Do you like seeing a character's thoughts?

[Mimir's Lab]

One of the most contentious topics, at least to me, is whether seeing a character's thoughts adds or detracts from the experience in a scene of a VN. I personally hate seeing a character's thoughts because of two reasons. One, it comes off way too "on the nose" like the author is directly telling you himself what's really happening behind the scenes without giving the audience any room to speculate what that character might be thinking. And two, I heavily subscribe to the "show don't tell" technique of writing where you purposely leave some things unexplained through text but instead show what's really going on through visuals. Sometimes the developer may fail to get the right point across with this method but I'd say the intrigue of trying to find out what the character thinks more than makes up for it.

In the worst case, seeing a character's thoughts in a scene removes all tension as you're no longer wondering if a girl likes your MC or not or whether a character can sense the ambush you set for him, it's all revealed to you so you know with certainty that things are going your way. In the best case, it removes the thinking for you if you prefer to play a VN with your brain turned off.

But I could just not be seeing the big picture. Maybe seeing a girl's thoughts turn some people on?

 

[Lerd0]

I don't mind if it's not overused and it's mostly for the protag thoughts if u start seeing every single characters thoughts it turns me off, so i voted for it Depends...
Sorry if i didn't understand the question.

 

[Mimir's Lab]

I don't mind if it's not overused and it's mostly for the protag thoughts if u start seeing every single characters thoughts it turns me off, so i voted for it Depends...

That actually brings up an interesting point. Show don't tell doesn't work if you have a faceless protagonist (or a POV protagonist) and you can't actually show his facial expressions. I guess in those situations it might be okay.

 

[Lerd0]

That actually brings up an interesting point. Show don't tell doesn't work if you have a faceless protagonist (or a POV protagonist) and you can't actually show his facial expressions. I guess in those situations it might be okay.

U managed to find logic in my ramblings , doesn't happen very often.
I think i understand ur issue with seeing the characters toughts in some games it does spoil the plot and remove all mystery and intrigue.

 

[Belle]

It's one of my biggest pet-peeves, and it really ruins my impressions of a game the second it happens. It doesn't help that it feels like 90% of adult games out there use this storytelling technique.

This is a variation of the Omniscient Narrator principle, where the narrator has perfect information about every character and event in the story. The thing about this technique is that, as with all kinds of storytelling, it needs to be used with purpose for it to work. My impression is that most devs who use it do so only because they lack the confidence to rely on subtext and silence. They (mistakenly) think you won't understand that your sexual advances towards a woman were successful unless you get to hear her thoughts directly. We, the players, don't need any of that. As long as a story and its characters are reasonably competently written, we will understand how they feel about something without needing to have it explicitly told.

What really ticks me off with this technique is that it always deflates sexual tension in an instant. If you have a scene where the MC is trying to seduce someone, the moment you get to hear his or her thoughts is the moment any tension completely goes away. A subtle smile and a flirty comment are way, way more effective than a sudden jump into that person's thoughts so that we can read that, yes, he/she wants to fuck the MC. Why even bother with writing seduction at that point?

Most writers who do this could do better if they only would believe in themselves and their writing. Don't ruin your storytelling simply because you're afraid we won't understand your characters. We do.

 

[Doorknob22]

Protagonist thoughts is a debatable subject but what really annoys me is suddenly seeing other characters' thoughts, characters which up to this point were nothing but lust objects. This is usually done by developers who want to make sure the retard player is 100% sure the characters are OK with what's going on around them, usually a seduction or corruption.

I actually avert my look when these lazy abominations show up on the screen, clicking "next" until they are gone. So annoying.

 

[Mimir's Lab]

A subtle smile and a flirty comment are way, way more effective than a sudden jump into that person's thoughts so that we can read that, yes, he/she wants to fuck the MC.

I read somewhere a long time ago that words can be mistaken depending on whats said, its context and subtext, and how it's said, but that body language is universally understood.

 

[Doorknob22]

I read somewhere a long time ago that words can be mistaken depending on whats said, its context and subtext, and how it's said, but that body language is universally understood.

That's 98% true but in (pr0n) games conveying messages via body language and facial expressions also depends on the skill of the artists.

 

[Belle]

That's 98% true but in (pr0n) games conveying messages via body language and facial expressions also depends on the skill of the artists.

True enough. Many devs seem to take the "smile" slider and dial it up to 100%, keeping it there for as long as any fuckable character is speaking to the MC.

I think a lot of devs could make huge leaps in quality if they only looked at reference material, such as pictures, movies, or even books.

 

[desmosome]

I agree with most of the people here, but there are situations where reading the NPC's (mainly the female target) thoughts can improve a scene: when it is used as a means to increase the eroticism in a scene.

