Ren'Py Four Elements Trainer [v1.0.9d] [Mity]

[Balrog]

why do some of you come here to complain? move on from the game if you think the creators dont meet "your schedule" of when releases should happen. there are what thousands of games on this site? pick a new one and go complain on that thread

It's not 'our schedule' it's their schedule that was a patreon promise.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

why do some of you come here to complain? move on from the game if you think the creators dont meet "your schedule" of when releases should happen. there are what thousands of games on this site? pick a new one and go complain on that thread

It's not our schedule they're failing to keep though is it? It's their own schedule that they continue to push back time and time again. A release that was "nearly ready" in October hasn't even gotten a bug release this late into November.

 

[RocketSurgery]

Riddle me this then, if the coder is the main writer then how does my point about them hiring new help not make sense? Surely if they delegate coding responsibility to a new hire that frees up the current coder to write and takes off some of the pressure.

It depends on how much time they think they have left vs how long it takes to hire a new coder/writer. You'd be better off getting a coder IMO as people will notice the writing style change, but it would take months to get a new coder familiar enough with the codebase to do all the work on their own.

I do think they should get another coder, but I know less about their code situation than they do.

 

[Kenshi2k]

there is no if's/and's/or butts. when they fail to release on time, on Their Time. Four Elements always released within 2 months, and if it did not a reason was given. this time, nothing, and we are 3 months going on 4 now, with no vaild reason given. Complaining Valid.

 

[FireSauner0]

Your explaination suck ass because when you have to change a whole building's worth of lightbulb every month (making 1 build) and you take a 4 month break after every 5 buildings because changing lightbulb all day for months kill your soul, a second person to switch a part of the workload WILL help.

Your exemple sucked 70 pages ago and it suck now.

Do you mean to hire another writer and coder? I'm not sure if that's a good idea the this stage. It could be a success that helps developement or a failiure, that sets developement back. Also consider that they might not want to divide their control over the project accross more people.

When I wrote that post all those pages ago, I made a wild guess that coding might not be the cause of the delay. You said to hire a backup coder right after it.
At that point there wasn't any info about why the delays happened. We have hindsight now (knowing that it's writer's block with a helping of depression). The 2 explanations didn't even match. That's why I decided to post the second one.

Analogies don't have to be 1:1 comparisons. if they did, the point of using them would be lost. My point still stands. No amount of people you throw at this will quicken updates at this late stage in a meaningful way without consequences (loss of either quality, quantity or morale).

 

[FireSauner0]

Your analogy doesn't really track because you're comparing game dev to a mundane task. Changing a light bulb is a one man task but game dev is a whole different ball park. Current they have an artist who sometimes codes side releases like the Halloween specials and a coder who is also the main writer, correct? In the past they've said the coder has suffered serious burnout presumably from the load of having to code everything by themselves and coming up with the main story. However if they hire at least one new person to help with the coding doesn't that free up the load for the coder to then focus on the writing and relieve some of the stress thus preventing this constant burnout? This problem has started ever since that 4 month delay and I'm not saying they're purposefully trying to milk patrons but they have started to get sloppier with releases and take the whole thing for granted. I'm not going to stop bringing this up because every status update of theirs reeks of bullshit to me, I simply don't trust them. Either way I don't care much when they release but I'm always going to talk out against bullshit.

You can't code the damn game until there is content to code. If the writing is bottlenecking the project, an extra coder will be sitting on their ass waiting for the story to be written. I'm sure at this point, that for cbob, the coding part is his ,,break" (minigames included) from writing. I don't think he is burning out on coding a Ren'Py game. It's python, afterall

 

[Fake Rabi ~]

hope there's another update soon about the progress of the game... I want to see more auto biography of cbob working out and conquering his *writers block

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

You can't code the damn game until there is content to code. If the writing is bottlenecking the project, an extra coder will be sitting on their ass waiting for the story to be written. I'm sure at this point, that for cbob, the coding part is his ,,break" (minigames included) from writing. I don't think he is burning out on coding a Ren'Py game. It's python, afterall

Except they've said in the past multiple times that it's the coding that causes the coder burnout so that's what I'm going off of. An extra coder absolutely would help as it frees up time for the writer/coder to focus on the story alone. If the writing is the problem there's also such a thing as hiring other writers to help give a new perspective and freshen things up when you hit a block. All these problems can be solved and yet they're not so why should we continue to be patient? The only thing left to infer is that they prefer to split that 20k between the two of them and they've started to get lazy with the deadlines and know they can take people for granted by posting up some flimsy update about how hard it is on them at the moment and so they promise the update will come out "soon". Yet again they've delayed an update for multiple months, cashing in on their patreon money and I predict that yet again it'll be a subpar update with the bare minimum put into it to pass for however long they decide to fuck off for the next time.

