Others Flexible Survival [v2025-02-24] [Nuku Valentines]

[Sarkath]

I think my big problem with the claims that it's down to Inform being strained (which I was understanding of when I still believed they were doing a Godot port) and them losing interest is that they claimed around an update or two ago that they've gotten a lot of new contributors and yet...there's no evidence of that.

Like I said, in addition to Inform being strained (there's plenty of evidence of that from a former FS dev in this very thread, as well as tickets opened on Inform's bug tracker) the build system is a sluggish pain in the ass. I generally feel like I have a lot of patience, but I was turned away very quickly by the build times. I can't even imagine what the experience would be like to someone who doesn't have development knowledge.

I can fully understand how the game being too big for Inform now and them not being willing to tiptoe around all the characters they can no longer write for would cripple development, but there's an immense lack of transparency when it comes to what work - if any - they're doing on the game.

Yep, no arguments here. When you start accepting money for a product you absolutely need to keep people in the loop.

It paints a pretty grim picture of where the game is going and even if they choose to make a new Flexible X type game, the likelihood of it even being half as fun (not even saying expansive, because there's no chance of them ever rivaling over 14 years worth of content) is nil.

It's hard to say, really. I think a lot of gooners would argue that FS already is a pretty big slog simply due to its IF roots, coupled with the fact that its built-in map system (ZPS) being introduced way too late and still featuring a ton of jank. I don't remember when CoC came out, but I'm fairly certain the two games came out at a similar time, and CoC absolutely trounces FS in terms of approachability. I'm not sure what the writer's experience is like with CoC (or CoC2/TiTS), but I can't imagine it being worse. I mean, the FS writers have to reuse character stats like strength and intellect to track story variables. :|

Considering how much clout FS still has, if they created a sequel that had a better user experience and featured less friction for the writers I think it would have a much greater opportunity for growth than continuing the stumble down their current path. That said, I'm not sure how many experienced programmers they have on their team. The Godot port didn't exactly look stellar last time I looked into it, and I'm not sure how much progress has actually been made on it.

 

[nackedsnake]

It's hard to say, really. I think a lot of gooners would argue that FS already is a pretty big slog simply due to its IF roots, coupled with the fact that its built-in map system (ZPS) being introduced way too late and still featuring a ton of jank. I don't remember when CoC came out, but I'm fairly certain the two games came out at a similar time, and CoC absolutely trounces FS in terms of approachability. I'm not sure what the writer's experience is like with CoC (or CoC2/TiTS), but I can't imagine it being worse. I mean, the FS writers have to reuse character stats like strength and intellect to track story variables. :|

Considering how much clout FS still has, if they created a sequel that had a better user experience and featured less friction for the writers I think it would have a much greater opportunity for growth than continuing the stumble down their current path. That said, I'm not sure how many experienced programmers they have on their team. The Godot port didn't exactly look stellar last time I looked into it, and I'm not sure how much progress has actually been made on it.

That's the problem here. For indie game devs, Purpose and Focus is the core.

Technical Difficulty always happens. But it's devs job to solve them.
The iterations came before FS, is like experiments created for FS, which were moved on pretty quick.
But that's not what's happening to current FS.

We don't know what happens behind doors, Tho the shift to milk money is very apparent,
It's no longer in the dev's best interest, to Improve FS, or to Develop a new one.
That's why neither is happening, when current FS is struggling for years now.

From all games I saw in my years, Once the dev treat money as the End, rather than a Mean, the quality will tank tremendously, if not dead very soon.

Funny enough, Both TiTs and CoC2 are in the very similar state. I guess all these games hv overstayed their welcome.
An Forever money making machine doesn't really exist.

 

[Sarkath]

Technical Difficulty always happens. But it's devs job to solve them.
The iterations came before FS, is like experiments created for FS, which were moved on pretty quick.
But that's not what's happening to current FS.

The iterations were a fraction of the size of FS, and it's basically impossible to tell what an engine's breaking point is going to be unless you actively push against it. So far FS seems to be the only game (out of possibly thousands of IF titles that have used Inform 7 since its release in 2006) that has managed to kill the compiler this badly, and even then it took over a decade for it to become large enough to do so. There are some things you simply can't plan for, and this absolutely is one of them. I also don't think they have any actual programmers (if they did, the Godot port would have probably seen much more noticeable progress) so well…here we are.

