I’ll counter with every single RPGM game ever made.
Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.33] [Savin/Salamander Studios]
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So from the comments:
Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim(depending on the person) = COC1
Fallout 76, Starfield = COC2
Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim(depending on the person) = COC1
Fallout 76, Starfield = COC2
Nah, there's a couple standard combat systems the vast majority of games fall into but there are also some who try and shake it up for better or worse, first one that springs to mind is Karyns's prison. Turns it into a resource management based system with damage being centered around a stance based combat triangle.
- Jan 31, 2022
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Pure nonsense. Go back to the beginning of virtual roleplaying games and point me to the games that DIDN'T focus on combat. Never heard of Darklands? Wizardry? Wasteland? This imaginary idea that RPGs should focus on story and only make a serviceable gameplay is ENTIRELY modern, result of the genre becoming mainstream.
Going back to the discussion. Honestly, this game's combat is a fucking piece of shit. I think I'm reasonable with my criticism of the game, but I just can't stand the fucking card game RPG shit and the need to have a bunch of fucking shadows following me everywhere because the hero of the story can't handle some goddamned wolves. What a disgrace. Xianxia has problems, but it's a thousand times more enjoyable than the trash Savin came up with.
I wish we could use wild animals in the place of companions. We're basically giving kill commands already, so I'd rather hang out with some wolves and bears and sic them at people. At least we'd look more competent that way, instead of having to rely on whores.
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- May 25, 2020
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if you include the moddablity of the above games then the comparison is even more apt.
- Aug 27, 2022
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Xia at the very least trys to have a decent combat system smh.My experience as a charmer in coc2 after some levels was as follows:
1.press allure
2.press allure
3.press ultimate
4.press allure
5.Watch your goons kill everything if you havent already killed them yourself
6.Profit
My experience as a warrior:
- Cleave
- Random single-target ability
- Random single-target ability
- Basic attack
- Repeat
- Oct 15, 2020
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Don't try to diminish my argument by calling it nonsense, jackass. You don't agree? Fine, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. I will repeat once more, role-paying games, virtual or not, are about story, characters, and player freedom. I said that combat was ancillary (look it up), and I used an example to illustrate my point. If you can't understand plain fucking English, don't fucking reply.
Nobody's agreed on the "what is an RPG" discussion for the last 40 years, doubt we're going to solve it now.
I'm flashing back to impassioned back and forth on forums when I was in high school about how JRPGs weren't real RPGs and it was a weeb conspiracy slapping the label on them...
I'm flashing back to impassioned back and forth on forums when I was in high school about how JRPGs weren't real RPGs and it was a weeb conspiracy slapping the label on them...
- Jan 31, 2022
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You used a single game to illustrate a point I already explained. RPG only started being visual novels with a leveling system recently. It has always been about gameplay, even if it is aimed at specific niches.
And I already gave more examples than you, lol. New Vegas is a recent game. More examples then, this time of "modern" consoles. Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 3, Fallout 4, multiple Final Fantasy games, multiple Dragon Quests, multiple Tales of, most of the Megaten games, Dark Souls, Demon Souls, Bloodborne, Pokémon. Want more? Those are considerably recent games. If I want to completely null your argument I could just point, again, to Darklands, Ultima, Wizardry, Might and Magic, Everquest, Wasteland, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil and an endless amount of dungeon crawlers I can't remember.
Are those supposed to be examples of games that are RPGs which focus on combat? Because right off the bat, Morrowind is nothing like Skyrim, to say nothing of the Dark Souls titles (which I don’t think anyone classifies as RPGs; they’re usually considered action-adventure games).
Yeah, it’s kind of fucked now, because too many people equate stats and levelling (which are a mechanic) with RPGs (which are a type of game experience).
- Oct 4, 2020
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Best RPG at the of the day is Underrail, followed by NW, so I do not care about petty squabble of the large masses.
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I don't care what some specific people arbitrarily define as RPG. But let's say we exclude From's games, what about the rest? How is Morrowind being different than Skyrim relevant in ANY WAY? I'm giving examples of games of the genre, not making comparisons between games within a franchise for whatever reason. Address the point. Also, address the old games. I'd like to see how you're going to paint Icewind Dale and Temple of Elemental fucking Evil as anything but RPGs. Lol, lmao.
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- Oct 15, 2020
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First off, you mean the point that I explained, not you. But if you want more examples of good RPGs with shit-to-mid combat, off the top of my head:
The first 2 Fallout games
Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
The Elder Scrolls games after Daggerfall, maybe including Skyrim depending on your point of view
Pillars of Eternity
Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines
Visual novels? Don't make me laugh. They're not 30 hours of crawling through some fucking dungeon if that's what you mean, but they're not bereft of gameplay by any stretch.
These are all examples that I would cite, except Fallout 4 and maaaaybe Skyrim, so what's the issue here?
So what? Game design has evolved, so everything I say is invalid? Well, in that case, why don't we just all just play Donkey Kong from here to eternity?
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What are you on? Skyrim is a terrible RPG. It’s more like a sandbox with the veneer of an RPG in my book. (It does have pretty bad combat, though.)
- Aug 16, 2017
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Yep. I'm an unabashed Skyrim fan, put over 10,000 hours into it across the two editions, and was megahyped for ES6. Was. Bethesda's unrelenting shitfuckery since and the mess that Starfield clearly is has me in the mindset that ES6 can wait until a) it's discounted and b) there's a clear consensus that it's a decent game, which frankly I doubt will be the case.
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Good job moving the goalpost.
