Dear Devs, Visual Novels need proper English!
- Thread starter Ottoeight
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Fair question, and I think this gets to the heart of this issue: why, in any sense, do they need to make a visual novel in a language in which they do not have fluency? If they want to make a visual novel in English, then they should make sure that they can at least write in passable English, as well as having decent skills in 3D modeling and some minor knowledge of scripting in ren'py and a few other game design skills. That takes time and effort to work on, sure, but why do I want more terrible low-effort visual novels by people machine translating dialogue into English? Making and trying to sell said terrible game, then quitting after people inevitably just don't pay money for more garbage on a big ol' heap of garbage that's already here, just feels like a waste of everybody's time. I don't have sympathy for it at this point. Like the man says, shitter's full.
In brief: if you don't have any game development skills whatsoever, and can't even write a coherent paragraph in the language in which you want to make a video game, then don't make a fucking Patreon for your first attempt at making a video game.
(If the implication wasn't clear enough: such a person is perfectly free and encouraged to try making a game demo, for free, show it to people, get feedback on it, then take that feedback to improve their skills so they can eventually get to the point where they are good enough at making games to actually make a living on it. This isn't rocket science. Also, while my tone was sarcastic, I'm completely serious about the Purdue Owl. It's a great website with a lot of good tools to improve your English, even for people who already speak and write English well.)
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Most "proofreaders" have the same issue with language as a dev. My old game was proofreader 3 times and people still complained about grammar. All three times I paid for that too... I'm not even sure about the current quality, I hope the previous "proofreader" did a good job at it at least, as he was not the usual "I proofread for money" type of guy.Well, this is a heartfelt plea to every Author who is developing / going to develop a VISUAL NOVEL.
Guys, you need to understand that the text (dialogues and whatever) is AS important AS the pictures. It needs to be written in proper English.
You should understand that I/we need to enjoy reading it.
If English is not your native language, please ask for editors and proof-readers HERE in F95. I'm positively sure that a lot of native speakers Here in F95 are more than willing to help you for free.
I'd offer myself, but, as someone might have noticed, I'm not an English native speaker myself.
Plus you also need to be aware of scammers who scam devs with this "proofreading" or "writing" work with the use of google translate. There are a lot of them here.
So no, it's not that easy to find someone to help with the grammar. There are many incompetent people at grammar just like dev who offer help as well as plenty of scammers you need to be aware of. It's not something like going into discord and finding someone helpful right off the bat. It's harder than this. A lot harder.
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- Mar 13, 2021
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Grammar can't be a problem. Once upon a time there were grammar books and dictionaries. Nowadays, there are tons of useful tools out there (out there = Not Porn Content on Internet).
I'm not talking about grammar and proof-reading.
Honestly, I am able to read Henry James and Katherine Mansfield in English without any problems and without a dictionary, BUT there is no way I can write an enjoyable short story in English: it would be utter crap. I am not able to do it.
They definitely do, yeah. If the dev welcomes and supports it, fans will happily report typos and bugs as they play. Love of Magic benefitted massively from the many people who read through the game, tested it, reported bugs and typos, and just kept me going through the dark days.
It's about phrasing and how words are used/or which words are used, plus all the other grammar rules you have to abide by which grammarly or google translate so often misses to correct.
- Sep 4, 2020
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I've tried to help with proofreading from time to time. One of the struggles, though, was dealing with colloquialisms. It's easy enough to show a Dev that they're using the wrong "it's" in a sentence. But in one instance, the Dev and I hit the phrase "She'll be right", which apparently is Australian slang for "It'll be ok". The Dev was Australian, but the character in the VN was not, nor was Australia a part of the plot or setting in any way. I pointed out that to any North American reading this, there would be a huge amount of confusion about who "she" was. And right about what? And how did that fit into the sentence flow? I swear I thought it was a paste error where a bit of an entirely different conversation ended up in the wrong spot -- that's how utterly baffling that turn of phrase was to my ears the first time I read it.
So yeah, getting the "English right" is harder than just spelling and using the right tense.
- Jun 24, 2018
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1) Because you would like your game to reach as many people as possible, and English is the most known/spoken language in the entire world so English is your best shot.
2) Because F95 and others only accept games in English so it's English or Die.
