Do you ever feel that good games are becoming less and less available?

[Crimson Delight Games]

if they get enough support to continue, they got enough support to stagnate and milk subs.

This is a common misconception I see being thrown around, not just here on F95 but other places as well. If someone is making thousands of $$$ per month on Patreon, the worst thing they can do from a financial standpoint is to continue 'milking' by drawing out development. Why, you might ask? Doesn't it play in their favor to prolong the gravy train for as long as possible? Well... no. It doesn't.

There's a lot more money to be made in sales, than in patronage. Steam accounts number in the tens of millions. Obviously not every person on Steam is going to play your lewd game, but the numbers on there dwarf Patreon's/SStar's by orders of magnitude. Maybe there's a handful of exceptions like Summertime Saga or Wild Life that rake in more on Patreon per month than they'd make selling a finished product, but the other 99% of mid-tier to high-tier successful games accused of milking are actually doing themselves a disservice. Their devs would earn a ton more money by finishing their games, putting the titles up for sale, and starting a new project/sequel while also growing their current supporter base.

And before anyone says that doing so would reduce their monthly income by losing subscribers, keep in mind most patrons would happily stick around after a successful project, because it shows their favorite developer actually finishes games! So not only would the dev not lose subscribers, they'd probably gain them, and also have a finished product to sell on Steam/Itch/etc. Ergo, by prolonging development -- aka 'milking' -- they're hemorrhaging subscribers while also losing out on a steady income from projects they could've finished and sold via digital retailers. It's simple economics.

You also have to take into account that most people developing lewd games are amateurs who have poor workflow/organization, and in many cases have no idea what they're doing. A game's updates can stall for a number of reasons: mismanagement, feature creep, ego battles and drama, personal life getting in the way, or any mix of these that turn normal projects into lumbering zombies that go on for years. There's also games whose devs can't work on them full time (like the team I'm on) because they don't have the luxury of quitting their IRL jobs. So... things aren't as black-or-white as most people like to make them. It takes an ungodly amount of drive, skill, and energy to make even a shitty game, let alone a good one... and I'd add to that a fair amount of luck as well!

TL;DR: Devs actually lose money by stretching out development. And most don't do it on purpose, either.

Older rpgs you had the ability to craft and deploy traps.
It was mostly useless as you can just slaughter the mobs anyway.
Trapping was more of a self imposed challange then anything else.
Modern day rpgs dont have traps anymore.

Play Underrail, you can make a trapper build...
Or any other build you want, the game's leveling system is incredibly robust.

 

[Deleted member 440241]

This is a common misconception I see being thrown around, not just here on F95 but other places as well. If someone is making thousands of $$$ per month on Patreon, the worst thing they can do from a financial standpoint is to continue 'milking' by drawing out development. Why, you might ask? Doesn't it play in their favor to prolong the gravy train for as long as possible? Well... no. It doesn't.

There's a lot more money to be made in sales, than in patronage. Steam accounts number in the tens of millions. Obviously not every person on Steam is going to play your lewd game, but the numbers on there dwarf Patreon's/SStar's by orders of magnitude. Maybe there's a handful of exceptions like Summertime Saga or Wild Life that rake in more on Patreon per month than they'd make selling a finished product, but the other 99% of mid-tier to high-tier successful games accused of milking are actually doing themselves a disservice. Their devs would earn a ton more money by finishing their games, putting the titles up for sale, and starting a new project/sequel while also growing their current supporter base.

You're missing the "cost" part of cost/benefit analysis. Finishing a game takes a lot of time, effort, and resources. A lone dev releasing nothing mechanical updates can milk a couple grand a month with minimal effort while retaining most of their patrons. Finishing a game usually means getting at least some help (art, code, writing, translation, etc) and might only bring someone up to 3 or 4 grand per month which typically isn't enough to cover working full time on a game. Releasing it on Steam afterwards doesn't give back the months you spent working 2 jobs or extreme budgeting to get by. It also has no guaranteed payment, as people actually have to buy the game at that point. The former is much easier and safer.

 

[Crimson Delight Games]

You're missing the "cost" part of cost/benefit analysis. Finishing a game takes a lot of time, effort, and resources. A lone dev releasing nothing mechanical updates can milk a couple grand a month with minimal effort while retaining most of their patrons.

I never said they wouldn't make money doing that... but they could make more if they finished and sold their game(s).

