- May 1, 2017
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I like free roaming more because I like the freedom of focusing on the characters I like.
Do you prefer scene-based or free-roaming VNs? Why?
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- Aug 16, 2017
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This is a question that has plauged a few projects I've started/abandoned/gone nowhere with. To be honest, I prefer a free roam over scene to scene unless the scene to scene is done well. Examples of it done well are
As a Dev, free roam is preferable, but its hard. Especially so on a new project with limited content.
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,
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. There are countless other examples of it done poorly, 90% of the daz3d renpy 0.1 versions that plague the latest update page. As a Dev, free roam is preferable, but its hard. Especially so on a new project with limited content.
- If you make a gigantic free roam world for the player to play in, there will be fuck-all to do in 90% of the locations. The game inevitably becomes a scavenger hunt for content by the player. Is the next scene with the only current character in the game at the hospital? The parking lot? Or maybe the secret lab? Better just patrol each spot every day until I get a new scene.
- This is made worse by early releases of the game. As a dev you want to get what you're working on out there for feedback. But you've put 50 work hours into this goddamn game, only one character is kinda sorta finished. You intention may be for the player to practically trip over pussy as they explore the city, but until the final version the lack of content will make the game seem tedious to even travel through.
- A time or day system makes this problem even worse. If characters move locations based on date or time you've effectively doubled or tripled the number of pages the player goes to where absolutely nothing is happening.
- A linear game is so much easier to update. You just force a save at the end point of content and the player starts up where they left off with a new release. With an open world, god knows what the player has been doing up to that point. If you add events or characters to locations the player already explored, the easiest solution is often to just have the player restart the game.
- Like previous posters have mentioned, a free roam game makes it quite easy to make NPCs feel less like characters, like they have amnesia when you see them again. You can have 10 scenes where you assfuck the quiet library girl to a sloppy mess on the floor, but she will always have the same shy language from your first introduction. Where as in a linear game the writer has the freedom to alter characters and events to feel more realistic.
- The worst offender of this is when sexual actions are presented in a menu format. When a character spends all day every day in a single location, waiting for the player to show up and select a sexual activity from a drop-down menu. "Oh hey Player! No I won't let you fuck my butt, but you have enough relationship points to give you a handjob after watching me pee."
Generally speaking, The major problem of freeroam games are freeroam games on development. Or you have a changelog-walktrought about you can do in that iteration of the game, of you don't ever know if what you are making has a purpose. I will find that girl again? She will appear in other location at other time? Is going beyond this Love point any good on this version of the game? Or is the story over?
Between freeroam in development and VN in development, I more easily play a VN. Replaying a freeroam in development can be terrible.
Completed VNs and Freeroam are other things. Sadly, I din't play much of them. I find more entertaing the more freeroam the game has. Usually but, they require much more programming work for being well done, as well as good gameplay knowledge by the dev. So it's easier to find enjoyable VNs than well done Freeroams.
Between freeroam in development and VN in development, I more easily play a VN. Replaying a freeroam in development can be terrible.
Completed VNs and Freeroam are other things. Sadly, I din't play much of them. I find more entertaing the more freeroam the game has. Usually but, they require much more programming work for being well done, as well as good gameplay knowledge by the dev. So it's easier to find enjoyable VNs than well done Freeroams.
In the end, the point of a porn game is to get off.
I may get off because of a good story, but I'm not getting off by moving from room to room in the hope to somehow advance this story.
Let's face it, free roam / sandbox is horribly implemented in almost all these games. And if it were properly implemented, it would STILL defeat the purpose of getting off.
If we compare to, say, Fallout 4, there the purpose of the game is the enjoyment of the game itself, which means walking around and shooting at enemies. If any porn game would have a similar part of walking around and shooting people, and if it would be just as good as Fallout, it would STILL be a bad porn game, because there is too much going on between the "good stuff".
Don't get me wrong, I really like good stories, but a good story is supporting the porn part by making the girl more desirable. Without it, she would just be a pretty computer generated image, but with a good story she becomes someone we can care about (or get off on, as the case may be).
I may get off because of a good story, but I'm not getting off by moving from room to room in the hope to somehow advance this story.
Let's face it, free roam / sandbox is horribly implemented in almost all these games. And if it were properly implemented, it would STILL defeat the purpose of getting off.
If we compare to, say, Fallout 4, there the purpose of the game is the enjoyment of the game itself, which means walking around and shooting at enemies. If any porn game would have a similar part of walking around and shooting people, and if it would be just as good as Fallout, it would STILL be a bad porn game, because there is too much going on between the "good stuff".
Don't get me wrong, I really like good stories, but a good story is supporting the porn part by making the girl more desirable. Without it, she would just be a pretty computer generated image, but with a good story she becomes someone we can care about (or get off on, as the case may be).
