Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.8.4] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[devilaffect]

i wouldnt give a fuck about pace if updates were slow and characters got fat 50~page drops that added substance/extended their characterization. i think inconsequential characters who sit around like furniture bloat this project. the only purpose they serve is to not step on the toes of the original characters/writers intention. Instead of being flexible together they learned the wrong lesson and split ideas/characters apart that would be better merged. it's a broken system that slows the pace bc these characters keep requiring circling back to to fluff up

novel sized characters are worth more than 10 pieces of furniture

We can be just as if not more passionate with our criticism and i hate the smut equivalent of fast food and this idea we should be accepting of what we get when it's been years and years and years of "look how they massacred my boy"


don't bring up weekly updates when it hasn't been like that in forever, and you even said it yourself this medium isn't measured in gross production. I would argue the updates actually are indicative of what goes on behind the scenes as fluff for inconsequential characters is always drawing away manpower

will, a community favorite writer, received no leniency from savin, and if he did well it wasn't enough, that's how much people like will and dislike savin

That's fine that you like novel sized characters, but we are just circling back to everybody has their own taste and no person is objectively right. Just enjoy the content that you like and ignore the content that you don't. Also, I would adamantly disagree with it slowing the pace of the game. If anything writing novel sized characters every time would just lead to burnout, which we saw with Will. These smaller characters tend to act as palate cleansers or function as ways to explore ideas that you wouldn't otherwise. Take Hugs with Liamme for example. If he didn't take the time to write a smaller character he possibly would have never realized he liked writing femboys.

I do think i didn't quite word the gross production part because it is a lot more complicated than that. What it essentially boils down to is the fact that a lot of what we interact with in game is in fact only a small portion of what was actually written due to variations that the writers try to hit in each piece of content. For example, it might not seem like vanilla Kyoko was over 200 pages of writing, but she was entire novel in and of herself at release, yet you just don't typically see everything on any single playthrough. That's not to mention futureproofing as much as possible on the backend so you don't end up with another technically correct coding situation and break the entire game.

As for what's going on behind the scenes they tend to be pretty upfront about what they are currently working on and most of the delays can be attributed to holidays or larger pieces of content such as dungeons or new explorable areas. Look back at the past year, it's typically 7-10 days between each patch and a lot of those have major content pieces or major backend changes. That's not to mention that we have no idea what the submission backlog actually looks like considering plenty of scenes not on the forums pop up pretty regularly.

 

[Yeppers34]

A. You replied to the wrong person.

B. Income and passion are not mutually exclusive like you yourself say when it comes to Larian. Except, Larian had a budget of over 100 million dollars and the near entirety of their world building and a huge portion of their overarching combat mechanics are already pre-established. They are also based in Poland where as much as half of the cost of their developers is tax deductible for copyrighted works. Not to mention the cost of living in Poland is significantly lower than the US or Canada where most of the devs live, while most of the target audiences will still be paying rates that are tailored to their more expensive regions.

C. The main quest not progressing is not an objectively bad or good thing. This gets brought up all the time and just reeks of main character syndrome. You are not the only person who plays the game just like I am not the only person who plays the game. Slowing main quest development and not throwing every bit of your resources at it is not an inherently bad thing and many people enjoy interacting with side characters. You are not the only fan of the game and they are not catering solely to you or I. The fandom is not a monolith and you definitely don't represent them as a whole. That's just plain egotistical.

Normally i would agree with taking time with the main story, I would prefer a creator take their time and make sure that the main story gets the tender love and care it deserves...but khor'minos dropped on November 1st of 2021 and the story has been hard stuck there since, to compare story progression as a snails pace would be generous

 

[Sacred_Lamb]

There really isn't. You don't seem to understand the difference between implementation and submission. As MarvintheBee posted in a screenshot, Viv was submitted before the deadline for submission. Viv wasn't put in late because there was never a deadline for companions being implemented, only being written with publicly available criteria. Einen on the other hand was 90% outline at the time where submissions were closed.

I wish I snapped a couple screenshots for that issue but I ain't copping Alterism style, many talked about it. You can't claim truth n neither can I since the grapevine is filled with gossipers but if Will had two days, being a fan fav n not getting at least a pink slip then catching nothing but shade from the head Dev causally while he's not around stinks of "pecking order" type behavior.

