VN Ren'Py Divimera [R12] [Redikal]

[Redikal]

I think there are some misconceptions in what you say and I will try to explain why and what is the philosophy behind this specific game which is a bit peculiar too.
First of all, I personally don't like how Ren'py behaves by default and if you mostly play Ren'py game, this is what you are used to so you probably don't think much of it but the default of Ren'py is absolutely not the standard in general.
For example, the way you can resize the Ren'py window like a chewing gum/web browser is an exception in video games, it is the default behavior of a program if you don't do anything to it, it's not actually something that is 'designed' and it's not good for multiple reasons that can differ depending on games, but in general it looks bad and cheap because you can never end up with a properly shaped window, it will always have some black bars in some areas because it's not humanly possible to pixel perfect by hand a window. The second problem is that it makes it difficult to return to the native resolution of the game (the resolution where the pixels are at 1:1 scale without deformation), there are tricks to do it in default Ren'py but not everyone is aware of it.
It looks unprofessional in my opinion and this game is trying to reach beyond Ren'py gamers, like most of the screenshots shared on a Ren'py game will have those weird distorted windows/maximized windows like it's some kind of web browser application (again this is the default behavior of a program in general but for a game you want to avoid that imo).
With the resolution selection, I'm mostly inspired by Japanese VN and others game and their way of doing things with fixed windows, I do plan to expand on it by adding a lot more resolutions to cover all the needs in the future so you will have the same level of customization to have it at the size you want while avoiding ending up with those weird windows that base Ren'py tend to have.
This also works much better with the retro feel of the game, this is a design decision for this specific game because the not modern feel goes with the retro fantasy, but for example on a modern side project, I'll keep the default chewing gum feel of Ren'py because it's less of a game, and more of a short trashy game than anything, addressed to Ren'py classic vn crowd.

For your second point, this is already corrected in R9.5 if I understand right, the windows recenter from the middle now. This is something that I wanted to improve from some versions now and did with the last SDK update.

About skip, wrong, it's not auto-forward, this is Skip as you know it just works through a toggle button (supported by Ren'py, not something I created really), which makes much more sense for a sort of point-and-click sandbox game, because you can just toggle it, and playthrough the content without constantly pushing the ctrl button. I don't think there is an issue with it, it works well in this situation.

 

[mrttao]

I will take these one by one. first, the skip/forwards

About skip, wrong, it's not auto-forward, this is Skip as you know it just works through a toggle button (supported by Ren'py, not something I created really), which makes much more sense for a sort of point-and-click sandbox game, because you can just toggle it, and playthrough the content without constantly pushing the ctrl button. I don't think there is an issue with it, it works well in this situation.

It is not the skip as I know it
it is a skip that has been heavily modified to act exactly like auto-forward apparently, and renamed from skip to forward.
why the rename?.

I initially thought you modded skip but then I realized "hang on, it works exactly like auto-forwards." and decided you must have just removed skip and rebound the ctrl key from skip to auto.
As that would make way more sense than modding skip to work like auto.

No it does not "work well". not compared to the pre-gutting version that comes by default with reenpy.

Your modifications to skip removes the built in choices and options that skip comes with.
Look at any other renpy game and skip has the configuration choices of
here is pic from another renpy game

> unseen text
> after choices
> transitions

By default skip only skips seen text and you can optionally add the option to also skip those 3 other things.

Instead of just setting the default to "skip unseen text" (which I have seen several games do. I then uncheck the box because I disagree with this default setting choice). you went ahead and both set the default and also deleted the setting options.
In divemera you removed those built in options and instead made it ALWAYS skip unseen text without any user control over this.

Which is really bad. as I only wanted to skip already seen text and see the new and different text.
This "skip seen only" is a flagship feature of renpy. a massive advantage it has on all other engines.
You often see a renpy clone made in unity and I have only seen 1 single such case actually manage to replicate renpy's elegant skip functionality.

