Could incest stories be more believable?

[W22N]

I've played a bunch of incest games and (besides the repetitive storylines and dead fathers etc) I can't really find stories that are immersive and feel somewhat real at the same time.

I started to think about it and now I'm wondering if that kind of writing can exist. We're a bunch of degenerates trying to fuck our families in a videogame, so we (or someone) will always choose the options that will lead to sex / peeking, no matter what.

From my limited knowledge in real incestual couples, it's either something that happens slowly and they don't really know it's going on, or it's built up and explodes from one day day to the other. Both of these cases seems unfeasible considering that if something is building up slowly (say, between siblings) it starts before they're 18 y/o (I don't mean fucking, but that's where the story starts) and I really don't know if you can portray underaged characters in porn games even if they're not being sexualized. The best thing I've seen regarding that would be something like the younger sister in dreams of desire, how her and mc were always close growing up, but even then it's mostly up to your imagination.
And coming back to us being degenerates, it's almost impossible to have a gradual immersive story (where the characters don't know they're developing feelings for eachother, why would they think that if they're family) when we're looking for porn, and the easy way to do it is always the same and very fucking boring. "peek in the shower" "blackmail" "sleeping pills and groping" "mom is a horny slut".

The closest think to what I'm describing would be (from what I've played) dual family with the father route (didn't play the son route). And it's a very niche game, they have a big fanbase but also angry mobs at every turn that want porn. And even then there are some of those "cheats" to add porn into the story with the crazy rapist aunt and the abused and sexually craved niece, I could get behind the niece if the story is well done, but it didn't feel like that to me at least.

Well that's about it, I wanted to hear opinions on whether those games are wanted in the first place, if it's possible to make them and general thoughts.
I tried to do a better job with spacing, hope it's more legible and understandable than my last clusterfuck.

 

[Richard Perkins]

I say yes you can(sex before 18),consensual sex varies by state, and country. As long as your in a state that consensual sex is below 18 i say you can, as long as it doesn't do with rape. I'm open to any other suggestions.

 

[Gomly1980]

I've seen a couple with siblings that fall in love. Those I find believable, i've seen it happen.

For the most part though, no.

Most of them involve a young boy who manages to fuck his entire family, that's about as believable as the entirety of the planet of the one legged space pigeons descending on earth and taking massive golden shits in my back yard making me the richest golden shit farmer in the world.

You get the oh so overused spying on someone in the shower, usually followed by masturbating right infront of said shower and acting shocked when the person being spied on turns around.

Sleep rape.

Mother seeing a dick, deciding it's bigger than her husbands and needing to fuck it.

More rape.

lots of creepy behavior.

Incest isn't my thing. I play a few games that have it but it isn't a focus so they avoid the usually shit writing incest games fall into but I don't think there is a way to make them more believable.

I've seen Blooming Love and Dreaming of Dana where incest worked out but that's it.

The only way to give an incest game any chance at being believable you'd have to find one that didn't have a child MC because just fucking no.

Those MC's are either complete morons or wankers you wouldn't mind seeing die horribly and painfully .... or moronic wankers. I've yet to see an incest game with a young boy as an MC that I didn't immediately want to take to dick kick city.

 

[Deleted member 167032]

Our Fate I believe is a game you'd want to play then as I believe it to grow into Incest but out of pure love for each other.

 

[redknight00]

Simply put: good writing, the main problems you cited are not related to incest in particular, but would be bad in any case, people don't fall in love after seeing a dick or being raped in their sleep, creeper MCs are bad in any setting.

 

[W22N]

I also feel like there's a weird obsession with harems, I get it, it's cool the first couple times, getting all those underdeveloped characters you call family to be your personal whores for you and you alone, but it gets boring repetitive and unrealistic (weird talking about the harem being unrealistic in an incest game, but you get my point).

I agree on siblings being the way to make it more realistic, not that it can't be extended to other family members, but it feels less weird for whatever reason. Maybe a way to give events more weight would be (once you're pretty much settled on the relationship) revisiting younger memories. For example, say that you start the game when your sister comes back from college (no one died in any kind of accident), once you have them having romantic feelings for each other without acting on it, you can re-live childhood memories, going to the lake you used to go as kids and remember that time you two couldn't find your parents so you decided to team-up and oh it's all so different now (obviously more to it than that, but you get the gist). Big brother remakes get annoying, you heavily dislike what the character does and represents but you have no way around it if you want to progress, and on top of that, it's all stupidly unbelievable, you can turn lesbians straight if you want to, everyone lusts for you...

