Does story really matter in an adult VN when it comes to making money on Patreon and alike?

[♍VoidTraveler]

I think it's important to keep in mind that niches exist. When we talk about Story, then it being relevant or not isn't even an issue limited to adult games. John Carmack (Creator of Doom) once said about video games that "Story in a game is like story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important."
Now, what's funny here is that he's drawing the connection to porn (albeit in movie form) and now here we are and talking about the relevance of story in porn games!

Also when it comes to "good writing", that by itself is such a hard to define term, because the standard for good writing varies so much. I read a lot of Light Novels, in other words, something that's purely written, so only the writing can matter. And while fun, a lot of them aren't exactly well-written and it kind of depends on what standards you apply. When I discuss "good writing" with some other people, it very often comes down to the their absolute minimum acceptable level of writing being Dostojewski. Well yeah, I don't think you will find writers on that caliber writing adult games. Although I somehow doubt that is the level of writing the other posters here refer to hahaha.
Anyways, just wanted to point out that video games and "good writing" are already at odds even outside of adult games.

When it comes to the big adult games making like 10k/month, they are usually games focusing on appealing to as many people as possible. Each girl may not be particularly well-written, but there exists an interesting girl for nearly everyone. It's difficult to put as much writing effort into each character, when you have a huge cast.

On the other hand, I see story focused games more as a niche - one where I personally also belong to. And I think there are some creators who show that it is indeed possible to create a monetary successful game in this niche. I define monetary successful here as being able to go fulltime on your game. The most popular one probably being Sierra Lee. I hope that I can also count myself among there before the year is over.

Of course, it being a niche also means that a lot of people will say that story is not that important, and they wouldn't be incorrect with that. If the majority of people would find story and "good writing" that important, then story focused adult games wouldn't be a niche.

Your game had been on my radar for a long time now btw, still waiting for at least half-way to 1.0 though, to really give it a spin.
Hopefully i won't be disappointed when the time comes, since it does look promising.

 

[anne O'nymous]

They have more to think about than making a good story, because that doesnt directly translate to being profitable.

Even bad stories are rarely profitable, so...

I think the core issue is that if writing is good, people are afraid to read it, they will think "oh its too heavy"

If the writing is good, it's not too heavy. And if it's too heavy, then the writing is bad, whatever can be its other qualities.

Good writing isn't just about "having a story", or "having character with their own personality". This make the writing be above the average, nothing more. And even less than that is it about using academic English (or whatever language used to write the story).
Before everything else, good writing is about the pace of the story, and the rhythm of the dialog. Everything should flow like a peaceful river ; whatever how many text there's to read, you advance without even noticing it. And it's too rarely the case on the scene, where too many stories looks more like Colorado rapids ; you hit each line of text like the water hit every rocks. Then yes, it will feel heavy, because it will be exhausting.

It's also about the abilities to let the reader understand what isn't obviously said, and therefore have a glance at the future, without being sure that he understood correctly. Like by example Triple Ex, where the sister is expected to be pregnant, but only because she have what looks like morning sickness. At no time it is said that she's pregnant, nor even that she effectively have morning sickness. Instead of abruptly telling the player that she's pregnant, the game show us what clearly looks like the early signs of pregnancy.
When people say, "show, don't tell", they don't just refer to the visual part, it also apply to the writing. Whatever if the reader guess right or not, nothing should appear from nowhere. There should always have signs of it visible in the story. This even if it's only when it become obvious, or when it's finally said, that the reader will notice those signs.

or something and they refuse to be introspective and face aspects of themselves which they may or may not like.

What can happen even with very bad writing. It will happen less often in this case, because the writing can be so bad that it become ridiculous, but it's an issue related to the context, not to the writing. Look at all the people saying that they don't want to play corruption games, because they feel bad in such role. Yet, there's really few corruption games that are effectively well written.

 

[jamdan]

I think you have to separate "story" from "writing" and "plot".

Writing is self-explanatory. The spelling, grammar and general flow of the writing.

Story is about what happens in the game. The mom and son have sex.