 

[Sacred_Lamb]

The main quest not progressing is not an objectively bad or good thing. This gets brought up all the time and just reeks of main character syndrome. You are not the only person who plays the game just like I am not the only person who plays the game. Slowing main quest development and not throwing every bit of your resources at it is not an inherently bad thing and many people enjoy interacting with side characters. You are not the only fan of the game and they are not catering solely to you or I. The fandom is not a monolith and you definitely don't represent them as a whole. That's just plain egotistical.

This is the type of apologetic shit that crashes projects, lets assholes getaway with theft, and stops crowds from seeing when they're going to be robbed by charlatans. Giving Yandere Dev flashbacks

 

[Bleh21]

Yes for sub stuff just look for any futa character sissy stuff no idea
ntr routes no scenes yes cait your first companion will have a few but dosen't make sense because she fucks everything with a pulse Eubicha a centaur follower has scenes where you give her to different futas thats all i can think of at the minute
and finally bimbos yes at the start of the game a hive of wasp girls are turned into bimbos during the quest for the hive you can leave it corrupted or cleanse it if you leave it corrupted you can turn a wasp girl companion and the priestess into bimbos WARNING this route has zero content and has been like that for years

I don't mean individual scenes. Im talking about actual development beyond you talk to this character and you have this selection of scenes available. Like Sarah had an entire quest chain of saving her shop/ breaking her. Same with NTR and Cait, I'm sure she gets fucked, but is there anything besides the individual scenes?
The Bimbo route seems to be what I'm thinking of but looks like its a dead end.

 

[YouShallNotLol]

This is the type of apologetic shit that crashes projects, lets assholes getaway with theft, and stops crowds from seeing when they're going to be robbed by charlatans. Giving Yandere Dev flashbacks

Bro, that motherfucker came here litrally straight from the Fenforum echochamber. What else do you expect from him other than ravenously licking Savin's asshole?

 

[dolosolo]

That's fine that you like novel sized characters, but we are just circling back to everybody has their own taste and no person is objectively right

why even speak at all then, do you think youve shifted opinions today?

Just enjoy the content that you like and ignore the content that you don't

doing this is easy, ignoring their design philosophy is hard

These smaller characters tend to act as palate cleansers or function as ways to explore ideas that you wouldn't otherwise.

do there need to be so many of them? i dont think so

If anything writing novel sized characters every time would just lead to burnout, which we saw with Will.

im of the opinion therapy fixes this easily, and that you cant apply this to everyone, even then is there anyone else similar bc atm i dont see correlation. hugs writing femboys is an entirely different conversation. finding out what youre into bc of a character or what you arent into halfway through a character.. yeah they need to go to therapy. burnout doesnt magically go away bc you shit out 10 new pages of set dressing. the issue is being sidestepped, they need to go to therapy if the concern is burnout.

For example, it might not seem like vanilla Kyoko was over 200 pages of writing, but she was entire novel in and of herself at release, yet you just don't typically see everything on any single playthrough. That's not to mention futureproofing as much as possible on the backend so you don't end up with another technically correct coding situation and break the entire game.

you dont need to explain the main draw of the game to me

As for what's going on behind the scenes they tend to be pretty upfront about what they are currently working on and most of the delays can be attributed to holidays or larger pieces of content such as dungeons or new explorable areas. Look back at the past year, it's typically 7-10 days between each patch and a lot of those have major content pieces or major backend changes. That's not to mention that we have no idea what the submission backlog actually looks like considering plenty of scenes not on the forums pop up pretty regularly.

i appreciate changes like the charmer rework but this pov requires blind faith, noone has that anymore

 

[YouShallNotLol]

I don't mean individual scenes. Im talking about actual development beyond you talk to this character and you have this selection of scenes available. Like Sarah had an entire quest chain of saving her shop/ breaking her. Same with NTR and Cait, I'm sure she gets fucked, but is there anything besides the individual scenes?
The Bimbo route seems to be what I'm thinking of but looks like its a dead end.

Sarah? You mean Sera? And by "that cop character" I presume you meant Riya?
If so, no. Nothing even close to either of those exists in CoC2.

 

[Sacred_Lamb]

Like Sarah had an entire quest chain of saving her shop/ breaking her. Same with NTR and Cait, I'm sure she gets fucked, but is there anything besides the individual scenes?
The Bimbo route seems to be what I'm thinking of but looks like its a dead end.

Nah bro, this ain't that type of Dev team. Its a one and done, with rarely any references that aren't frivolous.

 

[Sacred_Lamb]

doing this is easy, ignoring their design philosophy is hard

Its so fucking hard, especially when you read the original and Coc2's design Doc. Had me like "WTF happened?!"

