Do you like seeing a character's thoughts?

[anne O'nymous]

Are adult western visual novels more like novels or like movies/tv?

I would say that they are whatever you want them to be.

There's no real reason to choose one over the other, except the habit, and your own capabilities. Doing a Visual Novel that would look on the movie side need good scene building skills, since the CGs will carry a part of the information and need to be as accurate and unambiguous as possible, what isn't given to every one. This while 2D games tend to rely on sprite, what limit the possibilities to effectively have a 100% accurate visual part.

 

[Belle]

Sometimes having little text about secondary characters' reactions, thoughts, moods are usefull.
"Anna remember that night with passion", "Arthur seems proud of his tool", "Emma is in a good mood today"... help to understand the characters without "reading their minds".

I disagree strongly. If a writer routinely reaches for that part of his/her toolbox, they don't really understand how to write characters well. What you describe is a pitch perfect example of telling instead of showing. You can have the MC think some of these things ("Emma's eyes become unfocused as soon as I mention that night, the left side of her mouth lifting so subtly that most people would never even notice. But I do. Seems like I'm not the only one relishing that memory." "It almost feels like Arthur is paying more attention to his own tool than to me." "Emma's eyes are practically sparkling today.") with far better results without having to break the story's perspective, and it's even better if you use your renders/drawings to illustrate these things.

Look, I get it. Most of the people writing stories for adult games are completely new to this, probably not having had to write fiction apart from school assignments before. It's easy to make fundamental, basic mistakes when you don't know what is supposed to work and what isn't. We all have to start somewhere.

But excusing those mistakes and arguing that they are actually a good thing is not the way to go. Yes, you can write good stories with an omniscient perspective, but there needs to be a genuine purpose behind it, especially in first-person omniscient perspective (one that is so rare in fiction that you'd be hard-pressed to find even a single example outside of VNs). If your character is a mind reader, then go right ahead! This perspective will enhance your story. If not, then take a long look at what you're actually trying to accomplish and see if there's not a better way to do it.

Most of all, read lots of books. I can't stress this enough. The more fiction you read, the more you will instinctually understand how to write and structure a story.

 

[woody554]

generally I think it should be avoided like the plague, but if you ABSOLUTELY need to reveal their thoughs, make them TALK it through with someone while the mc is eavesdropping. or make them write it into a diary which mc can find. or make them discuss it with a 3rd party, don't show it to player, and later make the 3rd party confess it to mc.

but even if you do one of those, try to be really sure it's increasing the tension instead of defusing it. create more questions, new secrets, new sources of anxiousness and danger. never ever simply answer what the player wants to know.

 

[Heroine Hunter X]

I have mixed feelings about seeing character thoughts beyond the player character and would say I lean towards not doing them. I would rather see how they feel about something, or pickup on clues from how they say or do things rather than be told. In some situations I don't care what they think and as a player it makes me more likely to hit that skip button. Kind of kills all aspects of mystery and suspense in most games I've encountered the practice, as they tell the player too much. Storytelling is tough, porn game or not, and the last thing games need is more "fluff" text in an otherwise visual experience. That being said, there is definitely situations where I've found it not only acceptable, but necessary, but it happened so few times that I can't think of an example off the top of my head. Probably why I lean away from them. Maybe it's a show, don't tell thing?

 

[Belle]

Maybe it's a show, don't tell thing?

The more I think about it, the more I feel like that might be the issue here.

Almost everyone has heard about the "show, don't tell" principle, but that doesn't mean we all understand what it actually means when we sit down and write. In fact, the "Emma is in a good mood today" line that was posted above is a textbook example of telling instead of showing, so it's worth looking a little closer at this particular example.

So, if the character Emma is in a good mood and your MC sees this, why should you avoid writing "Emma is in a good mood today"? Why is this telling instead of showing when you're clearly describing her mood?

