Defiler - Traumatize. Stops dealing any style-based damage, and instead deals 1000% style damage to only DISG and PAIN. Circumstance damage is negated, but some FEAR and SHAM damage may still occur due to surrounds just innately damaging chosen.
- Megalomania - Ambitious Underling; They're your second in command! Which means that they can be deployed for free in the final battle, they cannot be trained without consent, and training cannot increase corruption. Due to their bonuses being tied to the position, not their trait, these bonuses can be lost. If this occurs, the trait will switch to the alternative listed below. Additionally, this trait still confers the baseline +50% HATE and PLEA damage standard to distortions traits.
- Alt; Usurped Authority; deals half damage in battle.
- Defiler – Maneuver. Adds +2 surround duration to the current surround, ends the turn (effective +1, but you can’t do anything else, like increasing your barrier for more damage).
- Despair – Humbled Hero/ine; In most cases, these are automatically spared, and provide double the passive bonus they would normally give. However, certain boss chosen can still continue fighting for you. In which case you can expect the standard +50% INJU and EXPO damage, with other effects depending on the boss. (this bonus is applied, even if the boss’s trait does not mention it. And if you somehow get a chosen to be un-spared, then they will likewise have the same bonus.)
Animalistic – Tier 2 damage. Baseline stats are +75% damage, -66% morale regen. Distortions trade +25% baseline damage (bringing it to 50%) for an increased +50% in that distortions favored damage types. This does make their baseline damage the same as superior chosen, so the extra ability they unlock needs to be worth the damage reduction.
- Megalomania – Pack Hunting; All other forsaken get +50% damage on the last target of this forsaken (so long as they hold the post of Second-in-Command). More damage? Yes please. Also buffs other forsaken, which isn’t something we see so early on in the campaign. Quite nice compared to the other bonuses.
- Negotiation – Playful Energy; When deployed at 100%+ stamina, deals an extra +50% damage (so 100% damage), and cost an extra +30% stamina to deploy. Quite the good bonus there. It let’s this forsaken hit like a devil. It does come at a pretty hefty downside, more than doubling the baseline stamina cost. But Flexible Peacekeeper’s already have good stamina regeneration, so this leans on their strengths.
- Aversion – Perfect Pet; Deals +50% damage to PLEA and EXPO, in addition to baseline HATE and INJU. There’s a lot of traits exactly like this, and my evaluation for all of them is going to be the same. They add flexibility, but not utility. They’ll allow you to ignore the distortions preferred fighting style, but as you only deal damage based on that fighting style, I’m not sure it’s really worth it? You really only want to use 1-2 target styles, with 3 target styles only benefiting high cost high damage forsaken. And if you want to deal a lot of damage to 3 categories, a demon commander is generally the better option. I will note that there is a potential edge-case use for this ability though; using a basic defilers. Since defilers add damage before distortion bonuses are calculated, they’ll benefit from this damage bonus as well (in this case, Force Orgasm or Penetrate). It’s a bit of an edge case, but something to keep in mind.
- Rampancy – Warbeast; When using release or rampage against a target that would fly, prevent flight. Causes 1 extra turn of stun after use. Not sure how I feel about this one. In my experience, once you’ve got multiple chosen in the battle you tend to want to use orgies as much as possible to maximize damage. So are you really going to have a chosen captured with a forsaken at the end of the battle anyways? I could maybe see this being more useful in the first couple of initial battles, before you’ve broken T2-3 vulnerabilities. Overall, it does add a bit of utility, but not much.
- Temptation – Feral Heart; Does nothing. Technically has two abilities; it retains the moral bonus damage when above 40% obedience. And, when idle while above 40% obedience, decreases obedience by 1% and morale by 50%. But those abilities also technically do nothing. Once a forsaken has fallen, you are in control of their corruption. So, why would you increase their obedience beyond 40%? And even though they retain their bonus damage, that damage is tied to their motivation, which is decreased by the second part of their ability. So. Once they go idle they’ll lose their damage bonus anyways. So, effectively, the only difference between this trait’s damage output and a superior forsaken with this distortion is the decreased moral recovery. I suppose there might be a bit of utility in being able to return to 40% obedience over time, but that’s not exactly a needed bonus in the first place. TLDR; don’t use tempt on animalist chosen, it’s not worth it. (I’d fix this by either removing the moral penalty, or making it a set +50% bonus damage regardless of morale.)
