Ren'Py Desert Stalker [v0.16c] [Zetan]

[Kellermann]

You and I must have very different definitions of Mary Sue, considering that Zaton has had upwards of 20 years worth of training and experience by the time the main plot has started (it may be closer to 30 considering that he's close to finishing his training in the flashbacks). Is he OP? Yes. Is his OPness not deserved? Absolutely not.

Agreed, and not only that, but this story is also putting in the proper groundwork so Shani cannot be classified a mary sue either. She is being closely mentored and trained ( ) and is learning the craft by doing (while an experienced Stalker was by her side, before the trials). Now she is on her own becoming a Stalker by way of her own shrewd decisions and dialogue choices you as the player gave to her earlier in game. This is far cry from just instantly being great at everything without training or experience in the field. MC didn't become one of the top Stalkers overnight as you stated. Same will be for Shani. It takes time to build up the mastery and DS is clearly showing Shani incremental skill growth. The first big step is returning alive to the villa.

 

[ksatnod]

The Mary Sueness of the protagonist is dreadfully embarrassing

Maybe when compared to fine literature, but it seems par for the course when compared to other porn games about fulfilling power fantasies.

and completely undermines any seriousness the game might otherwise have had.

Probably true, but I can't notice it when my dick is hard.

 

[JohnF95zone]

You and I must have very different definitions of Mary Sue, considering that Zaton has had upwards of 20 years worth of training and experience by the time the main plot has started (it may be closer to 30 considering that he's close to finishing his training in the flashbacks). Is he OP? Yes. Is his OPness not deserved? Absolutely not.

True to that. I personally don't know what is Mary Sue but roughly I think it means an unrealistically over-powered protagonist. We, the players did not witnessed the character development of Zaton because pretty much we start in the middle and the game just established that the MC is a very competent Desert Stalker.

However, we the players will also realized ( by playing the game ) that the MC has boundaries that even he cannot cross yet, for example how he deals with Queen Merneith ( Zetan ) and Fangs ( the Mutants ). Also, if the player did not unlock the Raiders faction, then the MC is not able to take control of the highway settlement without the support of the Raiders i.e. he is not able to oust the General on his own. In short, there are specific examples in this game that counters the opinion that MC is a Mary Sue.

Perhaps, there are specific instances where the MC appears to be invincible but none that I can remember. I don't even remember that there were so many battles or fights in this game. Well, nothing that feels supernatural or unfitting for fiction at least. But yeah, the story is not leaning towards realism much, but at least it tries to make most of it, believable.

In the end, it is not simple or easy to get the balance right. If the game with a weak MC and the game is supposed to be about his/her character growth, some people will not like it and immediately become the discussion about cuck, beta and what not. On the other hand, if the game features a Mary Sue MC, then some other people will not like it because the MC just basically conquers everything without facing any hurdles. It becomes an online shopping experience, add items to cart, checkout, and wait for delivery.

 

[Kellermann]

True to that. I personally don't know what is Mary Sue but roughly I think it means an unrealistically over-powered protagonist. We, the players did not witnessed the character development of Zaton because pretty much we start in the middle and the game just established that the MC is a very competent Desert Stalker.

However, we the players will also realized ( by playing the game ) that the MC has boundaries that even he cannot cross yet, for example how he deals with Queen Merneith ( Zetan ) and Fangs ( the Mutants ). Also, if the player did not unlock the Raiders faction, then the MC is not able to take control of the highway settlement without the support of the Raiders i.e. he is not able to oust the General on his own. In short, there are specific examples in this game that counters the opinion that MC is a Mary Sue.

Perhaps, there are specific instances where the MC appears to be invincible but none that I can remember. I don't even remember that there were so many battles or fights in this game. Well, nothing that feels supernatural or unfitting for fiction at least. But yeah, the story is not leaning towards realism much, but at least it tries to make most of it, believable.