You then also modded it to add forwards speed setting
just like auto-forward.
here is pic from another renpy game


skip has no speed setting since it is always going at max speed.
Because the auto-forwards function exists in renpy which lets text automatically advance at (hopefully) reasonable speed allowing you to read without making any clicks.
Very comfortable and also useful as accessibility feature. (I got a shoulder injury and am using it to reduce strain)

As for the key being sticky... you should have made this optional. It meshes extremely poorly with the hardcoded "skip everything" you made.
By default renpy lets you get a sticky skip via pressing the skip command in the GUI. or let you get a non sticky version via ctrl keyboard key.
Adding a feature to get an optional sticky ctrl would be nice. hardcoding it isn't

You absolutely gutted the functionality of skip/auto-forward and hard coded a variety of options and choices.
as if the way you personally view things is the only valid way.
I simply cannot fathom why you would do this thing.
there is literally no possible explanation on why removing all those options makes the game better.

 

[mrttao]

I think there are some misconceptions in what you say and I will try to explain why and what is the philosophy behind this specific game which is a bit peculiar too.
First of all, I personally don't like how Ren'py behaves by default and if you mostly play Ren'py game, this is what you are used to so you probably don't think much of it but the default of Ren'py is absolutely not the standard in general.
For example, the way you can resize the Ren'py window like a chewing gum/web browser is an exception in video games, it is the default behavior of a program if you don't do anything to it, it's not actually something that is 'designed' and it's not good for multiple reasons that can differ depending on games, but in general it looks bad and cheap because you can never end up with a properly shaped window, it will always have some black bars in some areas because it's not humanly possible to pixel perfect by hand a window. The second problem is that it makes it difficult to return to the native resolution of the game (the resolution where the pixels are at 1:1 scale without deformation), there are tricks to do it in default Ren'py but not everyone is aware of it.
It looks unprofessional in my opinion and this game is trying to reach beyond Ren'py gamers, like most of the screenshots shared on a Ren'py game will have those weird distorted windows/maximized windows like it's some kind of web browser application (again this is the default behavior of a program in general but for a game you want to avoid that imo).
With the resolution selection, I'm mostly inspired by Japanese VN and others game and their way of doing things with fixed windows, I do plan to expand on it by adding a lot more resolutions to cover all the needs in the future so you will have the same level of customization to have it at the size you want while avoiding ending up with those weird windows that base Ren'py tend to have.
This also works much better with the retro feel of the game, this is a design decision for this specific game because the not modern feel goes with the retro fantasy, but for example on a modern side project, I'll keep the default chewing gum feel of Ren'py because it's less of a game, and more of a short trashy game than anything, addressed to Ren'py classic vn crowd.

I get that you absolute loath the black bars and the "look like a web app" thing.
But I personally found it very useful. Sometimes I need renpy to be a certain size so I can see other windows.

Instead of gutting it what you should have done is left renpy's ability alone. But added:
1. restore resolution to [selection box] button
2. lock resolution checkbox which, when checked, prevents you from accidentally resizing the window
those would have been great additions which would have satisfied your requirements while still allowing people to make use of the built in features

You say this works much better". it doesn't work properly.
a. On my PC you incorrectly detect the native resolution to be 1080p when it is actually 2560x1440 (windows correctly detects it, I am not sure where you are getting your figure then. it should be polling windows)

b. Manually setting it to 2560x1440 gives me a much too small window
check out this screenshot

the 2560x1440 resolution is 4 cm too short horizontally and 2 cm too short on the vertial

Japanese VNs use fixed window because they are coded like arse by corporations trying to save a buck who couldn't be bothered to properly handle resolution. This is not something to aspire to. Poor functionality does not look "more professional"
Renpy towers above its competition by actually having proper window resizing. an extremely well handled and well designed feature

 

[Redikal]

Skipping unseen should be unchecked in the game by default, and if it's not I will correct it, this is definitely a problem. In earlier versions of the game, it was working like you would expect and I made sure of that, this is an error that was introduced in a recent version, so thanks for the report I wasn't aware of it, I'll fix it for the next version.

I removed auto-forward, it's a niche functionality. It's not bad in itself, but it has no sense in a game where you are constantly moving from one screen to another, every time you would click on the screen it would disable it as this is how auto forward works, in this game you are getting a snippet of text most of the time, and you have to use the map, items, click on the screen to interact with them to move somewhere else. It just doesn't work well here I think and it eats a ton of UI space to support it because it needs a dedicated slider and button in-game.