As mentioned above, this mostly applies to corruption games and non-con stuff. An unwilling female would not blurt out everything they are thinking or give too much to go on. Also, in the process of her corruption, her changing mentality can be part of the fetish. This is quite evident if it's a female protagonist corruption game, but it still applies to male MC games where he corrupts others. Reading the victims thoughts can improve a scene in this context. So yea... it depends on the scenario.

 

[Doorknob22]

True enough. Many devs seem to take the "smile" slider and dial it up to 100%, keeping it there for as long as any fuckable character is speaking to the MC.

I think a lot of devs could make huge leaps in quality if they only looked at reference material, such as pictures, movies, or even books.

1. One of the things I'm always harassing my QA testers about is the issue of expressions. Are they realistic? Do they make sense? What would you think this person feels if it wasn't for the text?
2. My rule of thumb: dial it where you think the expression is solid and then reduce it by 20%... Less is more.

 

[Pretentious Goblin]

Looking at my favorite games, I think they all have internal monologue or descriptions of what the corruptee is thinking. I tend towards less story-driven games that focus more on player-driven character development, mainly trainer-style games. These are games that revel in the process of corruption, not just the outcome. So being privy to the character's thoughts is a great way to savor the impact I'm having on them, even if I don't necessarily need it to understand roughly what's going through the character's head.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Show don't tell doesn't work if you have a faceless protagonist (or a POV protagonist) and you can't actually show his facial expressions.

What would be a problem if the possibility to "show" things was limited to the sole expression of the MC, but it isn't the case.

A thought like "OMG she lust for me, right ?", is shown through the expression of the girl, not the one of the MC. As for more complex thoughts, you don't need to show MC's expressions to make him talk with a friend, by example, instead of making him stupidly stay up in the middle of the hallway, lost in thoughts for five minutes.
And finally, you can also show those thoughts through the dialog lines. Not by saying them out aloud, but if, while talking with his teacher, the MC suddenly start to be flirt with no reason, doesn't it mean that he thought that she can possibly be flirting with him ?
This latter approach present the advantage to imply the other character. Take the classical "MC and his mom are showering. Without him really trying, MC's dick touch his mom back and she don't react", by example.
Instead of a thought that would goes like, "she don't react, does it mean that she like it", you can make the MC apologize for this. Then it's, in some way, the mother that will express MC's thought. If she answer something like, "well, it happen", she's probably not really interested. But if she start to blush, or give a confuse answer, it mean something. And if she rush out of the shower to go masturbate in her room, it mean even more.


After years advertising for thoughts free games, I revised my position. It's not always possible to have an effectively 100% thoughts free game. There's times when the story itself need that you give some clues to the player, and that those can only be shown through MC's thoughts.
But globally, whatever if it's a First or Third person game, whatever if the player effectively immerse himself into the MC or not, the MC is expected to be the player, dot. Therefore, MC's thoughts should not be on the screen, but on the player's mind. It's the player that should have those thoughts, that should wonder if the girls lust for the MC, not the MC that should explicitly express this question.
And it's, at least from my point of view, the meaning of "show, don't tell". It's not the thoughts that you have to show, but the situation leading to them that have to be explicit enough for the player to have those thoughts. You show that the girl possibly lust for the MC, instead of using an indirect way to tell it to the player.

 

[Belle]

What would be a problem if the possibility to "show" things was limited to the sole expression of the MC, but it isn't the case.

A thought like "OMG she lust for me, right ?", is shown through the expression of the girl, not the one of the MC. As for more complex thoughts, you don't need to show MC's expressions to make him talk with a friend, by example, instead of making him stupidly stay up in the middle of the hallway, lost in thoughts for five minutes.
And finally, you can also show those thoughts through the dialog lines. Not by saying them out aloud, but if, while talking with his teacher, the MC suddenly start to be flirt with no reason, doesn't it mean that he thought that she can possibly be flirting with him ?
This latter approach present the advantage to imply the other character. Take the classical "MC and his mom are showering. Without him really trying, MC's dick touch his mom back and she don't react", by example.
Instead of a thought that would goes like, "she don't react, does it mean that she like it", you can make the MC apologize for this. Then it's, in some way, the mother that will express MC's thought. If she answer something like, "well, it happen", she's probably not really interested. But if she start to blush, or give a confuse answer, it mean something. And if she rush out of the shower to go masturbate in her room, it mean even more.


After years advertising for thoughts free games, I revised my position. It's not always possible to have an effectively 100% thoughts free game. There's times when the story itself need that you give some clues to the player, and that those can only be shown through MC's thoughts.
But globally, whatever if it's a First or Third person game, whatever if the player effectively immerse himself into the MC or not, the MC is expected to be the player, dot. Therefore, MC's thoughts should not be on the screen, but on the player's mind. It's the player that should have those thoughts, that should wonder if the girls lust for the MC, not the MC that should explicitly express this question.
And it's, at least from my point of view, the meaning of "show, don't tell". It's not the thoughts that you have to show, but the situation leading to them that have to be explicit enough for the player to have those thoughts. You show that the girl possibly lust for the MC, instead of using an indirect way to tell it to the player.