It's quite simple, really. If you tell me that Emma is in a good mood, I'm going to ask: "how can you tell?" The description of her mood should implicitly answer that question. You're telling the reader that she is in a good mood, but it doesn't paint a picture in our minds. It says nothing about Emma as a character and leaves everything up to guesswork. The MC must be able to tell that she's in a good mood in some way. Is it because her eyes sparkle, as in my response above? Is it because she's almost skipping as she walks into the room? Is it because she just keeps smiling all the time, laughing at all your jokes? If those things are visible to the player through the renders, do you even need to explicitly point it out?

Let's consider another example:

John feels a growing sense of fear as he opens the door to the adjoining room.

Does this description make the scene stand out in your mind's eye? Do you implicitly understand what John's fear is like? How is he reacting to the fear? Is it even fear, or is he fooling himself into mistaking emotions for each other? The above is an example of telling, not showing. On a technical level, there is nothing wrong with it. However, it is flat and devoid of poetry, unable to conjure an image in the reader's mind.

Here is a different take on the same scene:

John's hand trembles as he reaches for the door to the adjoining room. His ears are pounding from his own heartbeat in the chamber's deathly quiet, but he swallows and closes his eyes as he steels his nerves for what he must do.

The text is longer, sure. That tends to happen when showing instead of telling. But it's also much better prose, building a visual image in the reader's mind in a way that the first version was unable to. We now understand John and his fears better because we get to experience it with him. As readers, we don't want to sit on the outside of a situation and hear someone describe events for us. We want to be there and feel them for ourselves. That's showing.

So what does this have to do with listening in on other characters' thoughts? Well, in a way, having their thoughts spelled out to us is the game telling us what they're feeling instead of letting us visualize it. It saps the scene of tension and presence, making us feel detached and distant.

Telling instead of showing is easy. Not only is it economical in terms of the length of your prose, allowing you to fit more events into a smaller space, but it's also incredibly straightforward. Everyone knows how to say that someone is afraid. It's a quite different challenge to describe what it feels like to experience fear. It is why the temptation to jump into another character's thoughts is so strong; after all, what easier way than this to give the player a complete understanding of your scene and its characters?

That is why this has to be taught. We desire to reach for the easy tools in our toolbox because all we can see is that scene on the horizon that we've been looking forward to writing so much. We want to push through this part so we can move on. Don't do yourself this disservice. Take a second look at your writing and ask yourself if any of it can be considered telling instead of showing. If it does, can you rewrite it to show instead?

 

[Heroine Hunter X]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like that might be the issue here.

Almost everyone has heard about the "show, don't tell" principle, but that doesn't mean we all understand what it actually means when we sit down and write. In fact, the "Emma is in a good mood today" line that was posted above is a textbook example of telling instead of showing, so it's worth looking a little closer at this particular example.

So, if the character Emma is in a good mood and your MC sees this, why should you avoid writing "Emma is in a good mood today"? Why is this telling instead of showing when you're clearly describing her mood?

It's quite simple, really. If you tell me that Emma is in a good mood, I'm going to ask: "how can you tell?" The description of her mood should implicitly answer that question. You're telling the reader that she is in a good mood, but it doesn't paint a picture in our minds. It says nothing about Emma as a character and leaves everything up to guesswork. The MC must be able to tell that she's in a good mood in some way. Is it because her eyes sparkle, as in my response above? Is it because she's almost skipping as she walks into the room? Is it because she just keeps smiling all the time, laughing at all your jokes? If those things are visible to the player through the renders, do you even need to explicitly point it out?

Let's consider another example:

John feels a growing sense of fear as he opens the door to the adjoining room.

Does this description make the scene stand out in your mind's eye? Do you implicitly understand what John's fear is like? How is he reacting to the fear? Is it even fear, or is he fooling himself into mistaking emotions for each other? The above is an example of telling, not showing. On a technical level, there is nothing wrong with it. However, it is flat and devoid of poetry, unable to conjure an image in the reader's mind.

Here is a different take on the same scene:

John's hand trembles as he reaches for the door to the adjoining room. His ears are pounding from his own heartbeat in the chamber's deathly quiet, but he swallows and closes his eyes as he steels his nerves for what he must do.