Plot is about why what happens in the game happens. Why did the mom and son have sex?

Some games have terrible writing, but most are passable for an amateur who likely doesn't follow any guidelines or have any knowledge of writing beyond school.

All games, technically, have a story. Even those standard harem incest games. They just don't have much depth.

But hardly any game has a plausible plot. Obviously you have tons of porn logic, but the "why did mom decide to bang her son...oh she saw his dick once!" is a stupid and dumb "plot" to say the least.

And how do you get a good plot? Conflict. No, I'm not talking about NTR, but for a plot to develop and characters to grow, there needs to be conflict. To make the characters develop, which will impact the plot, which will impact the story. Very few if any games follow a storytelling guideline, like "save the cat". And even fewer properly edit, draft and outline. Which leads to tons of story/character inconsistencies and plot holes.

But I think the main thing that impacts whether or not a game is popular is the fetish/sexual content. There are games that have terrible stories/plots, yet are popular. Games that have bad art, or even no art, and are popular. And some games have bad writing and art, and are popular. So, why are these games poplar? They have X fetish that is. A lot of the most popular games are quantity over quality.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

The gameplay loop is learning the npc routine and exploit it to get your conquest.

Funny thing, what you described is still a story-focused game. It's just a story you want to have a lot of control over (and therefore a lot of variability). So you do want a story in your porn game. Just not a story that railroads you.

A game without a story would be, as a classical example, sexonix. Just a puzzle you solve to reveal a saucy picture. Or some sort of "sexing simulator". You know, where the whole gameplay is that a girl lies before you and you shove sex toys into different spots to produce desired animations. Heck, even in this case the game can borrow a story from external source by replacing a generic anime girl with, say, Raven. (This is what "parody" games do, they are just porn fanfics, gamified)

 

[Deleted member 229118]

Funny thing, what you described is still a story-focused game. It's just a story you want to have a lot of control over (and therefore a lot of variability). So you do want a story in your porn game. Just not a story that railroads you.

The question was:

Does story really matter in an adult VN when it comes to making money on Patreon and alike?

The answer to that is no.
Because idiots will pay crappy games no matter how lame the story.
Standerds are dead.
Early access is prove of that.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

The way I see it almost all adult game stories suck, I've played thousands of them and I couldn't put any of their stories above any non-adult game I've played. Some bigger japanese games get close, but they still don't manage to reach the same level of quality and the sex content tends to derail the story frequently.

Some people love to claim that story is what matters but let's be honest it isn't, when people talk about story in adult games they just mean decent pacing and buildup applied around the adult content, almost everything else is excusable.

That's why these games exist in the first place, if you have something that isn't good enough to stand on its own try adding some tits and people will click on it.

We play these games to get hot. Story is for the most part just candy.

 

[♍VoidTraveler]

I play these games to get hot. Story is for the most part just candy.

Fixed it for ya.

 

[obibobi]

Change story for writing and yes, it's critical, games with beautiful renders and animated sex scenes lay by the way side if the writing is bad, could have my most fav fetishes, doesn't matter.

Good writing is essential for making you care about what's going on otherwise you may as well just be watching an animated loop. Look at the top games and they may never be award winning fiction, but they can string a sentence together to make you care.

Edit: There will be exceptions, some games gained popularity when standards where much lower.

The aim of most of these games is to be erotic and good writing enhances that, bad writing makes my eyes glaze over and quit, I don't care about reaching a sex scene, I'm not invested.

 

[woody554]

And absolutely none of them is making money (I mean effectively more than 1K/month). While some can be really average, there isn't a single successful adult game creator who's making a generic game. Some of those games can feel generic, but they are the originals, not one of the many copies.

this is the only part I don't agree with as all popular games I've seens are absolutely generic. and none of the ones aiming for originality pull crowds.

but maybe this is just a matter of definition, semantics. I see games like summertime saga, wvm, bb etc sitting right in the middle of generic city. there's absolutely nothing original in any of them. which I believe is one of the reasons they succeeded. originality tends to be for elitists, and they're always a marginal audience. they might be right about taste, but they're a minority.