Fallout 3 has the most idiotic story I've seen in a post apocalyptic story and I say with confidence that most people don't give a fuck about it. The main town of the game is built around a nuke. I'm sure that can stand even the lightest amount of scrutiny, like the rest of the main quest and the return of dead factions like the BoS and the Enclave.
Morrowind and Oblivion are even worse with their MQ. You don't have a single relevant choice in Morrowind and Oblivion makes everyone immortal on top of that. Where are the choices you're speaking of?
Your arbitrary idea of a RPG is entirely irrelevant. Story started as a second thought and you can't counterpoint that because it's a fact. No, gameplay is not secondary, never was. Why the fuck do you think people play DnD 3.5 even today? More examples: Eberron, Pathfinder, V20, Werewolf the Apocalypse, Dragonlance and so on. Not because of the mechanics i.e GAMEPLAY?
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I'll preface this by saying that there are very few RPGs I haven't played from the start of the seventh gen downwards.
Honestly I could go on. Extensively. I can list far more games where combat was one of the pillars of the game design philosophy than there are games which completely phoned it in intentionally.
Almost all of them try and tried hard.
I'll also state that hyperfocusing on that single element of gameplay filters a substantial amount of the nuance involved in designing systems for nearly every game that's going to be discussed.
And it wasn't ancillary to the folks at Obsidian making the games you're listing. Fallout New Vegas for example had Larry Liberty going on back when trying to hype the game up specifically on the combat.
Reviewers of the time loved and praised the combat to the point that they were gushing over guns being slightly different.
Josh Sawyer of the same game and greater fame has an incredibly large well thought out breakdown in the importance of balance in regards to the importance of gameplay (specifically balance).
Which also includes the Pillars of Eternity you're unreasonably listing as an example as a game with terrible combat.
Chris Avellone, another of the great industry gave his answer on what he thought was the most important thing in an RPG
Moreover
(maybe I should start quoting relevant parts of interviews)
Combat wasn't ancillary to these people.
One of the lessons Chris stated he learned from the phenomenal Planescape Torment was specifically addressed towards the pacing and including more gameplay
Lastly
I don't even need to use my own words, the quote itself does a good enough job.
TL;DR
Even in the games where the story far outstrips the combat, the gameplay was intended to be just as important and fleshed out as the rest of the game.
Bit of a winded response and viciously off topic so I won't be joining this ring again.
A bit of a reductive outside looking in observation of RPGs as a whole. Might and Magic, Wizardry, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, every single jrpg created by Kawazu, Etrian Odyssey, Shadowrun: Dragonfall, DOS, ToEE, Dungeon Siege, and...
Honestly I could go on. Extensively. I can list far more games where combat was one of the pillars of the game design philosophy than there are games which completely phoned it in intentionally.
Almost all of them try and tried hard.
I'll also state that hyperfocusing on that single element of gameplay filters a substantial amount of the nuance involved in designing systems for nearly every game that's going to be discussed.
No it doesn't. Various Daylife has terrible Combat. Dragon Age: Inquisition has mediocre combat. Fallout New Vegas had decently good combat that used it's RPG elements to influence combat performance.
And it wasn't ancillary to the folks at Obsidian making the games you're listing. Fallout New Vegas for example had Larry Liberty going on back when trying to hype the game up specifically on the combat.
Reviewers of the time loved and praised the combat to the point that they were gushing over guns being slightly different.
Josh Sawyer of the same game and greater fame has an incredibly large well thought out breakdown in the importance of balance in regards to the importance of gameplay (specifically balance).
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.Which also includes the Pillars of Eternity you're unreasonably listing as an example as a game with terrible combat.
Chris Avellone, another of the great industry gave his answer on what he thought was the most important thing in an RPG
You must be registered to see the links
Moreover
That's a paddling. The combat in Arcanum isn't the best, well balanced, well polished, or even particularly good when weighed against it's peers but that's not for lack of trying and the mechanics going into the world were, at least on a conceptual level, well thought out. They didn't toss shit to the wind. They tried. Mistakes were made sure.
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(maybe I should start quoting relevant parts of interviews)
You must be registered to see the links
HALF of this interview for the game at the time by multiple people in charge is about the gameplay mechanics and their attention to detail in the combat systems involved.Combat wasn't ancillary to these people.
One of the lessons Chris stated he learned from the phenomenal Planescape Torment was specifically addressed towards the pacing and including more gameplay
It's a balance with multiple foundations that are all equally important (dependent on the game)
Lastly
Keeping with the theme they both
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I don't even need to use my own words, the quote itself does a good enough job.
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TL;DR
Even in the games where the story far outstrips the combat, the gameplay was intended to be just as important and fleshed out as the rest of the game.
Bit of a winded response and viciously off topic so I won't be joining this ring again.
That's why I mentioned paradox. RPGM is just a vehicle and interesting games with interesting systems have been made using it.
- Oct 15, 2020
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I'm not shifting the goalposts; you're imagining goalposts that aren't there. I said that they were examples of good RPGs, not that they were perfect RPGs. Yeah, they have flaws, big ones. You wanted more examples because oNe'S noT EnOugh, so I gave you more. I didn't grow up listening to Motley Crue 8-tracks, so I don't have your nostalgia for old 8-bit tat that needs to left in 1987 where it belongs.
I said combat was secondary, not gameplay. Are you blind or just bad at English?
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- Oct 15, 2020
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I don't want to say this, really, because usually it's a cop out, but this is my opinion. I think you're brought out all of these guys who outrank me because you think I'm trying to speak some sort of gospel truth or whatever. I'm not. This is my opinion. These are the ideas that I've come away with from my own experience playing video games. I feel very strongly about my opinions, which is why I'm defending them, but whatever you're trying to accomplish by posting all of this stuff, it's not going to happen.