Finishing a game usually means getting at least some help (art, code, writing, translation, etc) and might only bring someone up to 3 or 4 grand per month which typically isn't enough to cover working full time on a game.

Well it's a given that something needs to be invested - either the dev's own time/money, or outsider/contractor labor. Games don't build themselves, after all. But my main point was focused on devs who are already perceived as successful, since one needs to have had success in order to prolong it. And anyone making a couple of grand a month can affort to sub-contract. Or even better, finish the game on their own, since the support base is already there and eager to help!

Releasing it on Steam afterwards doesn't give back the months you spent working 2 jobs or extreme budgeting to get by. It also has no guaranteed payment, as people actually have to buy the game at that point.

Remember, we're talking successful devs here, not people who struggle with their finances. Also, the crux of my argument was that delaying development is a poor business decision. Which it is. Nothing in life is certain, but having a finalized product gives you more than just another revenue stream - it's also free advertisement, and a guarantee of reliability.

Which of the following scenarios is preferable?

Scenario 'A': take your patrons' donations without delivering much, 12 months go by, you've earned XYZ money, and apart from that you're in the exact same place as you were a year ago but with fewer supporters and a lot of bad will with the remaining ones!
Scenario 'B': work on your game, 12 months go by, you've earned XYZ money, but you also have a completed title, your supporters are in high spirits, you probably get new patrons, any sales you make from your recently-finished titled are a bonus since you still have your subscribers, and everyone who supports you is more likely to do so in the future!

Yes, 'A' is easier, but 'B' is more lucrative. Which was my whole point. Any successful developer should aim to finish their game ASAP (up to whatever degree of quality they desire), because that's the best way to maximize income while also retaining and growing one's patrons/supporters/subscribers. Is it possible to coast by while doing nothing, and still earn money? Yes. But is it a good business decision? No, because it's wasteful, and doesn't maximize (potential) income.

EDIT/P.S. I also forgot to mention how much of an impact one's backlog has on future projects. Doesn't matter if we're talking about games, or film, or music, or art, or books, anyone working in the entertainment industry (of which lewd games are a subset of) should strive to have as many quality titles in their backlog as possible, because old work sells and advertises new work. Focusing only on subscriptions is myopic and detrimental to one's brand.

 

[desmosome]

This is a common misconception I see being thrown around, not just here on F95 but other places as well. If someone is making thousands of $$$ per month on Patreon, the worst thing they can do from a financial standpoint is to continue 'milking' by drawing out development. Why, you might ask? Doesn't it play in their favor to prolong the gravy train for as long as possible? Well... no. It doesn't.

There's a lot more money to be made in sales, than in patronage. Steam accounts number in the tens of millions. Obviously not every person on Steam is going to play your lewd game, but the numbers on there dwarf Patreon's/SStar's by orders of magnitude. Maybe there's a handful of exceptions like Summertime Saga or Wild Life that rake in more on Patreon per month than they'd make selling a finished product, but the other 99% of mid-tier to high-tier successful games accused of milking are actually doing themselves a disservice. Their devs would earn a ton more money by finishing their games, putting the titles up for sale, and starting a new project/sequel while also growing their current supporter base.

And before anyone says that doing so would reduce their monthly income by losing subscribers, keep in mind most patrons would happily stick around after a successful project, because it shows their favorite developer actually finishes games! So not only would the dev not lose subscribers, they'd probably gain them, and also have a finished product to sell on Steam/Itch/etc. Ergo, by prolonging development -- aka 'milking' -- they're hemorrhaging subscribers while also losing out on a steady income from projects they could've finished and sold via digital retailers. It's simple economics.

You also have to take into account that most people developing lewd games are amateurs who have poor workflow/organization, and in many cases have no idea what they're doing. A game's updates can stall for a number of reasons: mismanagement, feature creep, ego battles and drama, personal life getting in the way, or any mix of these that turn normal projects into lumbering zombies that go on for years. There's also games whose devs can't work on them full time (like the team I'm on) because they don't have the luxury of quitting their IRL jobs. So... things aren't as black-or-white as most people like to make them. It takes an ungodly amount of drive, skill, and energy to make even a shitty game, let alone a good one... and I'd add to that a fair amount of luck as well!

TL;DR: Devs actually lose money by stretching out development. And most don't do it on purpose, either.



Play Underrail, you can make a trapper build...
Or any other build you want, the game's leveling system is incredibly robust.