 

[anne O'nymous]

this is the only part I don't agree with as all popular games I've seens are absolutely generic. and none of the ones aiming for originality pull crowds.

but maybe this is just a matter of definition, semantics. [...]

It's more a matter of meaning.
By "original" I wasn't referring to the originality of the story, but to the fact that it was the first game with this story. Like by example Dating my Daughter, that is nowhere near to be an original story, but was the first "daddy will bang his long time lost daughter" story and have been copied many times.

 

[OsamiWorks]

♍VoidTraveler MarshmallowCasserole anne O'nymous

I still stand by my statement because I truly believe people wont challenge themselves and seek out better writing. They still arent going too even if I say all this. Things that would develop them as a person and make them think new things, consider concepts we dont have words for yet, or sympathize and feel something. Its mentally taxing process, and it takes time to come to terms with those things and decide what you actually believe. People not only avoid it but dont even comprehend it when they see it, its like the themes for them arent obvious even after being spoon fed the experience. There is more im not including and I know all of that is a bias itself, but what comes up during critical thinking is what I value in writing. I'm pretty flexible with it imo and it can include what youre all saying plus some, but its proven to not be valuable, otherwise being an author would be a more viable career in america, and writing wouldnt be some skill tacked onto resumes by people that are iffy with the line edits on good days

 

[Impious Monk]

This thread has 81K views and 72 pages in the last year. There is at least a portion of the adult gaming community which actively seeks out good stories.

https://f95zone.to/threads/story-first-games.86340/

 

[Deleted member 1957140]

Ok, now it's clear that you're either just projecting your thoughts, or talking based on a really low sample of games, but absolutely not talking about the reality.

You are definitely a very knowledgeable hermit with deep understanding and experience about each and every popular creator and their earnings. So I truly can't protest even when you clearly implied that I'm talking out of my ass. I'm just a regular adult VN gamer who clicks on games that look good but if the story and characters are stale then I simply move on. Sometimes I'd return after a long time only cause by then it'll have more of great CGs/animations and no matter how bad the overall experience is, those are good for a specific purpose and that's why most people are here. But don't think that I only click on good looking games, I've played many with terrible graphics or at least where graphics was bare minimum and wasn't the main focus. I've enjoyed quite a few games like that. But I think I'll have to name some games or it'll trigger your big brain so I'll try; even though I don't keep a list like a lot of people. Let's see. Terminus Reach: Sentinel and most of other Talothral games, Wicked Choices, Blooming Love, Dreaming of Dana, My new roommate. I can name a lot more but I'll have to search.

While browsing all these sorts of games, often times I check to see how much the dev is making even if I don't like them at all. During the first rise of BADIK, a lot of similar themed games came out that made 1-15K+ in a very short time. College Kings is a big example (I remember seeing 15K+ but now it's hidden and probably a lot lower). Some of them are still here and new ones keep popping up with school setting from time to time but I think by now people are quite overfed with that theme. Your argument about copying popular themes and when comes to their monetary success saying "absolutely none of them is making money" is something I cannot agree with at all even though I know you may as well be Stephen Hawking who invented time itself(Joke) when it comes to lewd game revenue research/knowledge.

Now granted that a lot of these games lost their initial fanbase and probably also their initial high income due to people coming to their senses or whatever other reasons; but I stay adamant in my comment that those who play the system just for money and not for the love of art or creation; can easily make and have made upwards of 5K and above in a very short time.

It only leaves one extra point that I have to make. A lot of Devs that may have not made big bucks with their initial game because it wasn't good in certain aspects or whatever; instead of making a better experience and good characters/story, they have opted to solely focus on the visual aspect. Just look at Daniels K. Again I'll stress as much as I can that I have nothing against any of these devs. What incentive do they have when people throw money at their feet just for good renders even if the characters themselves in them are just YUK personality wise and easily forgettable! I'm guessing you need more example cause that is just one sample size and makes me look like the biggest dummy on earth. Well fine, I'll do it. Give me a minute although now I feel like that sentence is redundant.