 

[FireSauner0]

Except they've said in the past multiple times that it's the coding that causes the coder burnout so that's what I'm going off of. An extra coder absolutely would help as it frees up time for the writer/coder to focus on the story alone. If the writing is the problem there's also such a thing as hiring other writers to help give a new perspective and freshen things up when you hit a block. All these problems can be solved and yet they're not so why should we continue to be patient? The only thing left to infer is that they prefer to split that 20k between the two of them and they've started to get lazy with the deadlines and know they can take people for granted by posting up some flimsy update about how hard it is on them at the moment and so they promise the update will come out "soon". Yet again they've delayed an update for multiple months, cashing in on their patreon money and I predict that yet again it'll be a subpar update with the bare minimum put into it to pass for however long they decide to fuck off for the next time.

I don't remember them saying it was the coding though. (If you could point me in the direction of an official post saying that, I'd change my stance on this, but as far as I remember, the past 2 months were depression and writer's block)

Hiring a second writer is an entire different aspect of project management. also, again, they might not want to give that control of their own creative process up.

Also, repeating myself once more, the coder can't do much while they don't have anything to code. it's a visual novel. The coder needs to know the structure of the story to code it. (but I'll concede the fact that they could probably do it somehow. as other games do it too. It's just a question of management)

 

[lolchito]

Except they've said in the past multiple times that it's the coding that causes the coder burnout so that's what I'm going off of. An extra coder absolutely would help as it frees up time for the writer/coder to focus on the story alone. If the writing is the problem there's also such a thing as hiring other writers to help give a new perspective and freshen things up when you hit a block. All these problems can be solved and yet they're not so why should we continue to be patient? The only thing left to infer is that they prefer to split that 20k between the two of them and they've started to get lazy with the deadlines and know they can take people for granted by posting up some flimsy update about how hard it is on them at the moment and so they promise the update will come out "soon". Yet again they've delayed an update for multiple months, cashing in on their patreon money and I predict that yet again it'll be a subpar update with the bare minimum put into it to pass for however long they decide to fuck off for the next time.

hire a new writer is a bad idea absolutly, hire one coder more its a bit useless because is a visual novel, what gonna do the coder without story or something to code meanwhile cbob write the story

 

[YoraeRasante]

there is no if's/and's/or butts. when they fail to release on time, on Their Time. Four Elements always released within 2 months, and if it did not a reason was given. this time, nothing, and we are 3 months going on 4 now, with no vaild reason given. Complaining Valid.

yes it was. it was not stated explicitly right away, but slowly over time.

at first, there was some block to break through they were locked in.
then it was explained it was writer's block.
and then that it was coupled with a depression attack on cbob, that he finally pushed past and got help to get better enough to finish this.

something that resonates even more with me today since I just got past my own resistant to get help and contacted my teachers to admit I was at risk of losing my mastery course due to my current bout of it stopping me doing my homework and avoiding going to online meeting not to admit it.

hope there's another update soon about the progress of the game... I want to see more auto biography of cbob working out and conquering his artist block

me too, as I am going through exactly the same thing on a delayed scale.

I now it does not look like it, but I think him finally pushing past it is helping myself do the same, thus why I am defending him so hard - I am literally going through the same here.

Except they've said in the past multiple times that it's the coding that causes the coder burnout so that's what I'm going off of. An extra coder absolutely would help as it frees up time for the writer/coder to focus on the story alone. If the writing is the problem there's also such a thing as hiring other writers to help give a new perspective and freshen things up when you hit a block. All these problems can be solved and yet they're not so why should we continue to be patient? The only thing left to infer is that they prefer to split that 20k between the two of them and they've started to get lazy with the deadlines and know they can take people for granted by posting up some flimsy update about how hard it is on them at the moment and so they promise the update will come out "soon". Yet again they've delayed an update for multiple months, cashing in on their patreon money and I predict that yet again it'll be a subpar update with the bare minimum put into it to pass for however long they decide to fuck off for the next time.

When was it said that it was the coding causing the coder burnout? we took it to be so because he was identified as the coder, but I don't recall it ever being mentioned it was the code.
If I am wrong though, please quote it.

I'm pretty sure marty is doing that already, giving more ideas, plus giving him a friendly push to get help. unless they took over the writing themselves, doubt an extra one would be any help here.
especially since another writer means different ideas. how many series were said to be ruined by executive meddling? this new writer would be given permission to push for those things.

"all these problems" the writer's block? the depression?

also, something you REALLY need: line breaks.
they don't even need to be double ones like I use to separate subjects. just it not being one big mass of letters makes it much easier to read what you write and not just ignore it as stupd ramblings.