Well, you have to consider the ambitions of the dev and their willingness to put in the work to reap those benefits. Of course, milking will never lead to more revenue than continuing to release content until completion, then starting a new project. That's just common sense. But do all the devs truly want to keep pushing themselves for a bigger piece of the pie?

People throw around the word milking all the time, but to milk something, you have to actually get it fat in the first place. No small time dev that is still growing and trying to achieve a sustainable revenue is going to milk. That said, it's pretty obvious when we look at some of the most egregious offenders that have thousands of patreons. Tthey feel comfortable in their bracket and don't feel like putting in the grueling work to keep growing. Some brazenly milk while literally doing nothing but make intermittent "progress" updates and excuses (some potentially valid, and others quite clearly bullshit). Others just coast by while doing minimal work when they feel like. Some get bored and start a new project at their leisure. All the while making a livable salary on this income. It makes perfect sense that there is an allure of maintaining a steady income while doing essentially nothing, and that some of the devs decide to take this road.

However, it's an absolute minority of devs that even manage to grow enough to make milking a feasible option. Most cases of abandoning is just the opposite. No support to keep things financially viable. There is only really one expected outcome for the majority of projects that gets started. You need to grind out the initial growth phase that last years sometimes with nothing but your passion fueling the endeavor. When devving is as accessible as it is today, you will get a lot of people who don't have the mettle or even the means to see it through.

 

[Crimson Delight Games]

It makes perfect sense that there is an allure of maintaining a steady income while doing essentially nothing, and that some of the devs decide to take this road.

Sure, that's true. But anyone who's at the point where they have the luxury to coast along is actively shooting themselves in the foot if they decide to drag out development. I guess it comes down to personal goals for each individual dev.

However, it's an absolute minority of devs that even manage to grow enough to make milking a feasible option. Most cases of abandoning is just the opposite. No support to keep things financially viable.

A lot of it is due to inexperience or poor project management. Also, too many devs try to jump onto bandwagons and copy the current flavor of the month game, instead of doing their own thing. It's much easier to push through bad times when you're doing something you enjoy, than if your only incentive is money and you're forcing yourself to work on something you're ambivalent toward. I feel like a lot of people ignore this. Just look at how many threads pop up on F95 with people asking what kind of game a new developer should try and make for maximum impact/success. That's just asking for failure.

You need to grind out the initial growth phase that last years sometimes with nothing but your passion fueling the endeavor. When devving is as accessible as it is today, you will get a lot of people who don't have the mettle or even the means to see it through.

While I agree with you in a broad sense, I think success or failure are mostly dictated by market forces, and individual devs' input is only a small(ish) fraction of that. Game development still falls under the 80/20 rule (as do most things in life), accessibility or not. If anything, more people trying their hand at it means higher competition for everyone involved. If you took away the accessibility factor, you'd still have an 80/20 split in success (in favor of failure, of course), but the overall level of production and polish would be much higher since only super-skilled people would even attempt to toss their gloves in the ring. And yet, 80% of them would still fail. It's like having 10 hot girls to pick from, but you can only choose 2 - no matter what happens, 8 pretty ones will be left by the side.

Anyone with eyes can confirm this by looking at pre-2017 adult games, which have vastly inferior quality to more recent titles. If you took 100 of those games and magically brought them into today's market, almost all would fail. Likewise, taking even a mediocre game from today back into the past would probably see it becoming a hit... or at least a noticable success. What I'm trying to say is that the Pareto principle will mow down 80% of anything on the market at a given point in time, and individual dev aptitudes (or lack thereof) have a much smaller influence on overall success than people like to think!

To bring this tangent back to our original argument, I'll add that any dev who finds success owes it to themselves to try and maximize it by finishing their games, because for every success there's a mountain of failures who never got that chance (for whatever reason). So I stand by my original point: squandering potential profits due to short-term laziness or lack of vision is just bad business sense, and most devs who make the mistake commit it out of ignorance.

 

[desmosome]

Game development still falls under the 80/20 rule (as do most things in life), accessibility or not.

For sure. Dunno about 80/20, but the point is that the more accessible it is, the more failures you will see in absolute numbers. You also see more successes and quality products, just by sheer numbers. So the argument that good games are less available these days is unfounded. Maybe harder to find, but certainly not less. One thing to consider is that number of participants doesn't always lead to the best products. The standards and culture of the industry can affect things, but that is too complicated for me. This probably relates to your point about copy cats and lack of vision. But anyways, any argument about things being better in the past is mostly just nostalgia. I think 90s music was the shit, but that's what I grew up with. There is no reasonable way to say that music today sucks compared to the past without getting into personal preferences and social trends.