Lets see. You've mentioned WVM yourself. I know it's the first game from the Dev but made massive amount(I remember seeing 25K+) in a very short time. Then look at "Helping the hotties" or Red falls. The first game was well, I've played it once and I have no recollection because that's how generic and forgettable it was. But the second game is a visual marvel. I don't know if it's the Devs or Patreon is hiding their numbers but I clearly remember seeing 7K+ but I also clearly remember that after the first game it was just around or below 1K. So the new 5-6K+ income is from the 2nd one alone. Dev of "Girl House" and before that "My cute roommate 1 & 2". I'm sure they make over 5K. Again it's hidden and I don't know if they show up in your charts; you know things better here. A very disappointing and Hurtful to say this name but Lewdlad. The first game was so good. But the second one is too focused on visuals and everything else has taken a back seat. A 3.5 star rating reflects that. But only you know if his current earning is a lot more than what he had after his first game or is it suffering. I'm just an ignorant nobody but I think he is doing pretty good.

You've mentioned DMD. I had first played Melody from that Dev and remember quite liking it. The first season of DMD was quite good too and many like the 2nd season but I didn't. Now it's pure trash. Story and characters are all wiped out of existence to include as many fetishes as possible even though it makes no sense. But what about the new game Sunshine Love. It only has one good thing: Renders. But even that's only half good cause they are using the same 3 expressions that I had seen first time in Melody about 5 years ago. My eyes just burn to look at the expressions no matter if it's a 240p render or 8K render down-scaled to fit a 1080p game engine or whatever aspect ratio they are using. I think what they are earning from Petreon and SS can be considered massive. It's not just about what they made at their very first six months in this platform of adult VNs; but it's more about how they have evolved and how a "massive"(trigger warning) amount of people keep supporting them for years with "massive"(ultra trigger warning) amounts.

Those who are here only for the money clearly notice all of these. Even if 5K means like bare minimum to you, for a lot of people, that is significant. And no matter where you live and how costly it is to maintain a life there; when you earn that much; a certain level of quality(not only for visuals) is expected. Say that 5K is not massive to all those honest creators who are pouring their hearts out to make a game with genuine intention of original concept(But according to you, everything is original) for the sake of just creating and sharing their work. A lot of devs like that who are stuck below 1K for years will beg to differ with you. They may not have the best setup, live in unfavorable conditions to make games, can't afford high quality assets or their GPU simply fails to render good shit. They may live in places where 5K is a lot but getting to that number is a lot harder than people who started making 4K-8K render from get go cause they are privileged to belong to places where 5K is bare minimum to live in as you put it. Yes, it is a privilege. But instead of doing something great with that, they just follow what EA and recently Marvel and Disney are doing. Put lowest effort that generates the best return.

 

[anne O'nymous]

You are definitely a very knowledgeable hermit with deep understanding and experience about [...]

Instead of being butthurt and trying to find the best possible passive-aggressive way to answer, you should have past this time looking at the substance of my post.

Just look at Daniels K. Again I'll stress as much as I can that I have nothing against any of these devs. What incentive do they have when people throw money at their feet just for good renders even if the characters themselves in them are just YUK personality wise and easily forgettable!

Like I said, most people here are just really bad at judging renders quality. Daniels K.'s ones stand on the average ; what isn't a criticism, it's already better that half the actual production, and 3D rendering isn't as easy as some believe it.

But what point are you trying to make exactly ?
There's many games with better renders than that, and that are far to earn as much money as you claim. I gave some example already. By themselves, those games prove you wrong.
Therefore, are people subjugated by the CGs ? Yes, of course and obviously. It's 80% of what they'll have in front of them, and the CGs changes less often than the text. There's no surprise in the fact that it's what they'll notice, and remember, the most.
Are they also more influenced by the said CGs than by the story ? Again, yes, of course and obviously. Half, if not more, of the scene isn't native English speakers, and not much among them are fluent in English. It doesn't mean that they don't care about the story, just that they aren't sure if the writing flaws come from their poor English skills, or from the author itself. And like games tend to be released by updates, they don't necessarily remember the previous parts of the story, noticing less its possible inconstancy.