 

[Chains123]

Honestly man how much writing did book 1 really require? Cause im absolutely fine with that lvl of writing if it gives me the actual important part of this game at a faster rate.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

I don't remember them saying it was the coding though. (If you could point me in the direction of an official post saying that, I'd change my stance on this, but as far as I remember, the past 2 months were depression and writer's block)

Hiring a second writer is an entire different aspect of project management. also, again, they might not want to give that control of their own creative process up.

Also, repeating myself once more, the coder can't do much while they don't have anything to code. it's a visual novel. The coder needs to know the structure of the story to code it. (but I'll concede the fact that they could probably do it somehow. as other games do it too. It's just a question of management)

I'm not talking about recently but in the past whenever there was a delay it was always because the coder was stuck trying to implement a new minigame which required a lot of programming, thus causing burnout. If you want to find it I believe it was with the CCG in part 4 and possibly even the crab battles. As for the creative control, hiring a new writer doesn't immediately relinquish their hold on the project, it's still their game but its obvious that two people isn't enough for the 3 main jobs they have here so something needs to give.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

yes it was. it was not stated explicitly right away, but slowly over time.

at first, there was some block to break through they were locked in.
then it was explained it was writer's block.
and then that it was coupled with a depression attack on cbob, that he finally pushed past and got help to get better enough to finish this.

something that resonates even more with me today since I just got past my own resistant to get help and contacted my teachers to admit I was at risk of losing my mastery course due to my current bout of it stopping me doing my homework and avoiding going to online meeting not to admit it.


me too, as I am going through exactly the same thing on a delayed scale.

I now it does not look like it, but I think him finally pushing past it is helping myself do the same, thus why I am defending him so hard - I am literally going through the same here.


When was it said that it was the coding causing the coder burnout? we took it to be so because he was identified as the coder, but I don't recall it ever being mentioned it was the code.
If I am wrong though, please quote it.

I'm pretty sure marty is doing that already, giving more ideas, plus giving him a friendly push to get help. unless they took over the writing themselves, doubt an extra one would be any help here.
especially since another writer means different ideas. how many series were said to be ruined by executive meddling? this new writer would be given permission to push for those things.

"all these problems" the writer's block? the depression?

also, something you REALLY need: line breaks.
they don't even need to be double ones like I use to separate subjects. just it not being one big mass of letters makes it much easier to read what you write and not just ignore it as stupd ramblings.

Not to come across as cold, but it's hard to believe these things are real when there's a pattern of it in the past and they've used it to get out of updating the game time and time again. Try to paint it as me being callous but at some point the village people stopped listening to the boy who cried wolf.

 

[YoraeRasante]

Honestly man how much writing did book 1 really require? Cause im absolutely fine with that lvl of writing if it gives me the actual important part of this game at a faster rate.

you may notice most other people nowadays consider the current writing the actual important part of the game.
if that level is what you want, book 4's slave route is already out. or other games like bend or break 1 and 2

I'm not talking about recently but in the past whenever there was a delay it was always because the coder was stuck trying to implement a new minigame which required a lot of programming, thus causing burnout. If you want to find it I believe it was with the CCG in part 4 and possibly even the crab battles. As for the creative control, hiring a new writer doesn't immediately relinquish their hold on the project, it's still their game but its obvious that two people isn't enough for the 3 main jobs they have here so something needs to give.

I don't remember any mention of code problems with the card game, and I remember being following here before t was released. just that the cause was the coder, but as we now know he is also the main writer.

did you ever notice how the more writers in a movie the less likely it will make cohesive sense? something one person added not meshing with what another one did? now imagine this in a first-person story like this one.
no, if it had not been planned to have multiple writers from the start, adding ones in the middle is a bad idea.

 

[Separin]

something that resonates even more with me today since I just got past my own resistant to get help and contacted my teachers to admit I was at risk of losing my mastery course due to my current bout of it stopping me doing my homework and avoiding going to online meeting not to admit it.

I now it does not look like it, but I think him finally pushing past it is helping myself do the same, thus why I am defending him so hard - I am literally going through the same here.

See, this is interesting. I am going through a very similar situation. Masters degree, I lag behind assignments and I often avoid checking email for the fear of confrontation.

But, just as you self-diagnose as having depressions/burnout, I diagnose myself as being chronically lazy, therefore I take all the blame and responsibility with no exceptions. So, funnily enough, our shared predicament has cast us on opposing sides of this whole discussion. You're sure he's depressed and shouldn't be reprimanded, I suspect he's grown lazy and comes up with excuses as I often do. The more you know...

I'm pretty sure marty is doing that already, giving more ideas, plus giving him a friendly push to get help. unless they took over the writing themselves, doubt an extra one would be any help here.
especially since another writer means different ideas. how many series were said to be ruined by executive meddling? this new writer would be given permission to push for those things.