While I agree with you in a broad sense, I think success or failure are mostly dictated by market forces, and individual devs' input is only a small(ish) fraction of that.

Absolutely. In fact, we can't even really define what these market forces are. It's certainly not really about quality, originality, vision, creativity. It almost looks like a crapshoot when I look at the projects that fail to get traction vs the ones that succeed. Broadly, we can say that harem, power fantasy, strong MC that starts strong, dating sim, incest and some other themes that basically stroke the self inserters' ego are the ones that have a chance for explosive growth (if it has good DAZ renders). So other than tailoring your game into a the next copy pasta harem blockbuster, only the passion for your project can sustain you until the game picks up some steam. Of course, most games don't really have anything that makes it stand out and is incapable of picking up steam.

 

[Deleted member 440241]

Yes, 'A' is easier, but 'B' is more lucrative. Which was my whole point.

And A being easier is my whole point. An interesting premise or unique art style is often all it takes to get initial interest and moderate success on Patreon. For a lot of people that ease is more alluring than the potential for higher profits from B. Those people don't care about gaining trust for their next project or getting popular on Steam, they just want the steady stream of income from milking their project. The fact that people will eventually stop patronizing them is a distant problem to deal with in the future.

 

[OsamiWorks]

A lot of it is due to inexperience or poor project management.

Lol you can literally see when a game has 0 scope, I'm not great at project management but its definitely a separate skill entirely from everything else. Games like wild life or fallen doll that have an amazing start and then people get mad about speed when these are just indie devs and not triple AAA studios that put 5+ years into their game.

Also the people here dont understand what youre saying and even less actually support creators. The devs on this site know anyone can play their games for free and know they probably wont make any money. Most of the people who are angry and criticize devs dont support anyone. Even less have actually truly wanted to see someone to be successful. Just let them have their opinion.

 

[rk-47]

Honestly true, i often check trending tab (last 30 days) and its either generic renpy or boring rpgm and that too the model are bland and fake or just stolen assets

 

[ilikechong]

I haven't found a game with good modelling for weeks on end，I really feel that adult games are in decline，Well modelled games always take months to update，Since The Secret: Reloaded was abandoned，I feel despair.

 

[Guntag]

Honestly true, i often check trending tab (last 30 days) and its either generic renpy or boring rpgm and that too the model are bland and fake or just stolen assets

I never use the trending tab. The trending tabs show the threads getting a lot of views .They're brand new games nobody knows about, so a lot of people are viewing the thread in order to know what it is, it's not a sign of quality, just a lot of people checking the thread.
I prefer to use https://f95zone.to/sam/latest_alpha/#/cat=games/page=1/sort=rating/date=30 with whatever tags I want.

 

[Deleted member 4671389]

This could be said the same about the general current gaming industry as well. Not just adult games. Many new released AAA games is just a cash grab filled with microtransaction and DLC. Not to mention the censored and forced western political bullshit that got shoved in to so many games. All the games from big western developer is trash now. Ubisoft, EA, Activision, Microsoft...etc. Occasionally we got some something good like Elden Ring and that is it.

I used to enjoy gaming but because of all that shit, gaming just isn't fun anymore. At least we can go back to some good ol retro games with emulation.

 

[Neet11]

I'm more worried about creativity and imagination becoming more and more sparse.

Generally games that has a unique mechanic or gameplay keep a cult following that stays and supports them. In all honesty the games that get abandoned usually have glaring flaws like bad coding, ms paint art, or being generic. To look at it chronologically the 2000's porn games were made by those interested in creating porn games for the sake of it, eventually the niche was filled by Hacks that wanted money and thought porn games are a great market to fuck around in, while the hobbyists are still here making what they like and having fun with it. Their being drowned out by the overwhelming amount of shit people make. I'm not entirely clear on the harassment policy so I can't say to much about creators, but We all know when a game is being milked.

 

[♍VoidTraveler]

We all know when a game is being milked.

Doesn't prevent anyone from enjoying being milked though.