You found successful games that have average, or bad, writing, while having average, or better, CG, and conclude that the CGs are the reason why people support those games. But at what time have you took the others factors in count ?
You use as example Daniels K. who, despite his average renders and bad writing, have ~1,200 patrons. Good. But don't you think that having already seven finished games, two having been finished before he opened his Patreon page, the third being in progress at this time, can also be an important factor ? Because, well, in the case of Daniels K., it is an important factor.
Same could be said for Icstor, who reached the top because he was a well known creator who suddenly decided to drop RPG Maker in favor of Ren'Py. He changed nothing, having the same structure for his story, the same average level for his CGs and writing. It's just that he was known, had already some finished games, and decided to finally use a game engine made for the kind of game he was doing.

And at the opposite of the spectrum, you've Braindrop, who already had ~1,700 patrons one month after the first release of his game with (at this time, perhaps his reworking will change that) below average CGs and writing. Suddenly, people not only don't care about the writing, they also don't care about the CGs. What left only two things to the game.
It have sex right from the start, and its sex scenes aren't just thrown randomly, they appear, naturally, through the progression of the story. It's (so far) a heavy, poor, and badly wrote story that wouldn't works without Deus Ex Machina move to solve the big mystery of the day, but it's a story. What suddenly make all your argumentation fall. People support WVM because they partly care about the story ; it's just that they don't care about its quality.

If, effectively, people over judge the CGs quality and, for new games, have a clear preference for 3D renders over 2D, or even real time 3D, it's not what make them effectively support an author. And it's not either the fast fap approach. No pure fuck feast games achieved to effectively be as successful than games like WVM. No, what interest them is when a game achieve a not too bad compromise between the three. It have 3D CGs, a story and a lot of sex. You could also add a fourth factor, since if you want to have a chance to succeed you also need to use Ren'Py.

Then look at "Helping the hotties" or Red falls. [...] But the second game is a visual marvel.

Helping the hotties have good looking CGs, probably thanks to the post works, but still stand on the average in terms of renders.

A very disappointing and Hurtful to say this name but Lewdlad. The first game was so good. But the second one is too focused on visuals and everything else has taken a back seat.

No, Dreams of Desire wasn't "so good". I haven't played the redone version released last year, so it can have changed, but it have plot holes (regarding the father by example), average renders (that were good for this time), and is full of not kept promises. Dreams of Desire feel "so good" in our memory, because he was one of the first, what is different.
If Midnight Paradise is a deception, it's mostly because the scene evolved, but not Lewdlab. Because there's really not much difference between the twos. You don't remember the flaws of the stories, because at this time there weren't much "story driven" games. The concurrent at this time was games like Dating my Daughter, Big Brother, The Twist, Dreaming of Dana, and obviously Summertime Saga. Dreams of Desire was the only good (at this time) game built around a story, and almost the only game like that.

But only you know if his current earning is a lot more than what he had after his first game or is it suffering. I'm just an ignorant nobody but I think he is doing pretty good.

I gave the link, you're ignorant just because you want it. And yes he suffered, passing from ~4,700 patrons when he finished Dreams of Desire, to ~2,000 ones now. The biggest part of the drop being in 2019, when his second game crossed the (r)evolution that hit the scene.

You've mentioned DMD. [...] I think what they are earning from Petreon and SS can be considered massive.

It's "massive" in regard of one's salary, but nothing in regard of the successful games. The estimation is ~$11K/month, what is far from the more than 25K/month he was making before Patreon's ban. MrDots used to be one of the three most successful, with Lewdlab and DarkCookie, and now stand in the middle with Lewdlab, for the same reason ; he didn't really evolved, while the scene did.
As for Dating my Daughter by itself, the game died when Patreon hammer hit it. MrDots apparently don't want to drop it (what I understand, it's his first baby), but in the same time he can't effectively continue it. The thread is probably deeply buried now, but he can continue the game thanks to Patreon courtesy... to the sole condition that he never talk about it, and have a "front game" as game officially funded through Patreon ; devs, don't try this, Patreon will never ever agree to such conditions nowadays.
This make just impossible to seriously continue working on Dating my Daughter. He and his team have twice more works, while having twice less patrons (and so income).