In the end, it is not simple or easy to get the balance right. If the game with a weak MC and the game is supposed to be about his/her character growth, some people will not like it and immediately become the discussion about cuck, beta and what not. On the other hand, if the game features a Mary Sue MC, then some other people will not like it because the MC just basically conquers everything without facing any hurdles. It becomes an online shopping experience, add items to cart, checkout, and wait for delivery.

True, although I think what Op really meant to say instead of Mary Sue was male power fantasy. that I can agree with but I don't have any problem with it because it is a nice change from what you normally see on any new movie or tv show. Almost all are epic bean flicking female power fantasy. And that is fine too, some of them are quite fun. Here with AVNs though is one of last bastions of old fashioned machismo, as they call it.

This story wouldn't make much sense if the MC were a young, weak-willed, incompetent character. That attitude doesn't pass muster in the apoc desert unless you are a cuck merchant (sorry Omar). An MC like that would likely never get a chance to grow into a badass Stalker because a weakling would be quickly weeded out.

 

[PyoT]

I'm not endlessly going to belabor the point, but it's not about the guy being reasonably competent. It's about moments like when the sister's husband first appears and he's like "hey, Stalker, whose literal job definition is working for the Queen, how is it working for the Queen?" and the MC goes "ME NO WORK FOR NOBODY. HOW DARE YOU SAY SO YOU PUNY WORM" and that sort of moments. It's just embarassing.

I'd also point that at basically every interaction he can be belittling and dismissive and always comes out on top. Guards, priests, whatever. It never backfires, nobody ever has an issue with it. Contrary to what is suggested here even with the Queen you can play "eh whatever little girl, I'm Chad McAwesomeguy" (though there's at least some slightly respectful choices ... although that never holds though an entire scene of dialogue ^^).

The issue aside from this coming across like some insecure teenager is that choices never feel like you really need to worry about anything. The setting kinda plays at being sorta harsh, sorta survival-ish, but ... it's just not for this guy.

And I disagree that it's got much to do with any of the power fantasies on here. Plenty of games on here aren't this bad about it. Some are I'm sure but they usually are low quality rubbish anyway so easy to ignore ^^

 

[Kellermann]

I'm not endlessly going to belabor the point, but it's not about the guy being reasonably competent. It's about moments like when the sister's husband first appears and he's like "hey, Stalker, whose literal job definition is working for the Queen, how is it working for the Queen?" and the MC goes "ME NO WORK FOR NOBODY. HOW DARE YOU SAY SO YOU PUNY WORM" and that sort of moments. It's just embarassing.

I'd also point that at basically every interaction he can be belittling and dismissive and always comes out on top. Guards, priests, whatever. It never backfires, nobody ever has an issue with it. Contrary to what is suggested here even with the Queen you can play "eh whatever little girl, I'm Chad McAwesomeguy" (though there's at least some slightly respectful choices ... although that never holds though an entire scene of dialogue ^^).

The issue aside from this coming across like some insecure teenager is that choices never feel like you really need to worry about anything. The setting kinda plays at being sorta harsh, sorta survival-ish, but ... it's just not for this guy.

And I disagree that it's got much to do with any of the power fantasies on here. Plenty of games on here aren't this bad about it. Some are I'm sure but they usually are low quality rubbish anyway so easy to ignore ^^

Instead of making MC less of a badass, the better idea is to make another character stronger to compete.

That is one of the reasons I keep hoping for another current (not his former mentor) human male Desert Stalker who can be a strong rival to MC. Someone just as competent as MC, but has an old grudge with him and therefore hates him. Due to the fact that both still work for the queen, they can't directly figth one another...yet. I use the example of 006 and 007 (Goldeneye).
Perhaps the rival works to undermine MC whenever possible. Eventually they will have to fight for supremcy. My previous idea was that whichever way the MC choses, the rival will go the other way. Ex. If MC is pro-Queen, then rival will end up being anti-queen. Same with the raiders, mutants, etc.
Anyway, just some fan-fiction. Story is great as is.

 

[Yngling]

I'd also point that at basically every interaction he can be belittling and dismissive and always comes out on top. Guards, priests, whatever. It never backfires, nobody ever has an issue with it.