 

[W22N]

Simply put: good writing, the main problems you cited are not related to incest in particular, but would be bad in any case, people don't fall in love after seeing a dick or being raped in their sleep, creeper MCs are bad in any setting.

Oh yeah, I completely agree, I'm a big incest fan, and I don't think incest is the problem, it's bad writing, it just so happens that most games are incest, so it's easier to find examples of bad incest games because the pool is bigger (although it also is for good ones).
Remember kids, the way to a woman's heart (obviously just to get her in your harem, otherwise fuck that hoe) is roofies and rape, oh and have a big dick, and get caught doing sexual stuff that would creep any sane person away.

Our Fate I believe is a game you'd want to play then as I believe it to grow into Incest but out of pure love for each other.

Yeah, I've been playing it and it's really good so far, I'm not big on exploring all routes so I don't think I'll be doing that either, but the "problem" I saw with it is from a theoric standpoint. Most people playing these games (degenerates as I jokingly said before) do it for the porn, so in theory if they can choose between a shower peeping scene and a good character backstory they'll go for the former. So it's hard to keep afloat a game that doesn't cater to the main audience. I personally don't think it's healthy to keep satisfying them like that but that's just my opinion.

It's perfectly fine that people want an all-you-can-fuck simulator from day 1, but I feel like at that point you're not making a game, you're making porn. It'd be cool to have stats from choices from games (although it'd be hard and a huge invasion of privacy), but what's the difference between someone making a game with 1000 branch choices and a bunch of abundant and rich characters if everyone will skip text and go for the harem route? At that point, isn't it better to just make a comic with the harem route? It'd probably be easier.

 

[baneini]

I suppose wicked choices had a more believable incest story with more unique writing.
The problem is the magic of "every character is 18+" which limits the possibilities of the stories, resulting in few frequently used templates.
I don't think you can get much realism if you want any sort of consensual story since theres the biological reasons people aren't attracted to their relatives. You could make a more realistic story about a father or big brother coercing a girl into sexual relationship but thats harder to monetize. One good story template would be "girl loses parents, adoptive uncle/aunt are abusive" but that again requires the girl being young enough to be in a situation where other people have power over her.

 

[W22N]

I suppose wicked choices had a more believable incest story with more unique writing.
The problem is the magic of "every character is 18+" which limits the possibilities of the stories, resulting in few frequently used templates.
I don't think you can get much realism if you want any sort of consensual story since theres the biological reasons people aren't attracted to their relatives. You could make a more realistic story about a father or big brother coercing a girl into sexual relationship but thats harder to monetize. One good story template would be "girl loses parents, adoptive uncle/aunt are abusive" but that again requires the girl being young enough to be in a situation where other people have power over her.

It's harsh to put in perspective that an abusive relationship is more believable than a consensual one. However there are a bunch of cases of relatives developing feelings for each other, but of course, the happy ending incest stories usually are "we had fun but now I'm happily married with 12 kids" or the ones that didn't happen.

There's also a case of "plagio di plagio di plagio". I don't really understand why every father has to be fucking dead, divorced or be away all the fucking time. Why can't he be happily married, or if you want a mom route, make her feel neglected, it'd be much more believable than being 20 years without looking for a new partner only to have the hots for her son. The cases of repetitive stories are either a severe lack of creativity or they just saw something popular and they want to make something to cater to that exact audience so they do basically the same.

 

[baneini]

plagio di plagio di plagio

1 man dev teams.
Good writing comes from spending a lot of time writing, thinking about writing, having an educational background for it, etc. That time is away from all the other skills you need for making a game so you practically need a pro writer + game designer to get a story worth anything. Sure theres some geniuses who can do it all but most quality games have a team behind it.

 

[xןʞ]

I don't have any interest in playing games about methhead dads grooming and raping their 10 year old daughters, sorry.

(so...I guess DMD really is the most realistic incest game hiyooooo)

 

[redknight00]

There's only so much believable you need to put in any game, ultimately, these are not real stories with real people, one can make a good compelling story. Heck you don't even need 20 updates of build-up to make it believable, for example, take siblings with a genuine good chemistry, have them play around and escalate things, the key aspects would be establishing the characters and the relationship. Or a trauma, it can bring people together and in the case of adults it's easy to accept things going sexual. Or in a parent going for his daughter/son because they remind of their mother/father.