It's not just about what they made at their very first six months in this platform of adult VNs; but it's more about how they have evolved and how a "massive"(trigger warning) amount of people keep supporting them for years with "massive"(ultra trigger warning) amounts.

And you still continue to ignore the important points when it come to spend money. There's three reasons why people pledge for a game, each patron falling in one of them.
Firstly there's effectively the fact that you like the game so far. Here, yes, you can possibly say that "this person" like it for a bad reason. At least you can tell it if you know that he pledge because he like the game, as well as why he like the game.
Secondly, there's the fact that the author is reliable. It's the case for Daniels K. Whatever the effective quality of his games, people know that it will be finished, and like he's far to be a newcomer, well, "I'll give him the dime I was sparing".
Thirdly, such pledge fall under the "impulsive purchase" category. You enjoyed playing the last update, and pledge for this sole reason. Exactly like you'll buy this piece of crap because you found it funny. And like pledges are automatic, you'll continue to pledge without really remembering the reason why you did it ; "I decided to pledge, I surely had a good reason for that".

You base all your analyze on the fact that every patron fall under the first category, while it's more probable that the majority fall under the last one. Icstor still have ~3,400 patrons, and regularly have new ones, while not having gave a sign of life on Patreon since a bit more than 8 months.

Even if 5K means like bare minimum to you, for a lot of people, that is significant.

It doesn't means like bare minimum to me, it is bare minimum when you live in a Western country.
It's not a net income, it's a raw one. This mean that, once all the mandatory expenses (like health insurance) are covered, you'll only have 2.5K. It's a good income by itself, but you'll have to spend a part to cover the cost of your game, and nowadays, having one, when not more, computer working 24/24 is not cheap. Without counting the fact that you'll blow up one time to time, the assets you need to buy, and all the extra cost that you wouldn't have if you weren't working on your game. In the end, once you've payed everything, the 5K your earned looks more like less than 2K, what mean that you're not far to minimal wage in most of Western countries.
And this is for people who are working alone. As I said, MrDots isn't working alone, there's a team behind this name, same for lewdlab if I remember correctly. So, the estimated ~10K/month earned by the Patreon account have to be split between each member of the team. While they can seem to be wealthy when you look at the numbers on Patreon, they both are at minimal wage, if not below it.

Of course, this don't apply to all of them. Braindrop is working alone and making a good income, same for Icstor. But limiting to Patreon, among the ~200 creators who potentially earn more than 5K/month, half of them hide a team working on minimal wage, or below.

Say that 5K is not massive to all those honest creators who are pouring their hearts out to make a game with genuine intention of original concept(But according to you, everything is original) for the sake of just creating and sharing their work.

Many of them heard me say it way more than once, and mostly they tend to agree.
This doesn't mean that they don't dream to be the next Adeptus Steve, nor that they don't rage sometimes because Braindrop is making so much more with so much less efforts. It just mean that they live it, they know how they earn, and how much is still on their bank account once they paid all the expenses due to their game.
It's the difference between reading me saying that creators who earn 5K/month don't earn much if they live in a Western country, and translating this into "they deserve this money" like you just did.

 

[Deleted member 1957140]

Instead of being butthurt and trying to find the best possible passive-aggressive way to answer, you should have past this time looking at the substance of my post.