To be honest, as someone who lives in a third world country, reading things like that pisses me off. The entire fucking world demands us to learn, write or understand English at some degree and when we have the chance to apply what we know or use the tools we have, we shouldn't, because apparently it's "not good enough".
Yeah genius but the OP is asking about people who will do the job for you along the entire game/update. Of course some player will report typos but if that solved everything then the OP wouldn't have the needs to make this post because the games he played would have been proofreaded by the time he played them.
Honestly, your English is already most of the way there. It's not like you need to be Wordsworth or Faulkner or whoever to write an indie porn game, but things like subject-verb agreement make a visual novel much more playable than people just tossing whatever onto the screen or doing machine translation the whole way.
And I'm not aware that I'm demanding that you learn English at all, because you don't need to sell a visual novel on Patreon at all. You are not under any obligation to make a visual novel. That's the most important bit. And the reason for it is that, if you don't have the skills to make a visual novel, then you're almost certainly doomed not to make money off of the first thing you try to make anyway. You're probably better suited to making money some other way right now. And, if you can't make money some other way than making a shitty visual novel, then you're almost certainly fucked money-wise anyway because Patreon is by no means a guaranteed income source even for exceptionally talented video game devs.
Also, if your skills aren't up to snuff, then work on them first. Nobody's telling you to be a lawyer without going to law school. Nobody's asking you to be an electrician if you don't know how circuits work. Well, if you can't write four lines of proper English, you don't have the skills to make a visual novel in English that sells well. But definitely feel free to make a visual novel for fun no matter what your skill level. That's always on the table. Practice is a great way to get better and eventually get your skills to the point where you might be able to make a successful visual novel in English!
This isn't gatekeeping. This isn't prejudice. This is just asking that you have the basic skills required to do a job before you start doing that job, and one of those for making an English language visual novel for sale on Patreon is English language fluency sufficient to write four lines of proper English. Otherwise, I'd again recommend just doing it as a hobby for now.
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- Aug 17, 2019
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Speaking from a proofreader perspective:
Growing up with an author, working at a small publisher as an editor during high school/early college years, and even minoring in English (and a little fine arts) has given me a bit of an advanced view/take on the language. Even if my formal education has made my writing a bit stiff, I would consider myself more than capable as a writer (opinion, of course. I've also been told my writing sucks, so it's a subjective thing.). Even someone looking for errors will miss several each round of proofreading, which is why multiple people do it multiple times in the novel/author space.
Speaking from my own view as a dev:
I'm able to type/write fairly quickly and catch typos as I go. After I finish the writing portion of development for each update, I proofread. Then I finish everything else up/clean up code and other minor issues. Then I proofread again before said update goes public for Patreons. Before it goes to the public for free, I usually proofread one more time - including the Patreon's who are kind enough to point what I missed out. Even then, there's always a few kind users who point out several more spelling and contextual errors laced throughout. That after proofreading 3-4 times.
/
As a non-native English speaker, you yourself should realize that English itself is an absolutely brutal language to learn. Kind of like taking an American and blindly dropping them into an Asian curriculum. It's not going to happen overnight, and in a lot of ways, practical application of whatever you're trying to learn is almost always the best way to grow with it. Like a new user to Daz. A short VN allows a dev to practically use the tools he learned via tutorials/practice. Asking a dev to write in their native language alienates a monster chunk of possible players/viewers, and thus those who could help said dev grow in his English skill. Especially in a space that's as international as adult gaming is. They choose English because, in and of itself, it is a 'universal language'.
If typos from a foreign dev break immersion for someone, then that's their own problem. But you can't tell someone not to do something they want to do. It's like telling a fish not to swim, a kid not to play, or an artist not to create. They're putting themselves out there, and if anything, trying to get better. That's more than a lot can say.
Growing up with an author, working at a small publisher as an editor during high school/early college years, and even minoring in English (and a little fine arts) has given me a bit of an advanced view/take on the language. Even if my formal education has made my writing a bit stiff, I would consider myself more than capable as a writer (opinion, of course. I've also been told my writing sucks, so it's a subjective thing.). Even someone looking for errors will miss several each round of proofreading, which is why multiple people do it multiple times in the novel/author space.