I guess this is a cultural issue.

Perhaps you have had not so much exposure to real "alpha's" (as much as I dislike that term).

I suggest to have a look at this video:

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In egalitarian cultures, like Scandinavian ones, and to a point Anglo-Saxon ones as well, this kind of behaviour would not be much appreciated.

In real macho cultures, like Latin-American ones, this behaviour could even be considered cool and understated.

But in hierarchical cultures, like Russia, this is spot on.

Edit: yes, I know the guy in the video isn't exactly the most popular guy in the world right now. But don't let that cloud your judgement on the video.

 

[Paz]

I'd also point that at basically every interaction he can be belittling and dismissive and always comes out on top. Guards, priests, whatever. It never backfires, nobody ever has an issue with it. Contrary to what is suggested here even with the Queen you can play "eh whatever little girl, I'm Chad McAwesomeguy" (though there's at least some slightly respectful choices ... although that never holds though an entire scene of dialogue ^^).

That is sometimes a conscious choice, for various reasons. Be it the whole ethos of the setting, or the scene we want to show, or simply time/effort constraints.
We also have quite likely dropped the ball in certain low-hanging fruit opportunities. Tunnel vision is a bitch.

The issue aside from this coming across like some insecure teenager is that choices never feel like you really need to worry about anything. The setting kinda plays at being sorta harsh, sorta survival-ish, but ... it's just not for this guy.

Tangential to the previous point, what would you consider an actual risk?
The MC dying? Obviously the game can't continue after that, so it's at best a quick "game over, choose again". Which, by the way, exists in some capacity and existed in other cases but iirc has been removed for now because it didn't really work nicely (the Queen could have you executed), but it might make a comeback.
The MC losing girls to someone else because of his attitude? Very, very unlikely to happen. Both because of the whole premise and the fact that it is quite an overhead to account for such possibilities.
The MC getting beaten and brushing it off a bit later?

I am genuinely curious because I think you make a potentially fair point.

 

[PyoT]

That is sometimes a conscious choice, for various reasons.

Obviously the society is portrayed as very much hierarchical (and valuing certain things etc) but I wasn't going to write an essay on every single interaction of the game. Still, the overall impression remains ^^;

Tangential to the previous point, what would you consider an actual risk?

This issue ultimately applies to very-nearly all classic hero adventures (or just stories) ever. The reader knows they are going to defeat the big bad evil in the end. Or solve the mystery. Or get the love interest. Or all those things. Obviously getting captured or incapacitated or whatever is always going to be a temporary inconvenience of some shape or form.

But that's also bluntly put the difference between good writing and poor writing. In a well-written story the reader isn't going to sit there and think, eh, all the struggle to get to the goal is whatever, there's no jeopardy after all, I know how this is going to end ...

For me a lot of it is just the presentation; it's simply not presented as difficult or challenging or anything ... assuming for a moment that I had some Magical Editorial Powers by which to change the game just casually to my subjective preferences, I don't think I'd even substantially change much of the actual content. Tone some of the most exaggerated instance down a bit and already there'd be a notable improvement (even if the main beats of the scene are by and large the same).

And, sure, going a little bit further it's still relatively simple things - like going into a fight surprised by a development and forced to react to something unexpected, out of a disadvantage, whatever. Completely different atmosphere already. But, naw, he always sees through everything immediately ...

I'd also agree with somebody above mentioning other characters. I'm definitely not saying there needs to be a rival or even anybody excessively interfering with the story, but just, whatever, "balancing" the guy against other people and what they are up and whatever, what somebody then might be talking about in the market or anything would also contribute to making the protagonist seem less extreme in the context of the setting.

And, sure, if we talk actual consequences; get injured, struggle to convince people, make people hate him if he's being too much of an idiot and force him to fix that, other temporary set-backs; plans not working out and needing an alternative, all options as appropriate. Heck, even screwing up so other people get screwed over - if he actually cares - is an option.