Wow, you must be super happy with yourself. I specially liked when you praised WVM's early story and called Dreams of Desire trash(I know you'll argue here that you didn't use those words but you kind of implied though). Don't even try to mention plot-holes. Also I never said that you said that they deserve the money; i just said that they make it. You aren't doing any better by putting words in my mouth or misinterpreting. But if you want to make a point then you have to mold the words in whatever fashion necessary I guess. And I've read your substance. I've already said that I'm talking from a very limited experience of an end user; not a pro like you. It's you who passive aggressively attacked me on your very first reply and now you are pinning it on me. I'm not faulting you for being a know-it-all or for showing off. Good for you. But I'll still take Dreams of Desire over WVM any day. And yeah, that Dev does not deserve the kind of money he makes no matter what magical storytelling hooked people in the first place. At least DoD had real magic and the brother-sister relationships were quite good that hold well even after 2 years.
I feel like I can't even talk to you about revenue cause you simply have way high standards. I wonder how the devs who make less than 1K for years are surviving. If you make more money then you'd buy higher end machine or buy expensive assets. But you are saying the opposite. Their expense rises with income; not the other way around. People with limited assets can still deliver good games even if their budgets are tight. I should have said that Devs who start with great graphics(Probably cause they already had a 2080ti or better), reach moderate goals like 1-2K faster than others. I know a lot of devs will be thrilled to reach that. Heck many feel fulfilled just at 500. I don't think they will quit soon cause they are spending 2-3K just on production and drowning in debt.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

I assume it must be rare that single devs can do everything.
Not everyone is a story writer.

No, Dreams of Desire wasn't "so good". I haven't played the redone version released last year, so it can have changed, but it have plot holes (regarding the father by example), average renders (that were good for this time), and is full of not kept promises. Dreams of Desire feel "so good" in our memory, because he was one of the first, what is different.
If Midnight Paradise is a deception, it's mostly because the scene evolved, but not Lewdlab. Because there's really not much difference between the twos. You don't remember the flaws of the stories, because at this time there weren't much "story driven" games. The concurrent at this time was games like Dating my Daughter, Big Brother, The Twist, Dreaming of Dana, and obviously Summertime Saga. Dreams of Desire was the only good (at this time) game built around a story, and almost the only game like that.

Dreams of Desire was like one of my first games.
There was much to like about it. For me, minus the weird paranormal stuff. I found that as a cheap mechanic to make women do things for you.
But overall, i thought this is a really great game. Humor, Incest, great characters.
I am not qualified to judge if it was technically good. To me it was.

Though i think stories are overrated. In the sense that yes, a story is important in what you like to convey. But i always thought of adult games as porn. In the end, its going to be sex. At least that what i think and also look for in a game.

There are some great stories in some of the games. Though it isn't the main seller to me. Rather its how the character are done. Are they likable? Are the unique? Are they over the top? You find a lot of that. Most games have women that seems to originate from a bimbo facility.
I like to see real people, with real proportion. Now, Dream of Desire had also pretty much over the top characters. Mom had huge knockers, and so the sister of mom. Though, i have to admit i loved mom. She looked great.

Though most are studios. I think the point i like to make is, that there are a bunch of people working on the same game. Then there are just individuals that create a game. And one person can not be good at everything.

Well, at least that is my take on that issue.
In the end, i play games that are not top-notch but rather underwhelming at times but where the story and the renders are great. Great in the sense that it gets me hot.

 

[moskyx]

Wow, you must be super happy with yourself. I specially liked when you praised WVM's early story and called Dreams of Desire trash(I know you'll argue here that you didn't use those words but you kind of implied though).

How about you relax a bit and maybe try to read what he actually says?

And at the opposite of the spectrum, you've Braindrop, who already had ~1,700 patrons one month after the first release of his game with (at this time, perhaps his reworking will change that) below average CGs and writing. Suddenly, people not only don't care about the writing, they also don't care about the CGs. What left only two things to the game.
It have sex right from the start, and its sex scenes aren't just thrown randomly, they appear, naturally, through the progression of the story. It's (so far) a heavy, poor, and badly wrote story that wouldn't works without Deus Ex Machina move to solve the big mystery of the day, but it's a story. What suddenly make all your argumentation fall. People support WVM because they partly care about the story ; it's just that they don't care about its quality.