The text is longer, sure. That tends to happen when showing instead of telling. But it's also much better prose, building a visual image in the reader's mind in a way that the first version was unable to. We now understand John and his fears better because we get to experience it with him. As readers, we don't want to sit on the outside of a situation and hear someone describe events for us. We want to be there and feel them for ourselves. That's showing.

So what does this have to do with listening in on other characters' thoughts? Well, in a way, having their thoughts spelled out to us is the game telling us what they're feeling instead of letting us visualize it. It saps the scene of tension and presence, making us feel detached and distant.

Telling instead of showing is easy. Not only is it economical in terms of the length of your prose, allowing you to fit more events into a smaller space, but it's also incredibly straightforward. Everyone knows how to say that someone is afraid. It's a quite different challenge to describe what it feels like to experience fear. It is why the temptation to jump into another character's thoughts is so strong; after all, what easier way than this to give the player a complete understanding of your scene and its characters?

That is why this has to be taught. We desire to reach for the easy tools in our toolbox because all we can see is that scene on the horizon that we've been looking forward to writing so much. We want to push through this part so we can move on. Don't do yourself this disservice. Take a second look at your writing and ask yourself if any of it can be considered telling instead of showing. If it does, can you rewrite it to show instead?

Sums it up perfectly. The more I write and learn, the more I notice when this rule is broken. Stories read like lists of action rather than an experience when you strip away how we know someone is this way or that. It's the main reason why the very first thing I do when starting a new game (if in Ren'py) is to go into the settings and turn on "skip unseen text". It's not a matter of if I'll use it, but when. Belle, I appreciate you typing that all out! Right on the money.

 

[Adabelitoo]

As a dev and a player, the MC thinking is always okay. No questions allowed.

As a dev, I mostly use others character's thought because I don't feel that I've been clear/good enough to make the player understand where the story is going/how it's progressing. I don't think it's a bad tool at all, but I personally took it the point where I feel my story will be a train wreck if I don't do it. I'm totally on board for the "show don't tell" and I almost do a CG per dialogue line, but I really feel like my story would be a mess without showing what the girls think. I don't think I overuse it honestly, it's just that I would be a much better storyteller if I didn't use it at all. That's how I feel.

As a player, I really don't mind it. I won't think that the dev is trying to compensate for a bad story or that I wouldn't understand things if I can't know what other characters are thinking. It's no big deal at all. The only moment when it does becomes a thing is when it's overused even in absurd situations that makes my facepalm and question if I really want to keep playing that game, but it rarely happens.

 

[Heroine Hunter X]

As a dev and a player, the MC thinking is always okay. No questions allowed.

As a dev, I mostly use others character's thought because I don't feel that I've been clear/good enough to make the player understand where the story is going/how it's progressing. I don't think it's a bad tool at all, but I personally took it the point where I feel my story will be a train wreck if I don't do it. I'm totally on board for the "show don't tell" and I almost do a CG per dialogue line, but I really feel like my story would be a mess without showing what the girls think. I don't think I overuse it honestly, it's just that I would be a much better storyteller if I didn't use it at all. That's how I feel.

As a player, I really don't mind it. I won't think that the dev is trying to compensate for a bad story or that I wouldn't understand things if I can't know what other characters are thinking. It's no big deal at all. The only moment when it does becomes a thing is when it's overused even in absurd situations that makes my facepalm and question if I really want to keep playing that game, but it rarely happens.

Totally get it. Being a developer and writing the story is very hard work and they take an imminence amount of time and effort. I want to be clear that my agreeing with the previous good advice was in no way meant to be jab at people's abilities as storytellers. Sometimes writing advice comes across as harsh, but I think of it this way: if you ever played sports, your coach probably wasn't gentle about what they wanted from you as part of your personal growth, either. Some things are so often offended that many have very strong opinions about it. Yes, adding player thoughts that plainly state what's going on will make the plot more clear in your story, but that does not mean it makes the experience more enjoyable for the reader. The truth is, most readers can't identify what works and doesn't work about the way a story is written, but they for sure notice when something is off. Kind of like sloppy jump cuts and improperly framed angles in film. Viewers might not know whats wrong, but they know it isn't right. As writers, programmers, whatever, we should always strive to be better and produce the best content we can.