I don't think this thread is about the MC's thoughts. It is almost impossible to write a first-person game without those. This is about the omniscient first-person perspective where you, as the player, suddenly get to know what's in the head of other characters that are not the MC, while the MC does not get that luxury.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I don't think this thread is about the MC's thoughts.

Perhaps, but the "show don't tell doesn't work if you have a faceless protagonist (or a POV protagonist) and you can't actually show his facial expressions", that I quoted, then answered to, is clearly about the MC.

It is almost impossible to write a first-person game without those.

Yet none of the "regular" FPS games, or at least really few of them, have those thoughts wrote, or said. At least not as explicit thoughts. Even the ones with a deep story prefer to show a situation that will put those thoughts into the players mind, instead of pushing them inside it.
It's only with the rise of "sandboxed mini-games with cutscenes" games, that this trope effectively appeared. This being due principally to the fact that the information can't be shown outside of the cutscenes, because the scenarists have absolutely no control out of them. Yet it's still not a norm ; the majority of those games achieved without real difficulty to avoid this subterfuge.
Not, as I said, that a 100% thoughts free game is always possible, but it's perfectly possible to limit them to the strict minimum needed by the story itself.

As for other characters thoughts, then what I said apply even more, they shouldn't exist at all. Either the player have to know "this information", and the character just have to talk, act or react, instead of uselessly thinking, or the player don't have to know, and therefore the thoughts are even more useless.

 

[Crimson Delight Games]

You can't really do 1st or 2nd person without internal monologues. Hell, most novels are structured this way.

But yeah, omniscient narrator can get annoying real fast, especially if the prose keep jumping around from char to char.

As with everything else, it's a tool whose efficiency depends on the author's skill.

 

[Mimir's Lab]

These are games that revel in the process of corruption, not just the outcome. So being privy to the character's thoughts is a great way to savor the impact I'm having on them, even if I don't necessarily need it to understand roughly what's going through the character's head.

I think I am starting to understand why it works in the context of a corruption game or a story where a female character develops some very indecent thoughts towards the MC. I recently read a porn manhwa where a girl starts to develop feelings for a guy she pity fucks and although it does show this change physically (blushing, trying to hold back a moan, etc.), I think those sex scenes would have been worst without the girl's thoughts. But then the contrarian side of me thinks maybe there's a way to make it work with even more images to show this instead of blatantly stating the fact.

Hell, most novels are structured this way.

Which brings up an interesting point that I've been pondering as well. Are adult western visual novels more like novels or like movies/tv? I make the distinction between western and eastern visual novels because eastern are clearly more like novels, images serving only as references to what might be happening in the text. The question of what adult western visual novels are more similar to is important because the two mediums use different techniques to tell story, character's thoughts being one of them (except in the case of third person novels). I think visual novels at the moment are a very experimental mix of the two that picks and chooses techniques from the them depending on what's most convenient to the developer. Whether that works is a very mixed bag for me. Though I guess the effectiveness does depend largely on the skill of the developer as well.

 

[Rythan25]

Only when what he is thinking is stupid as holy hell... case in point, the MC from Sinful Delicacies... he acts like an ass-kisser to his mom in spoken dialogue, but in his thoughts its ALWAYS the same trash OVER & OVER... gems like "I want to fuck the slut into this bitch, and make her my whore".... I mean wtf... if your that much of a peace of trash, at least be man enough to say that to her face and see if she's into that kind of "try-hard alpha" type of guy.

Other than that I am ok with the characters having some "thought" displayed in text... as it clears up the Dev/Author's story, and gives us what certain scenes were meant to be taken as, I dont need that SHITTY "open to interpretation" garbage.... If the MC's LI is getting raped I want to see thought bubbles of "I hope someone murders this monster one day for what he is doing to me"... instead of NOTHING... so that some tools can "argue" that it was the hottest scene of the game, and she was secretly into it, cause it wasnt her "boring partner".... I mean GTFO with that shit.

 

[clitacafro]

It depends. I really dislike it when it's just a stranger you meet. I think it's only fitting, if there is a reason. Either you are a completely passive observer and are all-knowing, or if you know someone well enough or posses power of any form justifying it.

If it's just always, it start being very boring and is typically a sign of bad writing or character design.

 

[deskald]

I don't mind if it's not overused and it's mostly for the protag thoughts if u start seeing every single characters thoughts it turns me off, so i voted for it Depends...
Sorry if i didn't understand the question.

Sometimes having little text about secondary characters' reactions, thoughts, moods are usefull.
"Anna remember that night with passion", "Arthur seems proud of his tool", "Emma is in a good mood today"... help to understand the characters without "reading their minds".