Undead – The tier 2 budget option. Costs 1/6 EE to deploy (1/4 with distortion), Motivation regeneration -66%. The decreased cost is effectively a +50% base damage, but it’s not as precise of a number. But in general these forsaken will be weaker than their animalist counterparts, but they tend to require less training, and need less disgrace training overall to lower their EE cost. So they may be easier to use and mold. They also seem to have better abilities overall.
- Rampancy – Energy Raider; Refunds 90% of EE deployment cost, but does not benefit from 1/4 deployment cost (effective disgrace is not decreased, unlike what happens with other sources of EE cost reduction). Now, granted, this trait does mean that this forsaken will be hitting like a baseline chosen, but the energy refund is extremely valuable. This negates the main cost of using rampancy forsaken, while also giving you a way to save EE against other undead chosen. All in all, a very powerful bonus, even if it’s at the cost of damage output. I’d suggest hyper specializing with a single category style to compensate.
- Temptation – Vitality Addict; retains damage bonuses when above 40% obedience. When increasing Trauma levels on chosen, increase stamina and morale by 1% per level. Can spend 100% stamina to capture flying chosen. All in all, really good bonuses. Keep in mind; temptation’s damage bonus is tied to moral, and this gives you a way to regenerate moral during battle. So you’re damage output will be increasing over time. And this is on trauma, not circumstantial, and tempt is equipped to pretty easily increase trauma due. So a very synergistic ability overall. Plus, being able to actually capture flying chosen is a lot better than the animalist equivalent of preventing flying. Utility and power, what’s not to like?
- Aversion – Shattered Soul; Can assume other distortion bonuses, but deal -20% damage when doing so. This permanently resets corruption stats, except for disgrace, to the minimum baseline stats of the chosen memory (distortions with only needed T2 broken, ‘virgin’ with no T1 breaks). Also resets Experience to 20k, with +10k for distortion specific experience. Can temporarily remove some statistics, but T3 break information and bonuses are retained. Additionally, defiler traits are retained when distorting memories. Which makes this trait extremely flexible trait. Want to combined Vitality Addict with Traumatize? It’s possible. You can also use it to completely reset corruption and experience values, letting you start over with a clean slate (except for disgrace). Finally, you retain your punisher effects even when under rewrite, so you can potentially get access to bonus effects that certain distortions wouldn’t have access to. All in all, not powerful, but very flexible.
- Negotiation – Necessary Sacrifice; another bonus to all style damage. Same reasoning as Perfect Pet, adds some flexibility but not in a particularly helpful way. Especially not when the undead aren’t exactly lacking when it comes to flexibility.
- Megalomania – Rise Again; Not penalized for losing Second-in-Command position. Which just means they don’t suffer from the half damage penalty, but they still cost more than a baseline undead to field, and have +50% HATE and PLEA style damage. But it’s a bit of a lackluster bonus, and I don’t know if it outways just sacrificing them or sparing them. All in all, not to exciting.
- Negotiation – Devil’s Contract; Flips negotiation bonus, instead of using best between hostility and obedience for stamina regeneration, use worst. Can be deployed regardless of stamina and motivation. If stamina is 0% or less, increase baseline damage bonus to 150%. 150% damage is an insane damage bonus. The other side of this ability, choosing the worse stat for stamina regeneration, Is a nice ability, but perhaps unneeded? They already don’t care about their motivation. All you need to do is work this forsaken to the bone. Side note – did you know that trainer forsaken have no downtime? Which means that they can’t increase stamina, motivation, and they can’t tantrum. A perfect position for this type of forsaken.
- Temptation – Connoisseur of Correction; Loses 1% obedience per day. Additionally, switches between two effects based on obedience. While below 40%; reduce all other forsaken motivation by 10% even when not deployed and deployment moral cost is reduced to 1/4th. When at or above 40%; add +5% compounding damage bonus to all other forsaken. This bonus is multiplicative with itself, and is applied to the actual damage dealt to the chosen. Due to the complexity of the code around that calculation, this might also increase the base damage chosen take to trauma while captured by a forsaken (damage not normally effected by the forsaken’s damage bonuses). These guys fill one of two rolls. While under 40% obedience, their reduced moral cost is a direct increase to their damage output, due to temptation distortions receiving a moral damage boost instead of a flat +50%. But personally? That doesn’t seem like the best way to use them. Instead, that +5% bonus damage to all forsaken when above 40% obedience is a much better bonus.