No, skip is in the game, it's not auto-forward, but you can adjust its speed if you wish, and yes skip does have a speed setting, here it is:

You must be registered to see the links

The key being sticky is more comfortable, you can have the skip enabled and replay the game by just toggling it once and going through the game, clicking through screens, and moving forward at a fast pace without reenabling it between screens. It just takes some time to get used to. If you had to always press control as you navigate the map and go through different screens, it would be very uncomfortable, I know it would because the first build was working that way and it was an absolute pain which is why I made it a toggle option which is a simple option built in ren'py, it's not something I invented, it was exactly made for this type of scenario.

You don't understand, the native resolution is the native resolution of the game, not the resolution of your screen.
And yes setting it up at 2560X1440 resolution if you are on a 2560X1440 monitor will actually scale it at 2379x1338, this is to prevent it from covering your taskbar or losing the upper bar of the windows. Once I get more resolutions in the game, I'll remove this safety. I don't think it's a big deal but I do see why you wouldn't want to have it that way.

It's not only Japanese VNs, it's like 99% of the games outside of ren'py that do this, ren'py is the exception here.

 

[mrttao]

Skipping unseen should be unchecked in the game by default, and if it's not I will correct it, this is definitely a problem. In earlier versions of the game, it was working like you would expect and I made sure of that, this is an error that was introduced in a recent version, so thanks for the report I wasn't aware of it, I'll fix it for the next version.

Thank you.
Currently there is no checkbox for it at all. it simply is not in the settings in r9.5

I removed auto-forward, it's a niche functionality. It's not bad in itself, but it has no sense in a game where you are constantly moving from one screen to another, every time you would click on the screen it would disable it as this is how auto forward works, in this game you are getting a snippet of text most of the time, and you have to use the map, items, click on the screen to interact with them to move somewhere else. It just doesn't work well here I think and it eats a ton of UI space to support it because it needs a dedicated slider and button in-game.

I have an injured shoulder right now and it is extremely useful feature as it reduces the amount of clicks you need to do.
Sure it is not useful in a single snippet of text. But every time you have a conversation with someone there are a lot of words in a row without choices.
Also in every single sex scene there are tons of lines in a row. So auto-forward is very useful there

Also as noted, your modifications to skip made it identical to auto-forwards.
right down to the name being changed from skip to to forwards

No, skip is in the game, it's not auto-forward, but you can adjust its speed if you wish, and yes skip does have a speed setting, here it is:

You must be registered to see the links

Alright, I was wrong there. So both skip and auto-forwards have configurable speeds by default. This is good.

It just doesn't work well here I think and it eats a ton of UI space to support it because it needs a dedicated slider and button in-game.

The options menu has plenty of space and you only visit it once in a blue moon.

Also the fact that skip and auto are so similar lets you set different timers on them. You can set one to be instant and the other to be at your reading speed. Thus you do not need to constantly change the settings bar. simply choose to activate a different one based on what you are trying to do.

The key being sticky is more comfortable, you can have the skip enabled and replay the game by just toggling it once and going through the game, clicking through screens, and moving forward at a fast pace without reenabling it between screens. It just takes some time to get used to. If you had to always press control as you navigate the map and go through different screens, it would be very uncomfortable, I know it would because the first build was working that way and it was an absolute pain which is why I made it a toggle option which is a simple option built in ren'py, it's not something I invented, it was exactly made for this type of scenario.

I do not find it more comfortable.
And the issue is that by default renpy you have access to both types. Both sticky and non.
With non sticky being the [ctrl] key and sticky being to mouse click the [skip] button in the gui.

I think that instead of hardcoding it. you should have a checkbox in the options menu that says
Sticky skip keyboard key [ctrl]
which is checked by default in your game and allow us to uncheck it.

You don't understand, the native resolution is the native resolution of the game, not the resolution of your screen.
And yes setting it up at 2560X1440 resolution if you are on a 2560X1440 monitor will actually scale it at 2379x1338, this is to prevent it from covering your taskbar or losing the upper bar of the windows. Once I get more resolutions in the game, I'll remove this safety. I don't think it's a big deal but I do see why you wouldn't want to have it that way.

It effectively makes the game unplayable in window mode. I have to play it in full screen.

It's not only Japanese VNs, it's like 99% of the games outside of ren'py that do this, ren'py is the exception here.