Then again, what do I know? Ready Player One is a very popular book and is very much "tell, don't show" story. Fun concept, but in my opinion not the best writing.

 

[Helmeted Smith]

If there's internal conflict, usually I am a fan of.

 

[Belle]

If there's internal conflict, usually I am a fan of.

Writers portray internal conflict all the time in fiction without actually jumping into the character's mind to do so. Don't reach for such easy excuses.

 

[Helmeted Smith]

Writers portray internal conflict all the time in fiction without actually jumping into the character's mind to do so. Don't reach for such easy excuses.

Of course, with book writers, that's the case.
But with visuals novels, the rules change a bit, as we have the advantage of images.
In the cases where I am to choose between narration and internal dialog, I'll go for the latter.
(not all visual novels encounter these situations)

EXAMPLE:
I can narrate the following image:


In the light of the evening sun, with trembling hands, she reaches for the MC's bla bla bla... 100 lines of how wet and hungry her pussy is, how his dick is standing tall in the light of the evening sun (most of this is repeated information already shown in the picture) and how her actions will inevitably kill the MC bla bla bla...

Sure it's fancy, but I prefer a more impactful and efficient way to convey the information, by writing a few direct lines of internal dialogue describing her conflict.

"This is wrong, but I cannot resist any longer. My hunger for him is too strong."
"This will definitely KILL him!"

It might be my lack of writing skills, a preference, the blood not reaching my upper head... I just do it this way.
And rules are meant to be broken anyway.

 

[Belle]

Of course, with book writers, that's the case.
But with visuals novels, the rules change a bit, as we have the advantage of images.
In the cases where I am to choose between narration and internal dialog, I'll go for the latter.
(not all visual novels encounter these situations)

EXAMPLE:
I can narrate the following image:
View attachment 1034264

In the light of the evening sun, with trembling hands, she reaches for the MC's bla bla bla... 100 lines of how wet and hungry her pussy is, how his dick is standing tall in the light of the evening sun (most of this is repeated information already shown in the image) and how her actions will inevitably kill the MC bla bla bla...

Sure it's fancy, but I prefer a more impactful and efficient way to convey the information, by writing a few direct lines of internal dialogue describing her conflict.

"This is wrong, but I cannot resist any longer. My hunger for him is too strong."
"This will definitely KILL him!"

It might be my lack of writing skills, a preference, the blood not reaching my upper head... I just do it this way.
And rules are meant to be broken anyway.

This is not an example of an omniscient perspective as far as I can tell. This is a new Point of View. It is perfectly fine to jump between POVs in a story. In fact, it's something I might do for my next game myself.

The problem mostly comes from when you're in a first-person perspective (which you are clearly not in the image you posted) and are somehow reading brief snippets of thoughts from other characters that your POV character does not have access to. This is usually done in situations that do not require it, making it jarring.

Jumping POVs can be a powerful technique as long as you don't do it constantly, all over the place. A lot of the most impactful and popular novels out there are like this, after all. In my opinion, erotica can really benefit from changing the POV occasionally. Just try to stick with your new POV for at least a little while when you do this.

 

[Helmeted Smith]

This is not an example of an omniscient perspective as far as I can tell. This is a new Point of View. It is perfectly fine to jump between POVs in a story. In fact, it's something I might do for my next game myself.

The problem mostly comes from when you're in a first-person perspective (which you are clearly not in the image you posted) and are somehow reading brief snippets of thoughts from other characters that your POV character does not have access to. This is usually done in situations that do not require it, making it jarring.

Jumping POVs can be a powerful technique as long as you don't do it constantly, all over the place. A lot of the most impactful and popular novels out there are like this, after all. In my opinion, erotica can really benefit from changing the POV occasionally. Just try to stick with your new POV for at least a little while when you do this.

Man, I am learning so much.
Thanks for the tips, I will definitely keep in mind when changing the POV. I mostly do it when I am trying to show a character's action or something related to the plot.

 

[Steve Carter]

Seeing a character's thoughts is like nails on a chalkboard for me. Show don't tell.