- Aversion – Personal Hell; Every time an orgy occurs (either by the orgy defiler ability or normally), the next capture in the same combat can capture a flying chosen. And this is reusable! I wouldn’t bank on being able to use it twice in the same combat, but it’s possible! Not as good as the damage boosting traits, but it is better than the other options to capture flying chosen as a forsaken.
- Megalomania – Hellish Discipline; As long as they are you’re second in command, forsaken cannot tantrum. This trait isn’t quite as impactful on actual battles and damage output as other traits, but it’s an important utility trait to have in your toolbox when dealing with a lot of devil forsaken, for obvious reasons.
- Rampancy – Unholy Avenger; another +50% all style damage bonus, see Perfect Pet for my thoughts on these. There’s no real difference between all of these.
- Despair – Accused Accuser; x2 bonus granted, on top of species and existing despair bonus. Not much to say about this one, but figured I’d mention it to be complete.
- Aversion – Unleashed Angel; +200% base damage. This is the better version of Perfect Pet’s bonus. Instead of just adding unneeded flexibility, this adds flexibility and damage. Although, due to the fact that bonus damage is multiplicative not additive, this still doesn’t have as much total damage as the Devil’s Contract provides (when taking the +50% style damage into account, which is effectively +275% damage). Still though, a rather powerful bonus
- Rampancy – Psychic Assault; +1000% base damage, but ignores circumstance multipliers to circumstance damage (not trauma). This is a bit of a tricky trait. Basically, it’s focused on dealing trauma damage, not circumstance damage. While it has a high amount of circumstance damage at Lv.0 – by Lv.2 that bonus damage is going to be much less than a flat +200% base damage x the INJU multiplier. So you’re not going to be able to rely on using this one for setting up future surrounds. Instead, this one excels at blitzing trauma damage when you already have high circumstance levels, or using the base trauma damage + rampancy to setup an even longer surround on the target. Still a good trait, but a bit more situational and harder to use than the flat damage bonus with no downsides.
- Negotiation – Absolute Devotion; Demon commanders get +25% damage for each retained Angle Forsaken. This extra damage is only visible on the forsaken menu of a forsaken with this trait (which is annoying). It’s not much initially, but since this stacks additively with itself, it’s a rather nice bonus to have in the late game. Helps to keep demons relevant. Not much to say about it otherwise though.
- Megalomanic – Positive Reinforcement; While second in command, all fallen receive 1/3 the damage boost from the Megalomanic achievement (Max bonus is 75%, so max bonus of +25% to everyone else). Just a standard bonus, but it needs a lot of setup to get to large values. Not sure how practical it is to do this, but it is flat damage, so at least one is still helpful.
- Temptation – Personal Paradise; While retained, all ex-partner forsaken restore all motivation every day, and deal +10% damage. The motivation bonus is the important part here, not the damage. Sure, an extra +10% is nice, but it’s also small. Do note – this bonus is not strictly limited to the chosen that fall alongside this one. It’s all former partner’s. Which means that if this forsaken was a returning chosen, they may be able to benefit more people than just the assumed two others. But I don’t think that strategy is all that practical. (maybe this should be extended to anyone they have a positive relationship with? Like family or friends?)
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Hate to triple post, but might have found a bug/confusing mechanic?
But, figured I'd ask before uploading anything - If an orgy is triggered with networked consciousness, is the initial duration treated as (lowest surround duration +1) for the purposes of aversion? I.E. if I have two chosen that trigger aversion at 7, in a Defile+ action, and I surround and start an orgy with someone at 6 opening levels, should that trigger the other's aversion?
But, figured I'd ask before uploading anything - If an orgy is triggered with networked consciousness, is the initial duration treated as (lowest surround duration +1) for the purposes of aversion? I.E. if I have two chosen that trigger aversion at 7, in a Defile+ action, and I surround and start an orgy with someone at 6 opening levels, should that trigger the other's aversion?
It would be nice to be able to use EE to transform a forsaken, the once-per-loop ritual is annoying and the body attribute bonuses would come in handy.
Are you OK with me adding this to the Wiki, or would you like to do so yourself? It's very thorough. I do play longer campaigns so I have a few additional thoughts on some of them.
I'm pretty sure that I've seen training paths that I would have expected to hurt Obedience and Disgrace end up only hitting Disgrace on these, so I think it's implemented correctly.