 

[Bleh21]

B. Income and passion are not mutually exclusive like you yourself say when it comes to Larian. Except, Larian had a budget of over 100 million dollars and the near entirety of their world building and a huge portion of their overarching combat mechanics are already pre-established. They are also based in Poland where as much as half of the cost of their developers is tax deductible for copyrighted works. Not to mention the cost of living in Poland is significantly lower than the US or Canada where most of the devs live, while most of the target audiences will still be paying rates that are tailored to their more expensive regions.

I wont stand for Larian slander here lol. 100 million is nothing compared to what some of these games cost, to transform that money to one of the best games of all time instead of battle pass/battle royale/loot boxes/DLC/Selling skins etc to try to get back all the money is a feat of incredible passion. Get the fuck outta here with that garbage.

They are not exclusive but its incredibly easy to see what is a money farm and what is a work of passion just based on player sentiment. Ravager gets almost no complaints despite being long running. Just see the massive discrepancy of feedback between Noxus Knights and Kingdom of Deception or The Witcher games and Cyberpunk 2077 or to what Cyberpunk was initially to what it is now.

 

[devilaffect]

A. I didn't, I was agreeing with that guy

B. Larian created Divinity Orginal Sin 2 off of Kickstarter, where they rose to prominence off of fans excitement alone. They had a good idea, and pitched it out there. They didn't know if it would work, but they respected the money fans gave them to reach their stretch goals. That's the same exact passion that's missing from this equation, when it comes to CoC2.

C. I'm one fan who doesn't represent the whole, yet there's plenty who feel the exact way I do. That's not egotistical, that's called speaking what everyone's already thinking.

I'm just outlining their problems, if you disagree you don't have to try and attack me for it. Just say so, say why, and keep it cordial.

A. Fair enough that's my bad.

B. I can't even remotely debate you on that as it's entirely subjective on whether or not you think there's passion in any given project. I will say that Larian has been established for nearly 30 years as an actual studio working on CRPGs the entire time so they likely had a lot more experience than Savin's team in comparison. A more apt comparison would Divine Divinity or Divinity 2, which while I enjoyed were far less polished projects than what you would expect from current Larian. People tend to get better at their jobs over time and everybody on the team has stepped into a new pair of shoes that they may or may not have tangential experience in. I'm also not saying you can't be critical of how they are operating, but complaining in generalizations and vague criticisms doesn't tend to actually accomplish much. Not to mention a lot of people don't even know basic facts on how the game is run or most of the more controversial happenings in the community. As for goals, those aren't really listed anywhere or were strictly outlined at any point. Larian would also likely be held with some level of civil or legal liability depending on local laws if they didn't uphold previously made promises for financial backing.

C. "speaking what everyone" It 100% sounds like ego when you say that. The thing about complaining about things on the internet is that the people who are enjoying something and don't see any reason to change it, don't feel the need to be vocal. By that measure the people complaining appear represent a larger portion of the community than what they actually do. Not to mention, plenty means nothing when it's a handful of people complaining in a manner that isn't conducive to actual change and most of those complaints are entirely subjective tastes like fetishes, power fantasy, or tone.

To be clear, I'm not trying to attack you as a person in any way, but if something has a certain connotation to it I will call it out. I'm not asserting that as a whole you are egotistical, but when you try to present yourself as representing the whole of a fandom that is absolutely an act of ego. I was merely attacking the way your argument was presented and not you as a person. It is entirely my fault for not articulating that more clearly. You seem like a very reasonable person and as we all have our own ego to contend with, I hope you would do the same if I were in your shoes. My apologies for any sort of confusion or offense on my part.

 

[Bleh21]

Nah bro, this ain't that type of Dev team. Its a one and done, with rarely any references that aren't frivolous.

Nah bro, this ain't that type of Dev team. Its a one and done, with rarely any references that aren't frivolous.

Alright skipping this game then. Just seems like an inferior game to the other two.

 

[devilaffect]

I wont stand for Larian slander here lol. 100 million is nothing compared to what some of these games cost, to transform that money to one of the best games of all time instead of battle pass/battle royale/loot boxes etc to try to get back all the money is a feat of incredible passion. Get the fuck outta here with that garbage.

They are not exclusive but its incredibly easy to see what is a money farm and what is a work of passion just based on player sentiment. Ravager gets almost no complaints despite being long running. Just see the massive discrepancy of feedback between Noxus Knights and Kingdom of Deception or The Witcher games and Cyberpunk 2077 or to what Cyberpunk was initially to what it is now.