I don't think it needs to be super complex and fundamentally change the gameplay/story/characters. As far as I understand the goal here is still to be a porn game so to some extend porn game logic must apply, and I'd agree that any choices that just lock you effectively out of porn content (or lead to direct Game Overs) is more or less a waste of effort. But it's NOT about the character being fundamentally competent and reaching his goals. It's about how it's presented; there are ways to "disguise" what's going on, that "porn logic", better.

 

[Cynicaladm]

And, sure, if we talk actual consequences; get injured, struggle to convince people, make people hate him if he's being too much of an idiot and force him to fix that, other temporary set-backs; plans not working out and needing an alternative, all options as appropriate. Heck, even screwing up so other people get screwed over - if he actually cares - is an option.

in a way, part 1 of the hive mission is pretty much a failure... we could argue that it might be seen as Fang's failure and not the MC's, but MC's presence de facto does nothing to improve matters. of course, the emotional payload is minimal because MC isn't really personally invested in the destiny of specific mutant redshirts... so I get your point.
That said, there are going to be a few instances that will challenge the mc in a much more direct way... but of course we can't quite elaborate further on that. will he get through those events? of course, this IS his story so one way or another he will be with us until the last chapter is written... but it won't always be plain sailing. as to what is considered sufficiently challenged to make the story interesting, that's going to be different for each reader and, to an extent also for us. fingers crossed, we can make it still worth reading through without stretching the suspension of disbelief too much (I myself find the continued existence of pantyhose more challenging, in that regard ... but the sexy times do come with their own challenges and requirements.)

 

[Idontsniffpanties]

I'm not endlessly going to belabor the point, but it's not about the guy being reasonably competent. It's about moments like when the sister's husband first appears and he's like "hey, Stalker, whose literal job definition is working for the Queen, how is it working for the Queen?" and the MC goes "ME NO WORK FOR NOBODY. HOW DARE YOU SAY SO YOU PUNY WORM" and that sort of moments. It's just embarassing.

I'd also point that at basically every interaction he can be belittling and dismissive and always comes out on top. Guards, priests, whatever. It never backfires, nobody ever has an issue with it. Contrary to what is suggested here even with the Queen you can play "eh whatever little girl, I'm Chad McAwesomeguy" (though there's at least some slightly respectful choices ... although that never holds though an entire scene of dialogue ^^).

The issue aside from this coming across like some insecure teenager is that choices never feel like you really need to worry about anything. The setting kinda plays at being sorta harsh, sorta survival-ish, but ... it's just not for this guy.

And I disagree that it's got much to do with any of the power fantasies on here. Plenty of games on here aren't this bad about it. Some are I'm sure but they usually are low quality rubbish anyway so easy to ignore ^^

I don't know about you, but I had my dick bitten off and I was stabbed to death when I was an ass or tried to dominate the situation when I shouldn't.

 

[Cynicaladm]

I don't know about you, but I had my dick bitten off and I was stabbed to death when I was an ass or tried to dominate the situation when I shouldn't.

is that when you decided to come play AV games?

 

[DogBeersHadOne]

I don't know about you, but I had my dick bitten off and I was stabbed to death when I was an ass or tried to dominate the situation when I shouldn't.

RIP the homie

 

[Idontsniffpanties]

is that when you decided to come play AV games?

I got this little electro shocker that I put right on my nerve, and it almost feels like before the "accident" when I still had flesh down there :'(

 

[Mfka5]

I got this little electro shocker that I put right on my nerve, and it almost feels like before the "accident" when I still had flesh down there :'(

Ayo bruh, nah youre lying
Proof or it didnt happen

 

[Hildegardt]

Also, if the player did not unlock the Raiders faction, then the MC is not able to take control of the highway settlement without the support of the Raiders i.e. he is not able to oust the General on his own. In short, there are specific examples in this game that counters the opinion that MC is a Mary Sue.

