Ren'Py Four Elements Trainer [v1.1.2b] [Mity]

[YoraeRasante]

Hey guys, do you know if the update will only be about bk4 LR?

I'd love to play a fifth book, this game is great!

the current update is to progress on book 4 love route, yes. According to the creator, after that it will be just be a final chapter to close things up. We have no idea what it will be about though, but there are some possible hints through the books on both routes, sometimes different to each route, thus why I sometimes post speculations that one person called "full twin peaks" (still need to watch it, by the way)

 

[FallinD]

the current update is to progress on book 4 love route, yes. According to the creator, after that it will be just be a final chapter to close things up. We have no idea what it will be about though, but there are some possible hints through the books on both routes, sometimes different to each route, thus why I sometimes post speculations that one person called "full twin peaks" (still need to watch it, by the way)

Thx!
I like your idea about twins... I like to imagine shady being the anti-avatar (instead of reincarnating hes immortal) and having to kill him to reunite your true self, in the same way as the naga snake sisters.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

that's not how creative burnout works. and since the problem here is creative extra help would not help.

How do you know the problem is creative? They've said multiple times in the past the problem is burnout from the coders side. They cite that it's too much work piling up on them and that they need to take breaks because of the burnout, so would this not lead the people reading the updates to believe that if they had extra help to take some of the load off of the coder that things would go smoother? You're making no sense. You're trying to seem reasonable by breaking down my argument but you have nothing to base it on. They have a general idea of what they want the story to be but the problem always seems to be when they implement minigames or random shit nobody needs and then the coder "burns out". It makes sense from a business standpoint for them to hire extra help to have the updates come out more smoothly and then draw in more patrons but instead they're set on it just being the two of them and then leading everybody along with status updates about random shit.

 

[APoc1]

How do you know the problem is creative? They've said multiple times in the past the problem is burnout from the coders side. They cite that it's too much work piling up on them and that they need to take breaks because of the burnout, so would this not lead the people reading the updates to believe that if they had extra help to take some of the load off of the coder that things would go smoother? You're making no sense. You're trying to seem reasonable by breaking down my argument but you have nothing to base it on. They have a general idea of what they want the story to be but the problem always seems to be when they implement minigames or random shit nobody needs and then the coder "burns out". It makes sense from a business standpoint for them to hire extra help to have the updates come out more smoothly and then draw in more patrons but instead they're set on it just being the two of them and then leading everybody along with status updates about random shit.

I think the latest reason was writers block although it is a form of burnout I don't think that has anything to do with the shitty mini games. Writers block is a hard one to over come, I am not saying I buy every excuse that gets laid out there but does it really matter? all this righteous indignation on update frequency is pointless. If you are a patreon and you don't like the delays then vote with your feet simple right? I don't really see any hard evidence in your post to prove your milking theory. Also the coder is the main writer and while I think he is crazier than a bag of scorpions on meth I don't see any real evidence that they are consciously milking people.

 

[YoraeRasante]

How do you know the problem is creative? They've said multiple times in the past the problem is burnout from the coders side. They cite that it's too much work piling up on them and that they need to take breaks because of the burnout, so would this not lead the people reading the updates to believe that if they had extra help to take some of the load off of the coder that things would go smoother? You're making no sense. You're trying to seem reasonable by breaking down my argument but you have nothing to base it on. They have a general idea of what they want the story to be but the problem always seems to be when they implement minigames or random shit nobody needs and then the coder "burns out". It makes sense from a business standpoint for them to hire extra help to have the updates come out more smoothly and then draw in more patrons but instead they're set on it just being the two of them and then leading everybody along with status updates about random shit.

the coder is the main writer. it was specifically said by the artist it is writers' block affecting - creative. As a coder and amateur writer myself, I can understand him making, then adding, minigames as a way to relax his head to be able to work on the story better later. In fact, I can almost bet that is the reason for all the minigames, thinking more about it.

you are purposefully making no sense. you are trying to break down my argument by focusing on something you think is a fault you can base yours on, while it could be counter-argued by just looking a few pages ago on this thread. also putting it all in one paragraph so I would get too tired to actually read it, so you can pretend you "won"

"burnout" can come from anything. And as the coder is also the writer, something that was not always clear, that means two different reasons it could be so.
especially as he was not an experienced coder at the start, as the artist himself is working on refactoring (bettering) the old code on the side. meaning most of his old code was copied from public ones with some edits, or as I said before made to relax his mind, so most of the burnout on his side should be from the writing.

also, many of the old ones were on the artist's side too. and you can't expect a second artist to mesh well with the old one, just look at the mess of Corrupted /Hearts' Wonderland with three different artists for many reasons.

It seems to me the new people complained are just people who recently arrived and just want more and to complain, and not really into the reasons for the delay or even if they are reasonable, as it would get in the ways of the complaining.

if we stopped just complaining about there being a delay, and talked about... anything else related to the game, I doubt this would have gotten to page 1000 yet. And we are already on page 1014

 

[RocketSurgery]

Exactly they've been at it for 4 years. They make more than enough to bring in extra help to prevent things like burnout yet instead they drop minimal updates and then fuck off for months on end all the while leaving little updates to keep their income flowing. Doesn't that seem sketchy to you? But hey, say I'm the one in the wrong here whatever.