A moderately strong example:
Another solidly built Superior Forsaken:
A 16EE Undead has a Disgrace about 40%, an effective strength of 120%, while a standard Chosen costing 16EE will have a disgrace of 60% and an effective strength of 80%. This is the point where the bonus is exactly 50%. The strongest Forsaken I use for dealing 2 damage types are usually in this cost range. Above this cost point I use Animalistic or Demon Forsaken, or really, a lot of the time, above this point I'm mainly interested in utilizing a Punisher.
An 8 EE Undead has a Disgrace about 50%, for an effective strength of 100%, compared to an 8 EE standard Forsaken which has a Disgrace of 70% and an effective strength of 60%. This is the range I use for Forsaken that do very good single-type damage.
A 4 EE Undead with Disgrace 60% has an effective strength of 80%, while a 4EE basic Forsaken has a disgrace of 80% and an effective strength of 40%. I have commonly used this range for the majority of my Tempted Forsaken.
Another point in their favor is that if these have good Punishers you can take advantage of those abilities very easily since most of their cost will come back to you.
An example:
I had a very good one of these my last run but she kind of got semi-permanently maimed by a Devil Chosen using their version of Fantasize. So, uh, watch out for that!
She costs 117EE to deploy and gives any Forsaken she hits with Impregnate or Hypnosis a high-level bonus.
With Basic/Superior Chosen, I use this often to get the +100 EE from triggering it, then put them on either a Megalomania or a Despair path to strengthen those achievements. I don't usually keep these around--they get replaced when Superior/Undead start showing up.
I use these a lot on basic/Superior Chosen that have useful Punishers as it requires only T1 DIG break, keeping their Disgrace fairly high. In the end my goal is to replace these types of Forsaken with Undead whenever possible, which can have even higher DIG while still being usable.
I'm pretty sure that I've seen training paths that I would have expected to hurt Obedience and Disgrace end up only hitting Disgrace on these, so I think it's implemented correctly.
I basically don't use this on standard Chosen at all, except in the same way that I use Tempt for the quick EE bonus before conversion to a final Despair/Megalomania. Their inability to Release is especially hurtful for a Chosen that costs all your EE.
One of these set to 1000% INJU can be useful for a surprisingly long time due to the utility of INJU damage. Still, I'm eventually hoping to replace this with a Superior or Undead.
Forsaken that have no distinguishing Punishers will generally be fed to this Distortion, then Sacrificed unless I can build them into a usable role. If I've got multiples, there's...
If I've got multiple garbage Forsaken, I'll throw one away to Megalomania, and any others away with this. It's important to feed this Achievement some before you get to the point where every Loop is 20 days if you want this to be an option for later, when the EE cost of Despair goes up as you have more advanced species.
Release most helps Forsaken that deal INJU damage, as you can use Release instead of being caught in a Self-Destruct.
A moderately strong example:
Code:
Smasher
Real name: Aiko Kasumi
Stamina: 100.0%
Motivation: 100.0%
Expertise
HATE: 1 (x0.500 dmg)
PLEA: 1 (x0.500 dmg) (x1.275 dmg from releasable's hypnosis)
INJU: 426k (x1.450 dmg) (x1.680 dmg from drained opponents)
EXPO: 1 (x0.500 dmg)
x5.000 trauma dmg from parasitized opponents
Combat Style: Desperate (1000% INJU)
Lacking confidence in own abilities, acts with singleminded focus to disable the target. Useful early in the battle to increase future circumstance damage taken.
Training Plan: None
Remains idle when at full Stamina
Defiler Specialty: Traumatize (none)
Can stop dealing circumstance damage in order to greatly increase DISG and PAIN dealt
Trait: Superior Forsaken
Half motivation gain, +50% damage
Trait: Flexible Peacemaker
Uses better between Hostility and Obedience to determine Stamina regeneration. +50% PLEA and INJU damage
Consuming Harvester (+3.2% own INJU damage per Drain)
Notorious Publicist (+64% own trauma damage per Parasitism)
First Hypnosis: releasable (+27.5% PLEA damage)
First Drain: Haterape (-30% starting Obedience)
Hostility: 29% (Ambivalent about humanity)
Deviancy: 56% (Twisted sexual desires)
Obedience: 74% (Eagerly obeys)
Disgrace: 68% (Viewed with contempt)
Code:
Flame
Real name: Baisho Aiko
Stamina: 100.0%
Motivation: 100.0%
Expertise
HATE: 1 (x0.500 dmg)
PLEA: 27.0k (x1.045 dmg) (x1.253 dmg from hypnotized opponents) (x1.275 dmg from releasable's hypnosis)
INJU: 155k (x1.301 dmg) (x1.128 dmg from drained opponents)
EXPO: 183k (x1.326 dmg)
x8.700 trauma dmg from Haterape's parasitism
Combat Style: Wild (100% INJU/EXPO)
Attacks indiscrimiately, dealing as much damage to the target's clothes and surroundings as to the actual target. Highly effective at distracting an entire team for follow-up attacks.