The most important is a good and coherent story. The game should be Immersive. The characters reactions and behaviors should be "realistic".
It actually doesn't matter whether it is a free roaming game or a visual novel. They both have their pros and cons. VN are just easier to make than free roaming games. Next, everyone have different reasons to play these games, some play just for the sex scenes, others for the story, the gameplay, etc. It just depends of our preferences.
I tend to prefer free roaming and I don't mind the grinding mechanism because I am a gamer myself, when it's well done it is addictive, but it doesn't happen often.
It actually doesn't matter whether it is a free roaming game or a visual novel. They both have their pros and cons. VN are just easier to make than free roaming games. Next, everyone have different reasons to play these games, some play just for the sex scenes, others for the story, the gameplay, etc. It just depends of our preferences.
I tend to prefer free roaming and I don't mind the grinding mechanism because I am a gamer myself, when it's well done it is addictive, but it doesn't happen often.
Free-roaming, not up for lazy "stories" where the game handhold you from point a to point b. That's is for E rated games.
Linear is boring; no choices, no consequences, no effort, no challenge = no interest.
And like someone else said, I may want to focus on a given character or just complete a single character's story.
Linear is boring; no choices, no consequences, no effort, no challenge = no interest.
And like someone else said, I may want to focus on a given character or just complete a single character's story.
This is a huge problem for a lot of free roam games out there. It's even more frustrating if NPCs can also roam around to different locations either randomly or on a schedule. Not only do you end up wasting time having to visit every location every day, with a shifting or complicated schedule you might end up wasting time going to every location several times per day. She's at the pool at noon on Thursdays, but on Tuesdays she's at the park at noon, and on Saturday you'll only find her if you enter and exit the grocery store 3 times at noon while hopping on 1 foot and playing the banjo.
Man of the house does a decent job of resolving that problem by showing where all of the characters are on the map so you don't have to remember that your big sis is at the gym and your little sis is at the mall from 1-2pm or whatever.
I think VNs have an advantage from the player's perspective because they can be set up so the player is always doing something interesting. With a free roam game it can be frustrating to play if you're wandering around and most locations have nothing to do. Free roam games have the advantage of making it easier to have interesting scenes that are repeatable for people who like a longer game.
I prefer VN, because as previously said those games are to get off. To masturbate. To have fun with yourself.
While I appreciate games that have an actual interesting story as main plot while the sex scenes are still there, I find myself to not touch free-roam games anymore simply because they are stats grinds and what not with limited scenes/dialoges on a specific time, on a specific day. So it's not only a stat grind most of the times, it's also a grind of waking up, doing any activity that skips time, sleep, repeat. Until you arrive at a new scene, which is mostly just another pointless dialog or task to do, in order to gain a stat point.
I get it, there are free-roam games that are decent and where I even myself don't mind the free-roam such as DeLuca, but generally every dev contributing to this free-roam waste of time grind bullshit made me close games as soon as I see they're free-roam. I don't want to waste my time figuring out if a game is worth it by moving through rooms and having to find out what to do.
I want to open the games and most of the times just have my fun.
And when I open games downloaded from here to continue reading their story, then I want it to be without stress in a relaxed mood and relaxed game setting. Such as reading dialoge and once in a while having to make a choice.
While I appreciate games that have an actual interesting story as main plot while the sex scenes are still there, I find myself to not touch free-roam games anymore simply because they are stats grinds and what not with limited scenes/dialoges on a specific time, on a specific day. So it's not only a stat grind most of the times, it's also a grind of waking up, doing any activity that skips time, sleep, repeat. Until you arrive at a new scene, which is mostly just another pointless dialog or task to do, in order to gain a stat point.
I get it, there are free-roam games that are decent and where I even myself don't mind the free-roam such as DeLuca, but generally every dev contributing to this free-roam waste of time grind bullshit made me close games as soon as I see they're free-roam. I don't want to waste my time figuring out if a game is worth it by moving through rooms and having to find out what to do.
I want to open the games and most of the times just have my fun.
And when I open games downloaded from here to continue reading their story, then I want it to be without stress in a relaxed mood and relaxed game setting. Such as reading dialoge and once in a while having to make a choice.
- May 4, 2019
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The choice between scene-based or free-roaming VN's depends on the quality of the implementation, like many have mentioned before in this thread.
Types of games
That said every map you run around on can be seen as a special case of a list of menu choices. The list of story and choice heavy games is actualy more like this:
0.Short story, Screenplay, Novel - No choices
A lot of game writers would be better off writing a smaller and simpler game. Ren'py matches with this, because it feels like a short story engine, but would lead to chaos for a bigger project.
Immersiveness and control
On the other hand there is the immersiveness, control and believability aspect of a game. How much the player identifies with the protagonist is greatly enhanced by giving the player choices. It tailors the game to the players wishes and probably makes the story in it more believable and enjoyable, because it where his own choices that lead to that particular story.