They could do a lot of things if they wanted to expand MITY's capacity but they obviously don't want to, people proceed to support them to this high level of revenue regardless. Just because more people support does not mean they are obligated to ramp up capacity to match. Also, timely monthly releases is really uncommon in the software development world; my software team only releases quarterly despite monthly subscription.

 

[YoraeRasante]

timely monthly releases is really uncommon in the software development world

fixed that for you.

 

[FireSauner0]

Why is the concept of diminishing returns when hiring new people on a small project that hard to understand?

Let me explain with an analogy: How many people does it take to change a lightbulb (in an average day-to-day situation)? One. The second person doesn't add much, but can be of some assistance at least. The third (and needless to say, beyond) is just standing around, being of no use at all.

There are problems that can't be fixed by throwing more people at them. I explained something like this 70 pages or so ago. If it's a writing issue, a new coder won't help much, as it isn't the bottleneck.

Everybody is free to express their opinions, but keep in mind that's also true for everyone else. Also, consider not parroting the same stuff that's been said a million times, this ,,debate" has been going for dozens of pages, with basically nothing new being said, burying official updates and other useful info in the process. (yes, i've considered taking my own advice and not posting, but I believe most of this hasn't been said)

 

[Balrog]

Why is the concept of diminishing returns when hiring new people on a small project that hard to understand?

Let me explain with an analogy: How many people does it take to change a lightbulb (in an average day-to-day situation)? One. The second person doesn't add much, but can be of some assistance at least. The third (and needless to say, beyond) is just standing around, being of no use at all.

There are problems that can't be fixed by throwing more people at them. I explained something like this 70 pages or so ago. If it's a writing issue, a new coder won't help much, as it isn't the bottleneck.

Everybody is free to express their opinions, but keep in mind that's also true for everyone else. Also, consider not parroting the same stuff that's been said a million times, this ,,debate" has been going for dozens of pages, with basically nothing new being said, burying official updates and other useful info in the process. (yes, i've considered taking my own advice and not posting, but I believe most of this hasn't been said)

Your explaination suck ass because when you have to change a whole building's worth of lightbulb every month (making 1 build) and you take a 4 month break after every 5 buildings because changing lightbulb all day for months kill your soul, a second person to switch a part of the workload WILL help.

Your exemple sucked 70 pages ago and it suck now.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

the coder is the main writer. it was specifically said by the artist it is writers' block affecting - creative. As a coder and amateur writer myself, I can understand him making, then adding, minigames as a way to relax his head to be able to work on the story better later. In fact, I can almost bet that is the reason for all the minigames, thinking more about it.

you are purposefully making no sense. you are trying to break down my argument by focusing on something you think is a fault you can base yours on, while it could be counter-argued by just looking a few pages ago on this thread. also putting it all in one paragraph so I would get too tired to actually read it, so you can pretend you "won"

"burnout" can come from anything. And as the coder is also the writer, something that was not always clear, that means two different reasons it could be so.
especially as he was not an experienced coder at the start, as the artist himself is working on refactoring (bettering) the old code on the side. meaning most of his old code was copied from public ones with some edits, or as I said before made to relax his mind, so most of the burnout on his side should be from the writing.

also, many of the old ones were on the artist's side too. and you can't expect a second artist to mesh well with the old one, just look at the mess of Corrupted /Hearts' Wonderland with three different artists for many reasons.

It seems to me the new people complained are just people who recently arrived and just want more and to complain, and not really into the reasons for the delay or even if they are reasonable, as it would get in the ways of the complaining.

if we stopped just complaining about there being a delay, and talked about... anything else related to the game, I doubt this would have gotten to page 1000 yet. And we are already on page 1014

Riddle me this then, if the coder is the main writer then how does my point about them hiring new help not make sense? Surely if they delegate coding responsibility to a new hire that frees up the current coder to write and takes off some of the pressure.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

Why is the concept of diminishing returns when hiring new people on a small project that hard to understand?

Let me explain with an analogy: How many people does it take to change a lightbulb (in an average day-to-day situation)? One. The second person doesn't add much, but can be of some assistance at least. The third (and needless to say, beyond) is just standing around, being of no use at all.

There are problems that can't be fixed by throwing more people at them. I explained something like this 70 pages or so ago. If it's a writing issue, a new coder won't help much, as it isn't the bottleneck.