Speaking from my own view as a dev:
I'm able to type/write fairly quickly and catch typos as I go. After I finish the writing portion of development for each update, I proofread. Then I finish everything else up/clean up code and other minor issues. Then I proofread again before said update goes public for Patreons. Before it goes to the public for free, I usually proofread one more time - including the Patreon's who are kind enough to point what I missed out. Even then, there's always a few kind users who point out several more spelling and contextual errors laced throughout. That after proofreading 3-4 times.
/
As a non-native English speaker, you yourself should realize that English itself is an absolutely brutal language to learn. Kind of like taking an American and blindly dropping them into an Asian curriculum. It's not going to happen overnight, and in a lot of ways, practical application of whatever you're trying to learn is almost always the best way to grow with it. Like a new user to Daz. A short VN allows a dev to practically use the tools he learned via tutorials/practice. Asking a dev to write in their native language alienates a monster chunk of possible players/viewers, and thus those who could help said dev grow in his English skill. Especially in a space that's as international as adult gaming is. They choose English because, in and of itself, it is a 'universal language'.
If typos from a foreign dev break immersion for someone, then that's their own problem. But you can't tell someone not to do something they want to do. It's like telling a fish not to swim, a kid not to play, or an artist not to create. They're putting themselves out there, and if anything, trying to get better. That's more than a lot can say.
- Jun 24, 2018
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No one is under the obligation of doing a visual novel, people do it because they want to do it, not because they're obliged. So what? If I wan't to make a visual novel, I can't because my or other's English isn't good enough for you?
I could tell you the exact same thing about all the other skills. Almost no one here knows anything about writing because almost no one here had any experience with writing before. Almost no one here knows about DAZ because almost no one here had any experience with DAZ before. How the fuck is people supposed to get better if they don't even try? Are you expecting them to spend years and years practicing in the shadows simply because their skills aren't good enough for you?
You seem really interested in money, and yes some devs start doing this thinking they will get rich, so here I have a solution for you: Don't play those games. That's it, it is that simple, and if you think that my solution is just too stupid or obvious, think again, because what's your problem if a dev makes a game as shitty as you mention and never gets money for it? It isn't your problem. The dev is the one who's wasting his time making that game to get nothing in return, if you don't play that game, you don't waste your time or anything. Why devs shouldn't try it? They are the ones wasting their time and not doing something more productive.
Just to be even more clear, if someone wants to make money with a porn visual novel or selling ice in the middle of the Antarctica, it's their choice and their problem, not yours.
And yes you're gatekeeping and prejudicing. You're telling a lot of people to not even bother trying because they are not good enough for you.
K. I mean, that's a weird hill to die on, but sure. Enjoy selling sand in the desert.
- Sep 4, 2020
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Money-making has been brought up a couple of times, and that's intriguing. In capitalism, "profit" is really a market signal that identifies and rewards efficiency. On the one hand, creating a game takes time and effort, but the better the game, the more likely you'll realize some sort of revenue stream. Having said that, profit comes when the efficiency exists such that the cost of creating the game is less than the price you can demand on the market for it. I mean, this is obvious, right? I'd say the quality of the written prose is definitely a point in favor of realizing actual revenue -- or maybe more accurately, being bombarded with criticisms regarding poor English (or poor writing in general) is going to depress revenue. So write better, right? Well sure, but at what cost? If you are able to write well already, great. If your writing skills are middling or poor, you can get free proof-reading. But then remember you get what you pay for. Professional proofreading is probably better, but costlier. Improving your own skills is probably the costliest (formal training, time spent in immersing in a new language, and so on). Your game will have to be a smashing success to justify that cost on a profit basis.
Another way to juice the efficiency is by dual-purposing whatever it is you're paying for. Is it worth it to learn English in order to write better naughty games? Probably not. But will the effort to become fluent in conversational English pay dividends in other aspects of your life? Only you know the answer to that.
For me, the same question came up with deciding on a development platform. Do I go with Ren'Py or Twine? As it turns out, I have excellent web development skills from my professional side, so taking on Twine and making it do what I want is an investment worth making. Anything I learn from that can apply to my work as well, so I already realize value without having sold a single game. Learning Python might be fun, but there's no other payoff for me besides the gaming thing. The cost-benefit analysis comes squarely down on the Twine side, because the benefits are broader, so it is easier (more "efficient") to realize value from that cost.