 

[Rafster]

This is an interesting topic to read, as I am developing my very own first game (I've been working the last 3 months on it but it's still very green). I only show MC's thoughts but besides that I avoid to show anyone else's thoughts.

 

[lovesky]

I think displaying thoughts is something that should only be done if it's important to the story.

 

[Staimh]

Characters thoughts and narrators are simply efficient ways of breaking the fourth wall.
It depends on the game and the developer's intention for the players experience.
Often used to get otherwise complicated plot scenarios across in a single paragraph.
Sometimes used to explain game mechanics (without or along wth sticking them on a help page).
Sometimes used to tell a joke or make a social/philosophical observation (not necessarily plot related).
So it can be useful and sensible but is not needed for many games.

 

[yihman1]

It depends

As for my personal preferences, I'd say it goes a little something like this:

3rd person game it's fine and sometimes good to see thoughts of not only the protagonist, but also other characters.

1st person game where the camera is stuck in the protagonist's eye most of the time... I want that persons thoughts, but not so much other people's thoughts if they are in the scene at the time. If the 1st person segment is broken to go to other people in 3rd person maybe it's okay to have thoughts then.

 

[FeropsisFenarue]

I hate seeing thoughts. MC's or other characters.

Some of it has to do with the fact that humans have a lot more complex thought process than just "Oh look, my son is sleeping naked, oh what a huge cock!". Now I immediately think that character is an airhead moron.

Other parts of it have to do with the fact the authors are shit at narration. You can explain a scene in text without giving us 'thoughts' at all. Let the reader parse out the thoughts.

Example of narration vs thought dump.

Thought : "Oh wow, my son has such a huge cock, who knew? Now I want it in me! Am I a terrible mother?"

Narration: Diane slowly crept into the room, nearly tripping on all the junk on the floor. She looked around for safe places to walk, tip toeing barefoot through the room, but the room is dark, so she moves slowly and deliberately. A soft sigh escapes her lips as she steps on something soft. Thankfully, its her son's shirt, and not a dirty cum rag. Next to the shirt, she finally spots what she has been looking for - his backpack. She slowly unzips the bag, reaches in, and pulls out the letter she asked him to retrieve from the mailbox. She breathes a sigh of relief upon checking the mail, finds it unopened. She clutches the letter in her left hand, and starts to look up from the backpack, when suddenly her son shifts position in his bed.

Diane sighs again, as she realizes he's still sleeping, but pauses when she realizes his shift in position has revealed the fact that he's been sleeping naked. She pauses, her heart racing now. Small bits of perspiration run down her cheek, as she finally makes up her mind. She reaches out to adjust the blanket to cover her naked son, and reveals a rather large cock, semi hard, now fully revealed for her to see. Its still dark, but she can judge the size of it. A small gasp of surprise escapes her mouth, which she quickly stifles by biting her lip. Despite the room being slightly cold, Diane is very warm now, and alarmed at her own response to her flesh and blood's semi-erect manhood, she drops the blanked back where it was, turns around, and starts walking back out of the room.

She pauses halfway to the door, however, lets out another sigh, and tip toes back to her son's bed, to lift up the blanket for another look, this time, not only taking in the sight of his cock, but his slender frame, his soft belly, the hair growing on his chest, his young but handsome face. She sets the blanket down again, composes herself, and tiptoes slowly out of the room, this time, not stopping halfway, but making it to the door, slowly opening it, and exiting the room.

Her heart is racing as she steps out into the hallway, her body warm and on high alert. She slowly, quietly, closes the door, and pauses for a few moments to catch her breath, wiping the perspiration off of her face with the sleeve of her pajama top. Her body is shaking and shivering, and it takes her another minute to finally compose herself enough to walk down the hallway to her own room, barely aware she's still clutching the important piece of mail in her left hand.

-------
Same conflict of emotions, but no need to brutally beat the reader/game player over the head that the mom might be down for some sexual escalation with her son. Let the reader decide/decrypt what the mom might be thinking, and allow your game to continue to build from there.

 

[Ceadmon]

Btw how do you display character thoughts? A different color or using quotes?