Renpy towers head and shoulders above other games.
This is not a "feature" of those other games. It is those lesser engines lacking renpy's high quality.

Them being bad at handling windows does not make them "more professional"
Japanese VNs in particular are godawful in how poorly coded they are.

In a modern non japanese games you normally get a choice between
Full screen
Borderless Window (either full screen borderless. or partial screen borderless)
Window.

With window mode having vast variation in the quality of handling. from fixed small windows. to wide choice of resolutions. to leaving too little or too much extra space.

Anyways, completely removing this renpy functionality was really unnecessary.
All you had to do was add 2 features

1. click to resize screen to resolution [dropdown]. this is a genuine improvement over defalt renpy.

2. check this box to lock window against freeform resizing (checked by default). allowing us to uncheck it and get back the renpy default window handling.

also 2379x1338 is way too small for 2560X1440.
I can always click the windows key to bring the taskbar to the foreground

 

[Redikal]

Skipping unseen should be on the right on the options menu.
Edit: it seems to be broken right now, was working on R9, it must have been introduced when I made the sdk update in R9.5, will fix it.
Second edit: fixed, thanks for noticing it, was an unwanted change of behavior induced by the Sdk update, the fix will be in the next version.

A long term plan would be to try having a mode for auto forward that can be enabled for skip, through a simple checkbox, possibly. But it's not simple, skip and auto forward are two very different systems in ren'py, they don't behave the same, however there might be a way to make it work by changing some lines straight in the sdk. Otherwise by default they would need to be two different buttons in game which I don't want to have.
I'll also most likely change the name forward back to skip if I can't integrate auto-forward in it through a checkbox, this was actually the original intention but I gave up on it for now because nobody asked for it and it took a lot of time to make that work, so I put it on the very low priority list of things.

The sticky thing button is something I'll look at in the future, this isn't a bad idea if people really prefer pressing ctrl, having a checkbox for it isn't a problem. Though I think there are actual problems if you use ctrl outside of just comfort, it's been years, I don't remember all the reasons for it, would have to double check.

You can't switch between locked window style and freeform resizing without restarting the game so it's not a solution, your problem will be solved once I get more resolutions in the game and remove the safety in place, then there should be no more problems.

 

[hamod]

You people are driving me nuts with the messages.

Here is the super duper complex rocket science in-depth guide on how to google and cheat in things:

Spoiler

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thats great .. i wish all the questions will be answered with all this accurate details .. instead of a lazy short incomplete rushed answers .. it will make life more easier hehe

 

[mrttao]

You can't switch between locked window style and freeform resizing without restarting the game so it's not a solution, your problem will be solved once I get more resolutions in the game and remove the safety in place, then there should be no more problems.

I think you are holding yourself to an unrealistic standard for professionalism.
Restarting the game is perfectly acceptable.
Starcraft made me restart the game when I changed video card settings. As did most AAA games. I never had a problem with that and I do not have any problem with restart your game in order to change this option.
Perfect is the enemy of good.

A long term plan would be to try having a mode for auto forward that can be enabled for skip, through a simple checkbox, possibly. But it's not simple, skip and auto forward are two very different systems in ren'py, they don't behave the same, however there might be a way to make it work by changing some lines straight in the sdk. Otherwise by default they would need to be two different buttons in game which I don't want to have.
I'll also most likely change the name forward back to skip if I can't integrate auto-forward in it through a checkbox, this was actually the original intention but I gave up on it for now because nobody asked for it and it took a lot of time to make that work, so I put it on the very low priority list of things.

This sounds like you are making things way too hard for yourself just to avoid having 2 separate buttons.
If it is way too difficult to make them both key off of the same button then let them key off of different ones.
I don't think having 2 separate buttons is a problem. Almost every renpy game out there has 2 buttons, one for skip and onef or auto.

Skipping unseen should be on the right on the options menu.
Edit: it seems to be broken right now, was working on R9, it must have been introduced when I made the sdk update in R9.5, will fix it.
Second edit: fixed, thanks for noticing it, was an unwanted change of behavior induced by the Sdk update, the fix will be in the next version.

thanks for the fixes

 

[Redikal]

Restarting the game is not acceptable, it's a terrible idea when you have a launcher and a loading screen, it's just bad.
It's simply better to have it made the proper way, the plan is to include a simple button where you can type your custom resolution then that's it, you have the best of both worlds. Perfect cut on windows size and the size you want.
Exact same stuff just miles better, no need to restart the game. If you don't see why it's better, we will never agree.