It has been hinted at that communication between Marty and cbob is intermittent at best, so I wouldn't be so sure about that. Also, don't underestimate the combined power of three imaginations instead of just two, a third perspective could do wonders.
Yeah, another writer means different ideas, that's the point. And we're not talking about some Hollywood reboot where they usually kick out everyone responsible for previous incarnations. Cbob could (and should) remain fully in control, take the other writer's work, trim it down, expand upon it, or rewrite it all, using but one of this writer's ideas.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

you may notice most other people nowadays consider the current writing the actual important part of the game.
if that level is what you want, book 4's slave route is already out. or other games like bend or break 1 and 2


I don't remember any mention of code problems with the card game, and I remember being following here before t was released. just that the cause was the coder, but as we now know he is also the main writer.

did you ever notice how the more writers in a movie the less likely it will make cohesive sense? something one person added not meshing with what another one did? now imagine this in a first-person story like this one.
no, if it had not been planned to have multiple writers from the start, adding ones in the middle is a bad idea.

You're speaking out of your ass. Obviously if there's a whole council of writers who decide the plot by committee it won't be cohesive but I didn't suggest that did I? I said they either need someone to come in and help with the load on the coding side or a writer to come in and help bring a new perspective which could help push past through any writer's block. As for the minigame thing I remember the programming being cited as a reason and I've been following this game since the first build was released on a thread in /aco/. Continue to make excuses for them I don't really care but it's getting frustrating. Try to look at this whole thing from a new perspective. Whenever it looks like the update won't release on a deadline THEY themselves set we suddenly get a new status update talking about the trials and tribulations of the coder/writer or some random nonsense that usually ends with "so we're delaying it". Does that not seem like they're just waffling and trying to buy time. Whatever their reasons the fact is that the delays continue with minimal effort put into actual releases and they continue to get paid ridiculous amounts monthly. Maybe some of that should be used to invest some resources into the game to help improve its quality and assure releases become more timely.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

See, this is interesting. I am going through a very similar situation. Masters degree, I lag behind assignments and I often avoid checking email for the fear of confrontation.

But, just as you self-diagnose as having depressions/burnout, I diagnose myself as being chronically lazy, therefore I take all the blame and responsibility with no exceptions. So, funnily enough, our shared predicament has cast us on opposing sides of this whole discussion. You're sure he's depressed and shouldn't be reprimanded, I suspect he's grown lazy and comes up with excuses as I often do. The more you know...


It has been hinted that communication between Marty and cbob is intermittent at best, so I wouldn't be so sure about that. Also, don't underestimate the combined power of three imaginations instead of just two, a third perspective could do wonders.
Yeah, another writer means different ideas, that's the point. And we're not talking about some Hollywood reboot where they usually kick out everyone responsible for previous incarnations. Cbob could (and should) remain fully in control, take the other writer's work, trim it down, expand upon it, or rewrite it all, using but one of this writer's ideas.

Thank you. Somebody who actually understands what I'm trying to say without twisting it around to some ludicrous suggestion that cbob be ousted from his own project.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

I'll also add this. The reason it seems complaints are piling up in here as opposed to other projects with similar delays is because projects like Taffy Tales and Summertime Saga don't have someone constantly updating people towards the end of a month promising that the new build will be out soon (aside from lostraven who gives vague updates on the progress of the build but never actually sets a hard deadline, only really just chats in the forum). Whenever MITY makes a post telling us that "the coder promises it'll be out in a week" they shoot themselves in the foot because that week ends and then they make another "coder is feeling really sad and frustrated they couldn't do it so I ordered them to take a break so they wouldn't burn out please guy we promise it'll be out in a couple weeks" and then this continues until 3 months have passed, they've made 60k for doing nothing and now they can release a subpar update with maybe 3 new scenes or something and a whole bunch of filler. It's a sad trend but I notice they were far more enthusiastic and driven back when they barely made anything in their patreon and they were working on book 1.

 

[Separin]

Realistically, there are two problems cbob could face in his alleged writer's block:

1. No plans ahead. He has no idea where to go next and has no underlying story arc or structure planned up. In this case, another perspective helps unfreezing his clogged brain, by posing various alternatives of where the story could go next and what the immediate next steps should entail. When he gets this boost, he can go with it and do it in his style. For all I care, he can even ask the highest-tier patreons for free, people are pretty imaginative.
2. He has a structure, but lacks the actual bulk of the text. This is more tricky, as it has much more to do with keeping the writing coherent stylistically. But, theoretically, he can send another writer (or even Marty) some basic scene instructions such as "Korra goes to apologize to MC" or "Korra hj - displeased at start, but is determined to do a good job". He then revises the resulted text and rewrites it to his style and liking. I'm sure that after all the stuff he wrote, he should be able to implant his trademark style into a text. Even if not, it could help his "block" if this appeals to his ego ("This is shit, I can do it much better, like.." *commences to write*).