Training Plan: None
Remains idle when at full Stamina
Defiler Specialty: Tempt (PLEA)
Can switch mid-battle to a high-PLEA combat style with an extra damage multiplier at low Disgrace, can cause and intensify Morality/Confidence Distortion against valid targets
Trait: Superior Forsaken
Half motivation gain, +50% damage
Trait: Eager Partner
While Obedience remains below 40%, bonus to PLEA and EXPO damage equal to Motivation
First Hypnosis: releasable (+27.5% PLEA damage)
First Parasitism: Haterape (+770% trauma damage)
Investigative Hypnotist (+3.2% own PLEA damage per Hypnosis)
Consuming Harvester (+3.2% own INJU damage per Drain)
Hostility: 40% (Pessimistic about humanity)
Deviancy: 63% (Fetishizes aberrant actions)
Obedience: 39% (Obeys due to expectation of rewards)
Disgrace: 68% (Viewed with contempt)I don't generally like Animalistic as much as I prefer Undead, but there are very useful niches for Animalistics to fill.
It's great. I'd usually like an Animalistic filling this position. Victory is great at it, but if you want to keep buffing the Achievement you kind of can't just leave someone here.
I agree with all of these. Here are some ammimmals
I basically want almost all of my Forsaken to be Undead at any particular time. A reduction in cost of 3/4 (I pretty much always use a Distortion) is mostly equivalent to an effective decrease in Disgrace of 20%. That's huge if you use little Forsaken for the key early phases of Loops, which is usually where Forsaken have the greatest advantage over Demons. I think that your estimate of 50% on the low side for most of the times you care about Forsaken damage.
A 16EE Undead has a Disgrace about 40%, an effective strength of 120%, while a standard Chosen costing 16EE will have a disgrace of 60% and an effective strength of 80%. This is the point where the bonus is exactly 50%. The strongest Forsaken I use for dealing 2 damage types are usually in this cost range. Above this cost point I use Animalistic or Demon Forsaken, or really, a lot of the time, above this point I'm mainly interested in utilizing a Punisher.
An 8 EE Undead has a Disgrace about 50%, for an effective strength of 100%, compared to an 8 EE standard Forsaken which has a Disgrace of 70% and an effective strength of 60%. This is the range I use for Forsaken that do very good single-type damage.
A 4 EE Undead with Disgrace 60% has an effective strength of 80%, while a 4EE basic Forsaken has a disgrace of 80% and an effective strength of 40%. I have commonly used this range for the majority of my Tempted Forsaken.
Agreed on all of this, except I have not found mine to suffer significantly from using both types of damage. I like to use mine in this position as a Trauma specialist to start generating more than 1EE straight from the beginning.
Another point in their favor is that if these have good Punishers you can take advantage of those abilities very easily since most of their cost will come back to you.
An example:
Code:
Slayer
Real name: Ushioda Tsubasa
Stamina: 47.0%
Motivation: 141.9% (max 142.0%)
Expertise
HATE: 57.0k (x1.154 dmg) (x1.334 dmg from impregnated opponents)
PLEA: 12.1k (x0.803 dmg)
INJU: 12.1k (x0.803 dmg)
EXPO: 93.6k (x1.227 dmg)
x26.600 trauma dmg from parasitized opponents
x9.400 trauma dmg from Menace's parasitism
Combat Style: Playful (100% HATE/EXPO)
Shows no respect for the target's abilities, directing all attacks at the target's clothing and obviously making no effort to actually defeat the target. Highly distracting to both the target and any teammates.