First of all, I'm just considering having an auto button now, just because you have a shoulder injury and want to play the game that way, maybe you should play other games and come back when you can actually use your arm, that seems more reasonable than asking the dev to add a niche functionality that barely works for this specific game because of the reasons I explained? I'll look into but you have to understand, your request is very niche. I'll see what I can do though, I hear you but you have to understand that this isn't exactly gonna help a lot of people, this is basically mostly just for you and your specific shoulder problem.

No problem with the fixes, this was never intended, this is just a bug, thank you for reporting it.

 

[Redikal]

Here it is:

The default auto function didn't work for the game, it would return you to the main screen when a screen where you have to go to other rooms or any kind of interaction where there is no text would be on, so had to write my own spaghetti for it, and to make it work under one button was tricky but it works now. I'm glad we don't have to talk about this anymore, will be introduced in the next version.
For the more flexible resolution thing, I'll look into it for R11, not R10.

 

[mrttao]

Restarting the game is not acceptable, it's a terrible idea when you have a launcher and a loading screen, it's just bad.
It's simply better to have it made the proper way, the plan is to include a simple button where you can type your custom resolution then that's it, you have the best of both worlds. Perfect cut on windows size and the size you want.
Exact same stuff just miles better, no need to restart the game. If you don't see why it's better, we will never agree.

...
if you put those settings in a launcher then you are still requiring a restart.
It just forces a manual restart of "manually quit game. manually run it again. change setting in launcher"

If you do add those settings to the launcher, that would be wonderful. thank you.

First of all, I'm just considering having an auto button now, just because you have a shoulder injury and want to play the game that way, maybe you should play other games and come back when you can actually use your arm

shrug. alright. sure. I will play other games.
Although you realize I am not the only person in the world with need for accessibility features. Lots of people have injuries or disabilities.

It's not like I asked you to program something.
You tore out renpy's built in accessibility / QoL feature because you thought it looked unprofessional to have 2 buttons.
This is a form of weird perfectionism that is self harming. And all I did was point out that you spent effort to make things worse.

 

[Redikal]

You are just impossible, even when putting the stuff you want you are still unhappy. This is just a silly crusade and you are inventing new kind of issues everytime.
Perfectionnism has some issues but this has nothing to do with it and this is frankly none of your business, I take satisfaction of good work and not half assed shit and this is what helped me get a living out of making games.
Mind your own business, go play others games and don't come back thank you.

 

[mrttao]

You are just impossible, even when putting the stuff you want you are still unhappy. This is just a silly crusade and you are inventing new kind of issues everytime.
Perfectionnism has some issues but this has nothing to do with it and this is frankly none of your business, I take satisfaction of good work and not half assed shit and this is what helped me get a living out of making games.
Mind your own business, go play others games and don't come back thank you.

If you check the timestamps on the last few posts. As well as the quotes links, you will see that
#1,926 I was replying to #1,924 (where you said you won't allow those options) without having seen #1,925 existence (where you changed your mind and implemented those options).

the latter two posts were 4 minutes apart, while the 1st post was 3 hours before the other two.
it took more than 4 minutes to write that post and forum only loads new posts when you hit reply button. And even then loads it in a way that such a post is easily missed.

So, I wasn't trying to invent new issues. I was referring to the same issues which you resolved in 1925 and just did not see that post. Making post 1926 obsolete

 

[amorousa]

Yo, how do I restore sanity?

 

[MatSapo]

When is there going to be the next update?

 

[Ojbal]

When is there going to be the next update?

Probably september.

 

[Deleted member 5246609]

when it ended on me i got pissed. I wanted to see more. I never been so into a game like this. The Story kept me going. I can't stop. Definitely lookiong forward for more.

 

[Ottoeight]

Yo, how do I restore sanity?

When MC eats.

 

[WirelessDemon]

Where are the art previews?

 

[Certainly One]

Anyone got the APK link? I saw some but it error