Being able to avoid certain parts of a game like interaction with a fat chick and move on to other parts like interaction with a stacked MILF may also be beneficial because Pron games are not only played for the game itself.
Going wide or going deep
Having locations one can visit makes for a much more natural menu that a giant list of options. As a result free-roaming games are much wider in there choices than scene-based games and there should be much more going on at the same time then in a scene-based game. The interaction in a scene-based deep game with a character should be more complicated and longer then a free-roaming game. The interaction in free-roaming wider game should be simpler and shorter per person, but you should have to deal with more people.
The meaning of stats
The believability of the characters can be greatly influenced by the stats of the player. Having 6 instead of 5 in your apple stat probably does not make for a believable change in a girls behavior, having 6 instead of 5 in your fame stat might well be. In a scene-based game stats are generally hidden while in a free-roaming game stats are generally visible. It would be better if game writers had more psychological insight and create believable stats, but a second best would be having no stats exept for story progress as it generally leads to a grind in a non fun sub game.
The meaning of time
A timed interaction may make a game more believable, as it could convey that the people have there own motives and tasks. Unfortunately most implementations do none of that and only serve to complicate the game. A pron game can be about achievement, but it generally isn't, so this should not be done.
Story types
Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey lends itself more to a free-reaming game as it's basically a cumming of age story on steroids. All the things to do in a free-roaming world make for a more believable transformation into a man or at least a more powerfull emancipated being.
Romantic love stories focus on
Types of games
That said every map you run around on can be seen as a special case of a list of menu choices. The list of story and choice heavy games is actualy more like this:
0.Short story, Screenplay, Novel - No choices
- Gamebook - Links for choices
- Interactive Fiction - Menu's for choices
- Visual Novel - Menu's for choices
- Point and click adventure - Menu's for choices and locations with items and interaction points
- JRPG - Menu's for choices and maps with items and interaction points
- 3D game - Menu's for choices and 3D world with items and interaction points
A lot of game writers would be better off writing a smaller and simpler game. Ren'py matches with this, because it feels like a short story engine, but would lead to chaos for a bigger project.
Immersiveness and control
On the other hand there is the immersiveness, control and believability aspect of a game. How much the player identifies with the protagonist is greatly enhanced by giving the player choices. It tailors the game to the players wishes and probably makes the story in it more believable and enjoyable, because it where his own choices that lead to that particular story.
Being able to avoid certain parts of a game like interaction with a fat chick and move on to other parts like interaction with a stacked MILF may also be beneficial because Pron games are not only played for the game itself.
Going wide or going deep
Having locations one can visit makes for a much more natural menu that a giant list of options. As a result free-roaming games are much wider in there choices than scene-based games and there should be much more going on at the same time then in a scene-based game. The interaction in a scene-based deep game with a character should be more complicated and longer then a free-roaming game. The interaction in free-roaming wider game should be simpler and shorter per person, but you should have to deal with more people.
The meaning of stats
The believability of the characters can be greatly influenced by the stats of the player. Having 6 instead of 5 in your apple stat probably does not make for a believable change in a girls behavior, having 6 instead of 5 in your fame stat might well be. In a scene-based game stats are generally hidden while in a free-roaming game stats are generally visible. It would be better if game writers had more psychological insight and create believable stats, but a second best would be having no stats exept for story progress as it generally leads to a grind in a non fun sub game.
The meaning of time
A timed interaction may make a game more believable, as it could convey that the people have there own motives and tasks. Unfortunately most implementations do none of that and only serve to complicate the game. A pron game can be about achievement, but it generally isn't, so this should not be done.
Story types
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Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey lends itself more to a free-reaming game as it's basically a cumming of age story on steroids. All the things to do in a free-roaming world make for a more believable transformation into a man or at least a more powerfull emancipated being.
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Romantic love stories focus on
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,
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, and the affectionate romantic involvement of the main characters and the journey that their love takes them through
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,
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or
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. In pron games it is more probable that it takes them to lust and corruption, but in the story world that's the same thing. Real word opportunity, nihilism/hedonism and alcohol/drugs make for little story. This naturally matches more with a scene-based game as one can go deep into the story.
- Nov 3, 2017
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Open-world (Glassix) > Points-based semi-linear (GGGB, AWAM) > Branching paths > Kinetic novel. I put a premium on player agency and I actually don't just want to read, read, read for hours so some padding is welcome.
- Apr 18, 2019
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A mix of both. Pure freedom can't hold a story together, while a purely kinetic can go wrong as well. A visual novel with branches and choices works best and sometimes even freeroaming can fit in if done right. Sadly many games overdo the freeroaming thing completely and I as the player lose connection to the game's characters and story. So I think visual "kinetic" novels with branches works best, but I played a few with "light freeroaming" (or should I call it "directed freeroaming"?), that didn't hurt the game.