Of course that wouldn't work if the extent of a dev's writing is retard innocent younger sister or mother who doesn't know how dicks work.

 

[GuyFreely]

I agree with the sentiment that bad writing causes these issues regardless of the specific scenario. However, I think incest in particular is a tough one because of the lack of reference. I imagine most writers of erotic incest games didn't actually fuck their sisters or mothers, I could be wrong. Also, it's rarely depicted in a realistic way in media, so again it's hard to draw on existing works for inspiration (I'm sure they do exist). Japan loves erotic incest stories, but it's usually total nonsense like OP is complaining about. I think it is these stories that get mimicked often and that's sort of the "norm" in incest fiction.

I know that if I was going to write an incest plot (and I'm not super interested in doing so), I'd have little point of reference. I didn't have any sisters and was never attracted to my mother. Also I don't know anyone personally who ever dealt with this sort of thing (that I'm aware of) so it would be guessing mostly. To be honest, if it were me, I'd probably go the step-family route because it let's you bypass the genetic reasons not to fuck your own family. It's still fairly taboo, but less so than blood relations. It would be easier to conceptualize that an attractive woman is thrust into your life and you get to be close to her by circumstance.

Spoiler: More Rambling

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[whiskeyrose]

The problem lies in with the medium of erotic games in general.

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of which is: "1. Porn is King: Any content or mechanism that isn’t fueling someone’s fantasies needs to be resolved quickly and not take up screen space, text, or player time."

If you want a more believable incest story, one that doesn't involve superpowers or mind control, it's going to take a long time to build up that relationship. It's not going to be day 1: Handjob, Day 2: blowjob Day 3 : sex Day 4: anal. It's also going to be boring and slow. That's not to say it can't be done, plenty of VNs do it where there's 4 hours of reading before a scene, but when you download a game off F95 you're wanting to jump in right away.

So therefore often incest not involving superpowers/mind control is done 2 ways:
1. The relationship is irrational, your mother/aunt/daughter/sister is waiting for the smallest excuse to have sex with MC, or in the case of MILF City, the mother starts out wanting to fuck MC for seemingly no reason whatsoever.
2. It's a real incestural relationship, involving either full on rape, or grooming. Which is usually paired with the "Women who enjoy/aren't bothered by rape." trope which is horrible.

I suppose the only way to possibly do incest correctly is to start the game with the exploratory phase of the relationship already in process. That on game start MC has already started fucking around with his sister/mom and you're just pushing it along. Just my opinion I guess.

 

[GuyFreely]

@whiskeyrose I couldn't follow that link, maybe I would need an account? Anyway, I'm going to argue with point 1 right off the bat. I agree with not wasting the player's time (I have a whole thread on it), but I don't think porn is the absolute only item of interest in an erotic game. I think erotic/adult/porn games can take on many forms. Everything from a touching love story to a mindless fuckfest. I don't think there is only one way to make an erotic game. I think it's important to keep personal preferences separated from objective criticism and know which is which. Sorry if that sounds kind of douchey.

I do agree that the easiest way to avoid the slow burn is to make it all prologue type stuff. Say all the awkwardness and hesitation already happened and now it's go time. Some might say it's lazy, but again, if your goal is to get the player into the action quickly, you sometimes want to take shortcuts.

 

[215303j]

The problem isn't with the fetish as such, but with the writing.
Some suggestions (not exhaustive):

Our Fate
Dreaming of Dana
Intimate Relations (Ptolemy)
Tangled Up
Dual Family
A Wife and Mother
Daughter for Dessert

But one problem with a realistic story, is that:
- The eroticism needs to build up, especially incest
- There is always more to the story than just sex

 

[DarthSeduction]

First off, I want to say, that your point about peeking and doing the perverted stuff is more about the developers being too lazy to find a good way to create sexual tension without these mechanics. Now, there is definitely a group of people who like voyeurism enough that they don't complain about this, but I'm definitely over it. The trope of "The Creeper" and "The 'Gentleman'" as they exist in games thus far, have always kinda disgusted me. I noted how you say you haven't played the son's route on Dual Family, and it actually confronts this. See, I see Dual Family as Satire on the entire incest genre, and so while it allows, and even forces the son to do some of those peeping events, it also takes the time to have the son realize that if he continues on the path he's on, he's going to end up hurting the people he loves. And that is the way I've often felt about it. The fact of the matter is, peeping is the first step on the ladder to becoming a full on sexual predator, and so it always makes me feel dirty doing it. Games that let me not do so, and better yet reward that behaviour are much more preferable.