I mean, the only positive thing he says about WVM's early story is that, at first, sex scenes appear naturally through the progression of the story. I don't quite agree with that statement but I fail to see how's that 'praising' when you read the rest of his comment. WVM does have a story, and some people claim to be hooked by it; it's a barebones one with over the top elements, but enough to keep things moving on for many players -as you said, the masses aren't exactly demanding.

Personally, I'd say that WVM's early story was indeed promising, with an unexplored setting (a basketball young prospect), some interesting characters (at first), and that Braindrop excelled at releasing meaty updates at an insanely quick pace. It had the university setting that many people seem to feel attracted to, harem and futa tag, and constant hints of incest down the road. The cheating factor was at first interesting too, until it became apparent that it won't have any impact on the story. Add the bandwagon effect and those were the key factors for his quick success, in my opinion.

Regarding Anne's 'amazing' data, is not that he's some kind of dark wizard, data is available to all of us at

You must be registered to see the links

. It's a useful and well-known tool to analyze how are adult gaming devs ACTUALLY doing. Way better than just posting random assumptions based on our limited experience and guts.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Wow, you must be super happy with yourself.

As happy than a 51yo guy with a job he like and that pay well, and two wonderful children can be, yeah.
But you, you don't seem happy with your life. Being so butthurt because someone do not agree with you on internet, is it really serious ?

I specially liked when you praised WVM's early story and called Dreams of Desire trash [...]

You mean, when I explicitly wrote that WVM was below average :

And at the opposite of the spectrum, you've Braindrop, who already had ~1,700 patrons one month after the first release of his game with (at this time, perhaps his reworking will change that) below average CGs and writing.

And that Dreams of Desire still had quality while not being as good as you remember:

No, Dreams of Desire wasn't "so good". I haven't played the redone version released last year, so it can have changed, but it have plot holes (regarding the father by example), average renders (that were good for this time), and is full of not kept promises. Dreams of Desire feel "so good" in our memory, because he was one of the first, what is different.

It's what you meant, right ? You just involuntarily inverted the game names when you wrote your sentence, then the rest of your post.

 

[Deleted member 1957140]

How about you relax a bit and maybe try to read what he actually says?

And how about you do the same. I didn't just talk about WVM. I specifically made a comparison between his remarks about 2 different games. Are you saying that WVM has better hooks than DoD? It had actual incest and not just tease. It had quite a few sex scenes in the beginning with side characters too. And although graphics is subjective, I think that game looked a lot better too.

You two are so focused on proving my "assumptions" wrong that neither of you spoke barely about the actual topic of the thread and dropped a bunch of data. I didn't know I had to be dead accurate about numbers to talk about a very basic subject.

 

[moskyx]

And how about you do the same. I didn't just talk about WVM. I specifically made a comparison between his remarks about 2 different games. Are you saying that WVM has better hooks than DoD? It had actual incest and not just tease. It had quite a few sex scenes in the beginning with side characters too. And although graphics is subjective, I think that game looked a lot better too.

You two are so focused on proving my "assumptions" wrong that neither of you spoke barely about the actual topic of the thread and dropped a bunch of data. I didn't know I had to be dead accurate about numbers to talk about a very basic subject.

I don't want to prove your assumptions wrong, I even said that the masses aren't exactly demanding when it comes to story. All I said is that he DID NOT say at any moment that WVM has a good story. DoD of course had its hooks, that's why Lewdlab succeeded back then. Every successful game has a sweet combo of several elements that 'click' for many people, you don't need to be a perfect 10, nor even a bright 8, in one single aspect, but if you somehow manage to get a solid 6-7 in a few key areas (fetishes, art, and story, probably in that order of importance) you have an actual chance to go big if you keep working on it and people believe in your potential thanks to your marketing efforts or proven dedication or whatever. However, things are probably harder these days than they were 3-4 years ago. Then we can discuss what 'success' actually means, and that's when Graphtreon data comes in handy if we want our opinions to carry some weight. Basically, about 90% of devs are NOT successful at all, even if they are doing things 'right'. They just keep releasing updates in the hopes of making it someday or just because this is their beloved hobby.