Training Plan: None
Remains idle when at full Stamina
Defiler Specialty: Rampage (none)
Can end the Capture early and stun self for the remaining duration in order to add opening levels to the next Surround against the target (higher with more remaining Capture duration and greater deployment energy)
Trait: Undead Forsaken
One-third motivation gain, Distortion trait changed
Trait: Demon Knight (Energy Raider)
Motivation lost when idle, gained when deployed, deployment cost and strength depend on Evil Energy, +50% HATE and EXPO damage
Refunds 90% of used Evil Energy after the battle
First Impregnation: Menace (+42.0% max Motivation)
First Parasitism: Menace (+840% trauma damage)
Notorious Publicist (+variable% own trauma damage per Parasitism)
Braggart Breeder (+variable% own HATE damage per Impregnation)
Hostility: 56% (Pessimistic about humanity)
Deviancy: 23% (Elaborate sexual fantasies)
Obedience: 31% (Obeys when convenient)
Disgrace: 55% (Seen as purely evil)These Chosen are really strong and efficient and getting one of these damage dealers is always a high priority for me.
I had a very good one of these my last run but she kind of got semi-permanently maimed by a Devil Chosen using their version of Fantasize. So, uh, watch out for that!
I always want to do something with these, but I never quite manage to. Did not know that they kept Defiler Traits at all, that's interesting. I should keep a few of these around for the many Devil Chosen using their version of Fantasize so they don't screw up my important Forsaken.
Agreed. I do find myself using Negotiated Undead quite a bit though, as they're among the easiest ways to get extra-strong Punishers on Forsaken that don't break the bank. An example:
Code:
Megalotrainia (formerly known as Overpowering Possessor Puppeteer)
Real name: Goto Gin
Stamina: 100.0%
Motivation: 100.0%
Expertise
HATE: 9656 (x0.741 dmg)
PLEA: 28.6k (x1.053 dmg)
INJU: 26.4k (x1.041 dmg)
EXPO: 15.1k (x0.878 dmg)
Combat Style: Practical (20% PLEA/INJU/EXPO)
Attempts to pin the target in a helpless position and then use a combination of pain and pleasure to disrupt any attempts at resistance. Relatively effective against targets who are too well-composed for emotional manipulation to work.
Training Plan: None
Remains idle when at full Stamina
Trait: Undead Forsaken
One-third motivation gain, 1/4 Evil Energy cost, Distortion trait changed
Trait: Flexible Peacemaker (Necessary Sacrifice)
Uses better between Hostility and Obedience to determine Stamina regeneration. +50% all circumstance damage
First Hypnosis: Flame (+3.2% Flame's PLEA damage)
First Drain: Smasher (+3.2% Smasher's INJU damage)
Scarring Breeder (+44.5% victim HATE damage as Forsaken)
Instructive Hypnotist (+44.5% victim PLEA damage as Forsaken)
Hostility: 50% (Pessimistic about humanity)
Deviancy: 53% (Twisted sexual desires)
Obedience: 57% (Obeys out of fear)
Disgrace: 11% (Still somewhat respected)The fact is that you need to get a lot of Second-in-Commands if you want to increase that multiplier, and one of these can still do the Maneuver Defiler (often quite useful) and deals bonus damage to both the Circumstances that increase Trauma Multipliers. Nothing amazing, like you said, but they are useful to keep around, on a Rapacious plan, and they can suck up hits from Demons using their Fantasize move without hitting the Forsaken you care about.
The Morale hit on a Forsaken-heavy roster like mine makes Devils hard to use. Mostly I try to send these up through Despair to build that achievement up and get longer Surrounds.
As you said, very strong. My last run didn't give me a very strong one of these to show off, and I don't feel like going back through earlier runs to find those that I did like. Very handy when Splendor's also damaging your Morale.
I agree with you. Make damn sure that you have it set to train Obedience though so it doesn't drop below 40% at inconvenient times in the short loops you're likely facing by the time Devil Chosen are commonplace.
Sometimes usable, especially against Devil Chosen as a way to get the first Orgy off. One of these has occasionally got me out of some pretty tight spots with mixes of Undead/Devil Chosen.
Not as useful as you might expect with Splendor damaging Morale, since most Forsaken are going to require Motivation to deploy. Another downside: if you're tackling Splendor first out of the bosses, you're probably going to want to put her in your Megalomaniac position to allow her to switch multiple traits next time, and thus she'll just outright kill any Devils you manage to trigger this on before the next boss.
I have a dream run where I use this along with Prism and Silver Bracelet to make something that deals exponentially more and more damage, but otherwise yeah.
I leaned into this a lot my last run and it went pretty well.