Everybody is free to express their opinions, but keep in mind that's also true for everyone else. Also, consider not parroting the same stuff that's been said a million times, this ,,debate" has been going for dozens of pages, with basically nothing new being said, burying official updates and other useful info in the process. (yes, i've considered taking my own advice and not posting, but I believe most of this hasn't been said)

Your analogy doesn't really track because you're comparing game dev to a mundane task. Changing a light bulb is a one man task but game dev is a whole different ball park. Current they have an artist who sometimes codes side releases like the Halloween specials and a coder who is also the main writer, correct? In the past they've said the coder has suffered serious burnout presumably from the load of having to code everything by themselves and coming up with the main story. However if they hire at least one new person to help with the coding doesn't that free up the load for the coder to then focus on the writing and relieve some of the stress thus preventing this constant burnout? This problem has started ever since that 4 month delay and I'm not saying they're purposefully trying to milk patrons but they have started to get sloppier with releases and take the whole thing for granted. I'm not going to stop bringing this up because every status update of theirs reeks of bullshit to me, I simply don't trust them. Either way I don't care much when they release but I'm always going to talk out against bullshit.

 

[Deleted member 59977]

Honestly, wanting to compare a delay of a few months with a robbery, what an exaggeration lol.

The devs said the game was coming out last month since I liked the game I became a high tier patreon and nothing happened. If I wanted to throw away money I would have thrown it elsewhere.

Its not a big amount and I really dont mind delays I understand that shit happens and I am fine with that. But what I saw here was incompetence, a lack of coordination among the creators and several excuses - even one of the creators did not know what was up with the other creator based on the patreon comments. I personally am never again going to support them for this reason.

And this is one of the reasons I dont mind the complaining in the forums - it at least gives people a warning before they decide to support. If people are fine with inconsistent updates and like the project enough to overlook the above then thats great but for people who are not familiar with the devs and their track record, all this complaining is a very good thing.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

People always say "these forums are for discussing the game stop whining". Not realising that for starters they're also whining but also if there was actually something to discuss people would but when all they wake up to is delays its only natural they would be dissatisfied and want to vent about it. We'll discuss the game when there's actual new content to discuss but what we have has already been talked about.

 

[FriendlyBear12]

This is not a professional book he is writing, this is porn game ffs. 95% of the reason this game is good is the art. For me, the writing is only there to tie things together and explain how I progress. I am frustrated because the thing holding back progress, is low importance filler.

If the artist left, the future of this game would instantly die. The coder/writer can be replaced. The artist made 2 halloween games all by himself and I enjoyed both mainly because of the art. His partner is nothing but a ball and chain at this point.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

This is not a professional book he is writing, this is porn game ffs. 95% of the reason this game is good is the art. For me, the writing is only there to tie things together and explain how I progress. I am frustrated because the thing holding back progress, is low importance filler.

If the artist left, the future of this game would instantly die. The coder/writer can be replaced. The artist made 2 halloween games all by himself and I enjoyed both mainly because of the art. His partner is nothing but a ball and chain at this point.

I wouldn't go that far, the writing is all right what actually holds back the game is the slow progress which seems to come from when the coder decides they want to add some minigame which has no relevance to the game and ends up breaking it. What they need is at least one more person to help with the load.

 

[FriendlyBear12]

I wouldn't go that far, the writing is all right what actually holds back the game is the slow progress which seems to come from when the coder decides they want to add some minigame which has no relevance to the game and ends up breaking it. What they need is at least one more person to help with the load.

It used to be minigames but this time the excuse is writer's block. Cbob has no self-control, he is his own worst enemy.

 

[strenif]

It used to be minigames but this time the excuse is writer's block. Cbob has no self-control, he is his own worst enemy.

Hey. Writers block is not a joke. Sometime you spend all day with a blank page on your screen and can't get past it. Everything looks like shit and all you want to do is anything else but sit in front of the computer with no ideas.

 

[FriendlyBear12]

Hey. Writers block is not a joke. Sometime you spend all day with a blank page on your screen and can't get past it. Everything looks like shit and all you want to do is anything else but sit in front of the computer with no ideas.

Cbob is the only one setting the standard. He has plenty of time, his problem is clearly meeting "quality" standards imposed by himself. Nothing will ever get done with that mindset and it's unreasonable for him to put such pressure on himself. Again, I want to point out this a random porn game and the art is pulling the heavy load anyway. There exist porn novels for txt horny individuals.

 

[RebelliousKnightMordred]

Hey. Writers block is not a joke. Sometime you spend all day with a blank page on your screen and can't get past it. Everything looks like shit and all you want to do is anything else but sit in front of the computer with no ideas.

No one is saying it's a joke but obviously we have to factor in the fact that coding is also their responsibility and if they had someone to help them with that it'd help things along. This idea has been suggested for years and it gets shot down or ignored. Why? I mean they make 20k a month for gods sake it's not like it'd bleed them dry. Do you not see how this looks? Ever since that long delay of 4 months a while back they've been taking their patrons patience and support for granted and whenever they know they won't make a deadline they themselves set they make some post about burnout to play the sympathy card and secure yet another month of payment.

 

[Barkin 10]

Yep. I told you this would happen.

https://f95zone.to/threads/four-elements-trainer-v0-9-0c-mity.730/page-1003#post-4561671