I mean, just for context, I'm a fairly seasoned developer at this point (both professionally and personally) and sometimes it can still be tough to predict how well a from-scratch design is going to scale, even after doing your damnedest, running simulations, etc. Writers who just wanna make a game using an existing engine or framework generally don't even consider things like that because they tend to just trust the tech. Regardless of which camp you fall into, trying to plan for unknown situations that can happen a decade down the road is a borderline impossible, unenviable task. There's a reason veteran software engineers are worth so much money, after all.

I can't speak for their intentions with the recent Patreon shifts, but considering how much of the writing seems to be commissioned, coupled with the fact that their funding has been on a steady decline, coupled again with the technical issues, yeah, I don't see things ending well unless something changes. I mean, I highly doubt they just woke up one morning and said, "Alright, time to Blackgate this shit!" given their history, and at this point I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least through the first half of 2025.

 

[nackedsnake]

The iterations were a fraction of the size of FS, and it's basically impossible to tell what an engine's breaking point is going to be unless you actively push against it. So far FS seems to be the only game (out of possibly thousands of IF titles that have used Inform 7 since its release in 2006) that has managed to kill the compiler this badly, and even then it took over a decade for it to become large enough to do so. There are some things you simply can't plan for, and this absolutely is one of them. I also don't think they have any actual programmers (if they did, the Godot port would have probably seen much more noticeable progress) so well…here we are.

I mean, just for context, I'm a fairly seasoned developer at this point (both professionally and personally) and sometimes it can still be tough to predict how well a from-scratch design is going to scale, even after doing your damnedest, running simulations, etc. Writers who just wanna make a game using an existing engine or framework generally don't even consider things like that because they tend to just trust the tech. Regardless of which camp you fall into, trying to plan for unknown situations that can happen a decade down the road is a borderline impossible, unenviable task. There's a reason veteran software engineers are worth so much money, after all.

I can't speak for their intentions with the recent Patreon shifts, but considering how much of the writing seems to be commissioned, coupled with the fact that their funding has been on a steady decline, coupled again with the technical issues, yeah, I don't see things ending well unless something changes. I mean, I highly doubt they just woke up one morning and said, "Alright, time to Blackgate this shit!" given their history, and at this point I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least through the first half of 2025.

Wasn't undermining it's difficulty nor achievements.
I'm simply point out a pattern I recognised.
(Let's hope I'm wrong and FS devs are indeed outliers that's still cooking something good.)

Most devs were setting out to create games rather than chasing profit (Yes even Bane of Blackgate), but people changes, what's beneficial for them then can no longer be beneficial now, vise versa.
The fact people (even ex-devs) are calling for Changes / Reboot for so long yet nothing comes out of it, then then doubling down on what's currently on, tells a lot.
If nothing else, it's a show this development model doesn't really work (anymore), and they are not trying to improve.

The Godot port was like the hope for people to hold onto, then they killed it. At least the are transparent?
Simple question: What can you even expect from this game anymore?

 

[somebodyelseiguess]

The Godot port was like the hope for people to hold onto, then they killed it. At least the are transparent?

The Godot port is gone!? I looked and cannot see Godot being mentioned in the news after June of 2024.
What happened there?

 

[Devronman]

flexible editor works fine. you have to export your progress then use flexibleeditor on one of the files created (there are several) and save the changes. Then importing the file again (which will take 10 to 20 minutes for some reason)

Thats how i managed to enter the lupine lair, by making the hidden rock cavern entrance a public place instead o a private one -.-

Old post, but I can't seem to make this work for some reason. Maybe the editor is too old at this point? I exported my progress, then pointed that editor to the folder, but it couldn't seem to find the files anyway.

Edit: Oh , you said Flexibleeditor, not FlexEdit, which is the one you can just download and run. Having the darndest time trying to compile the editor.

 

[Sarkath]

Edit: Oh , you said Flexibleeditor, not FlexEdit, which is the one you can just download and run. Having the darndest time trying to compile the editor.

There's a pre-compiled binary available. GitHub's release system can be a wee bit confusing if you don't know what to look for, though.

You must be registered to see the links

.

It's still not as friendly as FlexEdit since it basically just gives a raw view of the glkdata file, but if you're just looking to edit character data this reference is still mostly-relevant (though last time I checked the file is now FSCharacterVariablesSave4, not 3).

 

[Devronman]

There's a pre-compiled binary available. GitHub's release system can be a wee bit confusing if you don't know what to look for, though.

You must be registered to see the links

.

It's still not as friendly as FlexEdit since it basically just gives a raw view of the glkdata file, but if you're just looking to edit character data this reference is still mostly-relevant (though last time I checked the file is now FSCharacterVariablesSave4, not 3).

Thank you very much Sarkath.