I've not really managed to try this one out yet. Note that the only Punisher Effects you can put on such an Angel would be Hypnosis (generally underwhelming effects) and Parasitism. I'd think this would be great eventually with self-buff Punishers on at least two stats.
Haven't really tired this out, because I think when I'm focused on doing Trauma damage, I'd rather just get most of my EE back rather than spend it all. I can imagine some lategame scenarios with items where this would be a more useful way to deal damage at the beginning of a loop.
In lategame, which Angels currently are, I only use Demon Commanders when I want to deal 3 or 4 Circumstances. And I've never run into a situation where I used one for that purpose and ended up not dealing enough damage. I suppose it could happen, though.
I suppose I would probably eventually like to put Love in this spot assuming she has some version of this ability. We'll see in a later patch.
This really requires a lot of luck, to get an Angel Chosen that is open to Temptation while there's another useful Chosen that shows up in the same fight. It's great when it works out that way.
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Sure, go ahead! I don't have an account on the wiki, so I'm fine with anyone else posting it there. If you're going to include the rankings, and not just the descriptions, just make sure it's clear that these rankings are an uninformed opinion. I did put a lot of work into digging through the decompiled files to check & verify everything, but that's no substitute for gameplay. I will note - I did need to make a small correction on devil forsaken. They do actually cost moral to deploy. I wasn't able to find where the moral cost was actually applied, and the in-game display doesn't line up the columns correctly, so I thought the extra cost was the base cost for deployment. Only noticed the issue when reading through your post.
I think I was probably starting with a high EE range, and calculating based on the base 1/6 cost rather than the 1/4. But I may have made a mistake when calculating, it does look like ~40% is the better estimate, which means that once you go lower than 60% disgrace (60% disgrace = 80 base damage +50% damage = 120 combined damage), the animalistic damage output starts to exceed that of undead. Which happens to occur right around 16EE. Might also want to note that after that point, undead might still be useful for their punisher effects.
CSdev Repeatable crash here when sending my Ambassador to Negotiate. Save name is "approachable".
Also typo discovered:
dekeche I'm probably going include the descriptions without the rankings. It'd also be neat to include examples of the Forsaken types I build for all of them that I use, with brief descriptions of how they're used, not just those useful lategame.
Also typo discovered:
Should be "diligent", I'm fairly certain. Although given the context I'd like to coin the neologism "dickligent".Corrupted Saviors said:
dekeche I'm probably going include the descriptions without the rankings. It'd also be neat to include examples of the Forsaken types I build for all of them that I use, with brief descriptions of how they're used, not just those useful lategame.
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Sadly You can't set training plan to obedience for tempted devils. So the more of them you get the more management you have to do which makes the 5% bonus seem too low.
What I wanna see is prism + Rampage Angel on an unfocused combat style. A 1 energy forsaken with 1000%+ Octuple damage.
Also one thing i haven't tried yet is to get the deployment flip for Splendor and use her as the main forsaken. By foregoing the third motivation flip you could try Negotiation Devil/Rampage forsaken as main fighting force. Which leads in to Judgement on rampage getting bonuses for tantrums when you get her.
If that's the case... then they are pretty bad. Which is a shame, they don't give that much of a bonus. So I don't think that level of risk is necessary. Maybe instead they should drain the motivation/stamina of the trainer when set to obedience? That way you can't have too many of them at once, but it's a lot less micromanagement to maintain their bonus.
I did have one my last run, but I needed to sacrifice it and didn't check whether this was an option. Thanks for letting me know that doesn't work.
I agree--in late loops where basically everything is 20 days, you don't have enough time to manually train Forsaken to keep them from fucking up your roster. Maybe instead of lowering the Motivation cost for deployment, deployment could instead raise Obedience. That would still keep you from having a bunch of these but I think it'd be a fairer trade overall.
I've sent Forsaken out with larger (Trauma) multipliers than 80 on an effective strength of 2%. Results are not very impressive.
I love my Punishers too much to try that.
Here's a first pass at making your post dekeche into a guide. I feel like I did enough work on it to be worthy of second billing in the title, let me know if you disagree.
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Oh yeah base damage is based around reputation right? Still worth trying on a bit higher energies though.
Btw can't you use velvet key with Splendor to make her better? Of course the preparation for it might not be worth it though. Especially since the item is not guaranteed to appear.
I've never had the item show up. It definitely seems like it'd be a fun one to use.