Maybe it's just easier to drop the money-making thing. Do this because you enjoy it. Being happy is the best profit of all.
Another way to juice the efficiency is by dual-purposing whatever it is you're paying for. Is it worth it to learn English in order to write better naughty games? Probably not. But will the effort to become fluent in conversational English pay dividends in other aspects of your life? Only you know the answer to that.
For me, the same question came up with deciding on a development platform. Do I go with Ren'Py or Twine? As it turns out, I have excellent web development skills from my professional side, so taking on Twine and making it do what I want is an investment worth making. Anything I learn from that can apply to my work as well, so I already realize value without having sold a single game. Learning Python might be fun, but there's no other payoff for me besides the gaming thing. The cost-benefit analysis comes squarely down on the Twine side, because the benefits are broader, so it is easier (more "efficient") to realize value from that cost.
Maybe it's just easier to drop the money-making thing. Do this because you enjoy it. Being happy is the best profit of all.
I think in regard to ESL authors there is a lot to be gained from the low hanging fruit of even just a cursory proof read by a native speaker. There are a lot of them out there that have decent writing skills but just wont ever be able to get their head around tenses. I'm not to experienced with grammarly and how well it helps for these issues but maybe that is the answer for them, but the issue remains that they wont be able to tell if the tense is right or wrong.
In general these chaps know they've got this issue and welcome help with it, but don't know where to ask for help, let alone think that someone would just help out with their dinky little thing for free.
In general these chaps know they've got this issue and welcome help with it, but don't know where to ask for help, let alone think that someone would just help out with their dinky little thing for free.
- Jun 19, 2019
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....
"Four bell and all t'is well" sayeth the man who wast walking to and fro' across thine battlements, stars tarried overhead,
gleaming, shining, refracting moonlight, upon this night, hast thee knoweth t'was a cold night?
Tiredness overcame him not, forsooth hath he drinketh of thine concoction knoweth by man to hath be blessed of thy bull that be red.
Musical scores and notes echoed upwards, carried from the local tavern. Wherefore doth thy most popular bard in such kingdom doth play, the lilting tones of 'In thy Vestibule' by Fifty Shillings assaileth his ears. Nay! No tiredness, as hath his feet shalt walketh once more across thine battlements...
Technically 'proper' English. Just the middle time period. Lest you want me to go Old English? One should define what is meant by 'proper'.
penisilly i don't c wot all the fuzz is about? engrish gamez ave bean on dis site four years, now some grandma nancy wants all engrish gamez trainzlated to English.
Yes you should! I am getting fed up with freeloading games, that are full of grammar mistakes and bugs.
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- Feb 8, 2020
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I think a lot of people are misunderstanding OP, he's saying to get help with a translation and by all accounts this is valid since a large portion of their market is English. Making this request for say a dlsite game is more of an unreasonable request since most of their customers don't speak English at all, even though the translated games keep up with jp purchase numbers on occasion.
If you make upwards of 300 USD a month on Patreon you can pay someone to translate it's not expensive, this isn't a PC98 ordeal where NEC never released the hardware outside of their country, this is marketed internationally and I doubt anyone savvy enough to goad patrons into donating isn't aware of this.
If you make upwards of 300 USD a month on Patreon you can pay someone to translate it's not expensive, this isn't a PC98 ordeal where NEC never released the hardware outside of their country, this is marketed internationally and I doubt anyone savvy enough to goad patrons into donating isn't aware of this.
- Jun 24, 2018
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My "problem" with the OP is that he implies that it's as simple as asking/DM someone here and that someone will translate/proofread the game for free without any problem, when the reality is that there are only a few people here willing to translate/proofread a game for free but only if they like said game and not before finishing translating/proofreading all the game he already agreed to translate/proofread before.
Besides that, some devs here mentioned that even after paying for proofreading, some people still find and complain about grammar/typos. Devs could invest money on it, but they also could invest money on a better PC to make better/faster render, or they could invest in hire someone to help him, or they could invest in nothing because most devs do this because it's fun and not because the want to go full bussines and make investments as if they were a company.