As to your point, well, I can definitively say it's possible since I'm in the middle of doing it. My artist has just finally finished our principle design, meaning environments and characters and whatnot are almost all ready. He's beginning the opening scene now. In that scene my main characters' father, enters into his son, Alexander's room, and begins to molest him, eventually shoving his dick in the still sleeping boys mouth... but he gets greedy and Alexander wakes up, begins to scream, and then the father shoves it in all the way, cutting off his airway and with it the scream. Then we flash to Alexis, the twin sister, and she gets up to pee and on her way to the bathroom notices Alexander's door was left open, so she goes to close it for him and hears that scream just before it's cut off by gagging noises. She looks inside to see her father on top of him. At first she freezes seeing the desperation and fighting though she is sort of galvanized to action, her eyes trail down to her father's crumpled pants on the floor, he's a police officer who just got home and went straight to the son's room, so still attached to his belt is his service pistol. She removes it from the holster, levels it on her father, and shoots 3 times.

From that night forward Alexander sees Alexis as his hero, his guardian angel. He is all set up to sleep on the couch after that, not feeling comfortable in his room, but every night he ends up sneaking upstairs and curling up on Alexis' floor. Eventually she offers to share the bed with him, sort of beginning this strange much too close, even for twins relationship. This part, and a few other things are glossed over in a montage that covers the course of 3 years. I never specifically state their age in the initial story, but they're supposed to be 15. It's the only way it makes sense. Because of the shared trauma of that night, one being molested by his father, the other having to commit patricide to save her brother, they become more introverted, only spend time with one another, and a lot of it, while hormones and pheromones ravage their pubescent bodies. When things pick up 3 years later it's on the cusp, things have built to a boiling point for both of them and it's only a matter of time.

From time to time I'll use flashbacks to talk about older cases of less obvious abuse from the father towards Alexander, and at other times I'll use them to do, "remember that time we kissed", type stuff so that there will be a little more build up to be seen. However, regardless, the facts stand in that it is possible to show an incest story with a truly plausible premise.

I'd also like to point out that you left one out, and this one is kinda important. You see, we only really develop the psychological block toward incest with people we grow up with. In fact, even an adopted family member or a close family friend can develop this inhibition, because it requires a lot of time spent together at a developmental age. However if one of the family members is removed from that equation, say by, mom having to give him up for mental health reasons, him being adopted and raised elsewhere and only coming back to contact the family when he's 18, like in Perverted Hotel, things could definitely happen. Similarly, in Sisterly Lust, the MC was taken from his sisters and mother at a young age when their parents divorced, as a result he has only fleeting memories of them and so when he comes back after his father's death, he's also not got the inhibition. Parental Love does this as well, separating the father from his daughters for 16 years, and what's more, also stating that he had an incestuous relationship with his sister already, so his inhibitions around incest don't even stop at the social regardless of the psychological barrier. Now, this makes it hard to develop characters in the meaningful way, but it works. Hell, I'd even throw DmD into this one, because the only way to play DmD and it make sense is if D is 13 or so. Meaning the 10 year separation in it would have made her 3 when they were split up.

You also discount actual psychological disorders. There's one mentioned in in the game Intimate Relations that relates to young girls developing feelings of romantic and physical attraction to their own fathers. There's also the condition hinted at in both Perverted Hotel (which I suspect is related to her mental issues that made her give him up), and Milfy City, in which the mother's are undeniably attracted to their sons for whatever reason. Now, you might find these explanations less interesting, or to be a crutch, but I actually find them refreshing. I'm so tired of the cliche coercive methodology that is usually used in M/S relationships where mom is a sexy woman who's somehow been deprogrammed from her sexuality and it's up to MC to reawaken it with his massive penis. Yeah, give me a good psychological disorder and a mom who actually has a motivation to be with her son any day.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Most of them involve a young boy who manages to fuck his entire family, that's about as believable as the entirety of the planet of the one legged space pigeons descending on earth and taking massive golden shits in my back yard making me the richest golden shit farmer in the world.