I don't think this is a good example. The raiders would take the settlement either way and Zaton's role is supposed to be the diplomat, who prevents more bloodshet. But in the end it turns out your choices don't actually have any serious consequences for Zaton's quest or the fate of the raiders. It simply comes down to if you want to play the good guy or stroke it to the settlers suffering. There's nothing more to it, which was pretty disappointing to me honestly. The quest played out like an oldschool rpg at first, but in the end it shied away from disturbing the power fantasy even slightly.

On the one hand you can miss whole chunks of content depending on your choices, but on the other hand there are never really any bad consequences at least for Zaton and the characters close to him (unnamed side characters can be gored for fun, though). I don't think it would be a bad move to have players reload a save, if they fuck up somewhere. It would only add to the danger purported by the setting.
For example, the zone would have been pretty disappointing, if it wasn't for the one bad outcome, where Shani could get trapped. I'm not even sure what in the zone required extensive stalker training and a truckload of equipment (that weirdly enough vanished somewhere before Shani even entered the zone).

 

[ksatnod]

She had to avoid the looters/stalkers that arrowed the one dude in the head

There was a storm/blowout or what ever its called in the stalker series that would've gotten her if Ivy's friend was more suspicious of others.

And finally just because things are quiet most of the time, doesn't mean the area is safe.

 

[Kellermann]

I don't think it would be a bad move to have players reload a save, if they fuck up somewhere. It would only add to the danger purported by the setting.

I'd rather not if you are talking about constant game overs. Unless it is video game with mechanics and gameplay that support something like that (ex.Metal Gear Solid games or horror genre), then it just becomes annoying very quickly. I don't think visual novels lend themselves well to game overs. Reloading a save, yes I do that often (usually to grab a new lewd scene), but a game over screen mid-story? I haven't found one yet on F95 with constant game overs that doesn't royally piss me off. Fortunately here I think the zone is the only time we have approached something like a hard cut game over. To its credit the "bad end" there was easy to spot coming and avoid.

Rather than game overs, there could different outcomes (good outcome, ok outcome, undesirable but not deadly outcome). I quite liked the dilemma we were faced with during hive mission. But the problem with the previously mentioned different outcomes is it requires a lot more writing and rendering. The more outcomes, the more branching required. Great for players but a chore for developers and I would be sad to see DS become another once-per-year update game. 3 to 4 months is ideal, especially for kind of quality entertainment we receive in DS.


_somewhat unrelated section _
Recently a number people have called for changes to certain aspects of story or characters (I also asked from time to time, oops), or they have wondered why this game can't have a weaker "more realistic" MC, but it never seems to turn out well when a developer caves to the wants of the general public and changes their original vision. imo, this game has a high level of support and praise precisely because it has gone its own way and takes a different tack than most other games on F95.

 

[ksatnod]

I haven't found one yet on F95 with constant game overs that doesn't royally piss me off.

Only times I ever had game overs that didn't detract, were VNs that put in the effort to make the "game over" a scene unto it self, which I think has similar problems to decision trees.

 

[Filipis]

I don't think this is a good example. The raiders would take the settlement either way and Zaton's role is supposed to be the diplomat, who prevents more bloodshet. But in the end it turns out your choices don't actually have any serious consequences for Zaton's quest or the fate of the raiders. It simply comes down to if you want to play the good guy or stroke it to the settlers suffering. There's nothing more to it, which was pretty disappointing to me honestly. The quest played out like an oldschool rpg at first, but in the end it shied away from disturbing the power fantasy even slightly.

On the one hand you can miss whole chunks of content depending on your choices, but on the other hand there are never really any bad consequences at least for Zaton and the characters close to him (unnamed side characters can be gored for fun, though). I don't think it would be a bad move to have players reload a save, if they fuck up somewhere. It would only add to the danger purported by the setting.
For example, the zone would have been pretty disappointing, if it wasn't for the one bad outcome, where Shani could get trapped. I'm not even sure what in the zone required extensive stalker training and a truckload of equipment (that weirdly enough vanished somewhere before Shani even entered the zone).

Also... the Zone part is still on-going? It's not over, so Shani can still get in a serious situation. But I would like to see more... permanent consequences from some choices presented to the MC.