I said absolutely none of that. I didn't even bring Larian up, nor did I disparage them in any way. What I did say is that they had massive fiscal advantages due to where they operate out of. I said this because it's not even a remotely fair comparison for a dev studio with nearly three decades of experience in their genre, an established IP, established lore, established combat mechanics, and a likely seasoned team of veteran developers to a passion project started by one person into a development team.

 

[Sacred_Lamb]

Seigwulfe

Seigwulfe had such a sick design, props to Adj but the biimbo route can kick rocks. Wish they'd let ppl write some content for her already n stop gatekeeping.

Alright skipping this game then. Just seems like an inferior game to the other two.

That's totally fair bro, save yourself of the mediocrity. Worst part about that jab I made is that not only does it apply to majority of the content offered but No-one can dispute it.

 

[devilaffect]

why even speak at all then, do you think youve shifted opinions today?

Because I care about the well being of the devs and am cognizant of the fact that spouting random unnecessary complaints both drowns out the real and well though out critiques, as well as annoying them until they give up on the community.

doing this is easy, ignoring their design philosophy is hard

There's nothing saying any portion of the games design philosophy can't evolve or change. It could be bad or it could be good. They seem to not be losing supports, so I would be apt to say it leans towards good.

do there need to be so many of them? i dont think so

im of the opinion therapy fixes this easily, and that you cant apply this to everyone, even then is there anyone else similar bc atm i dont see correlation. hugs writing femboys is an entirely different conversation. finding out what youre into bc of a character or what you arent into halfway through a character.. yeah they need to go to therapy. burnout doesnt magically go away bc you shit out 10 new pages of set dressing. the issue is being sidestepped, they need to go to therapy if the concern is burnout.

That's really not up to you to decide now is it? I think I'll go with the community writers and how they've dealt their burnout. What do you honestly think a therapist is going to tell them to do? It would probably being along the lines of taking a break or writing something you want to write instead of what the community wants you to write. People don't just go to therapy for every single problem they have. That's just an insane thought process to not even consider attempting to solve your problems on your own terms first.

i appreciate changes like the charmer rework but this pov requires blind faith, noone has that anymore

No, it just requires reading the patch notes and seeing when the mentioned content gets added.

 

[Bleh21]

I said absolutely none of that. I didn't even bring Larian up, nor did I disparage them in any way. What I did say is that they had massive fiscal advantages due to where they operate out of. I said this because it's not even a remotely fair comparison for a dev studio with nearly three decades of experience in their genre, an established IP, established lore, established combat mechanics, and a likely seasoned team of veteran developers to a passion project started by one person into a development team.

We can do the comparison but its never gonna be in your favor. Lets just do Divinity 1. The original Kickstarter made 950k and they made Divinity Original Sin out of it. Its their first of these types of games, It was critically acclaimed and every release since then just improved on that foundation. This Dev team far surpassed that 950k amount quite a while ago for a text based game and the quality is apparently somehow worse then their other games lol.

The divinity games aren't a pre established IP, The combat was incredibly unique as they had to transform the table top mechanics into an actual video game mechanics. Its at least a ~million times more unique then CoC which is a mix of fantasy, porn and cyoa. They have enough experience and funding by now that they should be able to blow a game like divinity 1 out of the water. But they can't even do any meaningful progress on a fucking tex based game. Its embarrassing that you are trying to compare these two.

 

[B-52 Stratofortress]

I'm glad we established that you have nothing of substance to say.

I find it interesting that you come out here swinging like that with nothing to back you up.
It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off.

 

[Walk Cycle]

I find it interesting that you come out here swinging like that with nothing to back you up.
It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off.

I mean if he compared me to the worst writer in the game I'd be pretty offended too.

 

[Sacred_Lamb]

I said absolutely none of that. I didn't even bring Larian up, nor did I disparage them in any way. What I did say is that they had massive fiscal advantages due to where they operate out of. I said this because it's not even a remotely fair comparison for a dev studio with nearly three decades of experience in their genre, an established IP, established lore, established combat mechanics, and a likely seasoned team of veteran developers to a passion project started by one person into a development team.

Spoiler: Le receipt

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Regardless, both Studios (if you can even call Savin n Co a studio) got it out the mud, Savin is supposed to be the experienced lead here n even if he isn't its not like there isn't a whole library worth of info in Video form to help coach him, hell I'm studying programming so I can make my own off youtube. He even had a design doc n still couldn't follow it, they just suck. Reminds me of the proverb: "The blind leading the blind can only go in circles." Seem like its going to go the same way Tits is going but I the the whales will keep them from falling anytime soon.