Eh, the probability of this approaches 1 when you consider the universe is infinite.

I get it, it's cool the first couple times, getting all those underdeveloped characters you call family to be your personal whores for you and you alone,

Underdeveloped characters is the fault of the writer not the genre, see Sisterly Lust.

1. Porn is King: Any content or mechanism that isn’t fueling someone’s fantasies needs to be resolved quickly and not take up screen space, text, or player time."

As @GuyFreely stated, this rule is bullshit. If what you're making is a Slave Trainer game, then yeah, you want to make it all about porn. But any game with an actual narrative can and should use porn in more specific ways. The Narrative and the Porn should work together in harmony, neither feeling forced or shoehorned in. That's the problem with most peeping sequences for me, they feel a bit forced. And honestly, any game where grind replaces narrative, like Man of the House, or worse, Absolute Power (which is a mind control game, how the fuck do you fuck that up), is immediately guilty of putting the cart before the horse with its porn, not earning almost any of the things it does to get porn through narrative, simply handing them to you as a reward for slogging through the grind.

 

[anne O'nymous]

If you want a more believable incest story, one that doesn't involve superpowers or mind control, it's going to take a long time to build up that relationship. It's not going to be day 1: Handjob, Day 2: blowjob Day 3 : sex Day 4: anal. It's also going to be boring and slow.

It's a matter of taste. Personally I prefer a well wrote slow paced game to a quick faping one. Like anyone here I enjoy the sex scenes, but the game need to be really exceptional to seem good to my eyes if it's all it have for it. At the opposite, I easily pardon poor/cheap CG to a game which have an interesting and credible story.
Regarding games, I'm more on the girl's side, more cerebral than physical. Give me a realistic incest game which ask me to make the feeling and/or tension grow up until the moment the characters don't care anymore about the taboo of the situation and I'll probably love it. Anyway I'll like it more than most of the actual incest games. Mostly, the only thing which qualify them as incest games is the fact that the characters are called "mom", "sister", "son", etc. There's nothing in the dialog lines which describe the situation as incestuous. And it isn't because of the Patreon ban, it was already the case before it.
Of course there's some exception, but they are really rare. For most of the incest games, changing "mom" to "landlady" change absolutely nothing to the story and don't make the dialog lines feel suddenly weird. This simply because the context isn't take in count. If a mother/sister resist to the call of incest, it mean that she's ready since a long time and just fear the reaction of her son/brother and/or fear to hurt him if she surrender to her feelings. That's not what we see in incest games. Either they show us a growing lust or, worse, a growing love. Yeah, it's a well know fact, mothers don't love their son... Bullshit ! They already loved them before their birth and never stopped to love them. It's the nature of the feeling which change, not it's intensity.
It can eventually works with sisters, but a sister suddenly falling in love for their brother is still bullshit. They start by finally accepting them as brother, then discover that their feeling is in fact more than that. Most of the time, they were lovely sisters at start. They became cold because they were fighting their feelings ; "it's better if he hate me, than if I destroy his future by sleeping with him". It can be a conscious or unconscious reaction, but their love for their brother is never a new thing, it's something which was buried during many years, and generally when it come back, it's in a violent explosion.

 

[whiskeyrose]

@whiskeyrose Anyway, I'm going to argue with point 1 right off the bat. I agree with not wasting the player's time (I have a whole thread on it), but I don't think porn is the absolute only item of interest in an erotic game.

As @GuyFreely stated, this rule is bullshit. If what you're making is a Slave Trainer game, then yeah, you want to make it all about porn. But any game with an actual narrative can and should use porn in more specific ways. The Narrative and the Porn should work together in harmony, neither feeling forced or shoehorned in.

I think this is dependent on the vibe of the game. Like I kind of alluded to, a lot of Japanese VNs can do the narrative well with the pretty massive lead-up to a serious relationship, let alone an incest relationship.

I guess I just disagree with the audience drive for these games most of the time. Sure games can have sexual games an amazing story, The Witcher series is a prime example of this. But the caliber of dev(s) that make games like whats posted here doesn't have that capacity. Especially when the theme seems to be to make a 0.1 version so you can make a patreon.

And you can have a good narrative with porn as the driving force. Inner Bimbo, Wife Trainer, Waifu Academy are examples of this. I'm just saying its uncommon.