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- Sep 18, 2017
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VNs, because I hate fucking randomly running around to find the next Scene. I play these Games for the Story and not for the Sex Scenes. I don't want fucking shitty Mini-Games or crap like that, I just want to experience a good Story with some choices.
I really dislike free roaming games
I don't want to mess around with figuring out where characters are at what time or spend any energy on annoying tasks like taking the character to work or to the gym.
If the character can choose between working out and going to work, just ask, "do you go to a) work or b) the gym?" I really hate having to navigate some stupid map with only 5 locations where you have to find what to click on to move the story forward. I don't need a visual map to decide between the gym, home, the office, the mall, and the park. Because those are the only locations that are ever in these games. Oh great, I get to go to the mall again and look at the same list of 4 items to see if there is anything different to do this time!! If I do this every day, maybe on day 21 I'll get a chance at a scene.
Another thing I hate is having to navigate around the house. Finding where to click to go forwards, backwards, to open or close doors. Feeling the need to go to every room at every hour to learn when the game characters are in various locations.
It's gotten to the point where I won't play any game that has any navigation aspect... I find it completely uninteresting and a waste of time.
I don't want to mess around with figuring out where characters are at what time or spend any energy on annoying tasks like taking the character to work or to the gym.
If the character can choose between working out and going to work, just ask, "do you go to a) work or b) the gym?" I really hate having to navigate some stupid map with only 5 locations where you have to find what to click on to move the story forward. I don't need a visual map to decide between the gym, home, the office, the mall, and the park. Because those are the only locations that are ever in these games. Oh great, I get to go to the mall again and look at the same list of 4 items to see if there is anything different to do this time!! If I do this every day, maybe on day 21 I'll get a chance at a scene.
Another thing I hate is having to navigate around the house. Finding where to click to go forwards, backwards, to open or close doors. Feeling the need to go to every room at every hour to learn when the game characters are in various locations.
It's gotten to the point where I won't play any game that has any navigation aspect... I find it completely uninteresting and a waste of time.
- May 9, 2019
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The underlying situation is not free roaming vs scene based: it is the story.
What ends up going on is like this. Free roaming is easier to use when the story is an accumulation of single routes for each character. You do what you want and you are done. Scene based, on the other hand, works better when the story is more complex and you cannot simply do whatever you want, you need a very specific order of events, so that including free roaming becomes just a boring waste of time, as you need event x before event y.
This leads to the simple resolution that event based end up being better, not by construction, but by correlation. It is harder to make simple story lines that can be done in any order a better story than a cohesive series of events that are more than the sum of its parts, as you would do for a novel in which a lot of things are happening at the same time and characters are not simply waiting for MC to advance the story.
It is as simple as that.
What ends up going on is like this. Free roaming is easier to use when the story is an accumulation of single routes for each character. You do what you want and you are done. Scene based, on the other hand, works better when the story is more complex and you cannot simply do whatever you want, you need a very specific order of events, so that including free roaming becomes just a boring waste of time, as you need event x before event y.
This leads to the simple resolution that event based end up being better, not by construction, but by correlation. It is harder to make simple story lines that can be done in any order a better story than a cohesive series of events that are more than the sum of its parts, as you would do for a novel in which a lot of things are happening at the same time and characters are not simply waiting for MC to advance the story.
It is as simple as that.
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- May 4, 2019
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Story theory
Using the theory behind screenplay writing I come to a similar conclusion.
- A story revolves around Conflict otherwise there is nothing to tell.
- A story firstly consists of Plot, Characters and Dialog, secondly the Action of the Scenes happens on Locations and Props have a story function like a
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A lot of time a free roaming game focuses on the mechanics and locations instead of the conflict of the story. That makes them Transactional e.a. slay n dragons for x gold to buy 1 love potion to trade to girl for love.
A free roaming game leans towards chess, witch is all mechanics. Chess a formal system where the rules are clear and the steps are small and simple. Feelings like surprise, triumph and defeat come after many steps are combined into a strategy, but do you play chess for sex?
Complex seduction
The conflict in a romantic story is often about transcending boundaries and getting in realizing feeling. In pron this is taken a step further into
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and
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as it is less limited by moral and there is a higher dopamine payoff. Leading people astray or having their feelings overwhelm them into action is much more nuanced and complex then a simple, tit for that. While the Plot, Characters, Location and Props may still be the same, the dialog and imagery should be more sophisticated, because it deals with the vagaries of life.
- May 9, 2019
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This particular point is what I am always asking about. There a few examples in this thread, like My New Family that have absolutely no conflict. I cannot get interested in a story in which everything is sunshine and unicorns. As I always say to those that fail to see how important conflict is: there is a reason why stories end with "and they live happily ever after".