 

[Serupiko]

When it comes to abandoned stuff, there are a lot of, I feel, too ambitious projects. Like Margitt, the horny omen said, "Game dev, lay your foolish ambitions to rest". This is specially relevant when its an attempt to make another sandboxy harem game with the same characters as always. And ngl, I really like those games, when done right, but there are too many and are too tropey rn.

I wish we got more actual games, not just poorly implemented platformer/rpgmaker game or renpy management of like 2 variables. I know it all cant be Rance or Kamidori level, but more low to mid scale size projects a la huniepop would be neat.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Lol you can literally see when a game has 0 scope, I'm not great at project management but its definitely a separate skill entirely from everything else. Games like wild life or fallen doll that have an amazing start and then people get mad about speed when these are just indie devs and not triple AAA studios that put 5+ years into their game.

Can hardly give the guys behind Wilf Life a "free pass" as just "indie devs" anylonger.. Team size and how much they rake in each month now doesn't really reflect progress of the project... They have a demo on steam, but I don't really see early access coming anytime soon. Of which I believe they to afraid of what that could do to their patreon income.. Also their failed kickstarter a while back which they argued was just to boost awareness about the game and not about the money? Really? To boost awareness about your kickstarter you need to work for it. People doesn't just stumble over it randomly.

No adult game will ever reach into an AAA state. Not even an AA with a decent publisher backing them. Project management and being structured is imho a key indigrent for success for just about anything you set out to do in life.

 

[Joshua Tree]

When it comes to abandoned stuff, there are a lot of, I feel, too ambitious projects. Like Margitt, the horny omen said, "Game dev, lay your foolish ambitions to rest". This is specially relevant when its an attempt to make another sandboxy harem game with the same characters as always. And ngl, I really like those games, when done right, but there are too many and are too tropey rn.

I wish we got more actual games, not just poorly implemented platformer/rpgmaker game or renpy management of like 2 variables. I know it all cant be Rance or Kamidori level, but more low to mid scale size projects a la huniepop would be neat.

Imho, when starting out as a "new" creator of these type of games. The best is just "keep it simple stupid". Better to learn how to crawl with something small and simple, before learn how to walk and run.

About get more actual games? Those that try get a lot of shit thrown at them for not enough fap, being blue balled etc. The "small potatoe" crowd go out bawling as soon as they see something being created in the likes of Unity and Unreal.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Imho, when starting out as a "new" creator of these type of games. The best is just "keep it simple stupid". Better to learn how to crawl with something small and simple, before learn how to walk and run.

Technically speaking you're right, but practically the scene isn't anymore designed for this kind of approach.

This thread wouldn't have existed if the scene weren't saturated by average games. And the fact that, like Crimson Delight Games said, those games are generally better than what we got in the past alas don't help. In the end, your first game will generally pass unnoticed, burning all your budget and hopes.
Of course, you'll become an established author and you'll have one finished game in your portfolio. This can help for the future, but what future do you have when you don't have anymore money to put on a game, and lost the most part of your passion releasing a game that no one played ?
It's the paradox of the scene nowadays. If you want a chance to standout and one day be successful enough to not lost money, you need to do something different and more ambitious. Or you need to pass more time advertising for your game than effectively working on it. But the last option is a trap, because once successful you'll want to finally works seriously on your game, what will mean more time between two releases and you'll be accused to milk your patrons...

About get more actual games? Those that try get a lot of shit thrown at them for not enough fap, being blue balled etc.

And after starts threads to complain about the lack of creativity and quality in the scene...

 

[Krynh]

Statistically ~50% of all western games are bound to be abandoned or never be finished.

The Japanese games don't get abandoned because they're made by dedicated studios that don't release games in progress.

 

[Raay_game]

People develop their games with different attitudes - make money, want appreciation from others, or just simply love making games.

My story is that I hate regular jobs and don't want to live on things I don't like. then I saw some people made adult games and earned a lot.I wish I could be like them one day and I don't really need a lot of money as they do but just enough to support my daily life to keep on developing. So I'm making my own game now. But apparently, I'm too naive - the crowd reaction didn't grow as my expectation. And it takes tons of time and effort to develop a game, especially as I am working on everything by myself.

Now I am not sure whether it could even be finished and how long could I keep working on my game. Perhaps soon I need to go back to regular jobs.

And sorry for telling my off-topic story here. I simply want to say reality doesn't work the way we want it to. When a game doesn't result in the way the author wants, it could get abandoned. So do the passion of the developers.

(Well if you found my English weird, sorry...I'm not a native speaker)