Games comparison and dev's sheltering

[kopiluwak]

'Existing mechanics' do not exist, they would have to be made. What you are saying makes about as much sense as 'see that house over there, its got great features, so just use those'

they do, as initialy said, you don't need to reinvent the wheel, it does make sense, just not to you. and to take your metaphor about the house, a roof that's not leaky is a good feature, insulation is a good feature, solar panels are good features, you can't just stubbornly refuse to look at what others are doing.

Except people trying to get information, get help, report bugs, post help, answer questions. If you have spent even 2 minutes in game threads you'd know adding another reason to go off-topic is a terrible idea.

*sigh*

This is you assuming ALL dev's who's games are here use this site, this is you assuming all dev's who's games are here want their games here. What's the point of comparison if the dev NEVER reads it other than to start arguments and go off-topic?

I addressed that point, cf:

..different part of the forum are visited by vastly different populations and has no value if it's not acknowledged by the game's own dev, backers and other potential support.

the point is specifically to talk to the dev which is a native of F95, about his game., and yes F95 is more suited for conversation than patreon and even discord (which is just filled with nothing but yes-man)

There is also nothing wrong with a dev making THEIR game the way they want to and again dev's for a lot of the games here DO NOT use this site.

true, but you oppose "the potential of sharing a good idea" by saying "not all ideas are good therefore there should be none"

Criticism is NOT muted, the problem is many "adults" do not know how to act like adults and so do not give civil or constructive criticism, something you would know if you spent time in game threads. Also if you think dev's end up in complacency because of comments on here you clearly need to spend more time both reading game threads and reading some of these dev's profiles. The amount of abuse hurled at many of them is absurd and you will find most of those "the game is great" comments are replies to people complaining, harassing and trolling game threads.

Illustrating your point by making attacks ad hominem, instead of debating the idea ?

and has no value in the game thread either.

Judgement of value, that's what you think.

This is a shot in the dark but I'm guessing you either made a comparison or you gave criticism and it wasn't well received and that prompted this thread. Which I'm guessing is why you keep focusing on "yes-men" and "echo-chambers" when neither is close to the truth.

There is nothing wrong with coming up with ideas to improve the site BUT it really helps when any of the reasons behind it are actually real or factual.

Again you talk about me, is this how you debate ?

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

they do, as initialy said, you don't need to reinvent the wheel, it does make sense, just not to you. and to take your metaphor about the house, a rool that's not leaky is a good feature, insulation is a good feature, solar panels are good features, you can't just stubbornly refuse to look at what others are doing.

You totally missed the point. Even if you like those features you STILL NEED TO BUILD A HOUSE TO USE THEM. Its not 'quick' or 'easy', and may well take a devs time away from something else they would rather be working on in their game. Every dev has things they wish they could include but prioritize other aspects instead.

And to talk about a feature you don't need to compare it. Just offer feedback such as 'the camera angles are difficult to see, can they be widened or further back'

Your argument is flawed - devs cop alot of shit on here, anyone with eyes can see it.

And for the reasons already listed by myself and others - no comparisons = good.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

you can't just stubbornly refuse to look at what others are doing.

Gotta ask. Do you think we don't play other games? Every dev I know plays a lot of these games.

 

[kopiluwak]

You totally missed the point. Even if you like those features you STILL NEED TO BUILD A HOUSE TO USE THEM. Its not 'quick' or 'easy', and may well take a devs time away from something else they would rather be working on in their game. Every dev has things they wish they could include but prioritize other aspects instead.

there are several way to build a house, I agree that the dev should working on their own original idea and make it the best they can, but that's coming from the premise that devs all know what they are doing and they are all equally experienced professional, and that's not the reality, and at some point it's an EGO issue, when Dev think he know best and refuse to take anything from anyone.

And to talk about a feature you don't need to compare it. Just offer feedback such as 'the camera angles are difficult to see, can they be widened or further back'

Yes indeed, but not everyone can "come up" with better idea, but what everyone can do is see where else they saw something more ergonomic, more suitable, etc.

Your argument is flawed - devs cop alot of shit on here, anyone with eyes can see it.

what are you trying to say now ? and how does that make it exclusive of allowing comparison ? they suffer too much so we have to spare them ?

Gotta ask. Do you think we don't play other games? Every dev I know plays a lot of these games.

What was the supposed premise here, that devs aren't humans and they don't do human thing ? of course they would play games, I'd go as far as saying they make games because they played games, I though it was a well established common ground for conversation.

But on that, there's an argument of ego to be made, that DEV think he can do better, and discard all other idea out of sheer narcissism.

 

[morphnet]

the point is specifically to talk to the dev which is a native of F95, about his game., and yes F95 is more suited for conversation than patreon and even discord (which is just filled with nothing but yes-man)

1)So the rules should change so you can "talk to" a small amount of dev's and created a ton a work for mods in ALL the threads with no dev's? Sounds a little selfish...

2) F95 is more suited for conversation? In no universe is that true. You would know this is you spent time in game threads, almost everything you are saying screams you've never spent time in game threads.

3) You are asking us to actually believe that many of the vocal minority here will actually check to see if a dev is active? They can't even be bothered to see the save they are asking for is in the reply above there's a lot of the time.

true, but you oppose "the potential of sharing a good idea" by saying "not all ideas are good therefore there should be none"

...and when you can show ANYONE said that EVER here we can talk about it

Illustrating your point by making attacks ad hominem, instead of debating the idea ?

Stating facts, which you would know if you were taking this seriously. You are also avoiding addressing those fact by trying to switch attention to me and not the valid, factual point I made...

Judgement of value, that's what you think.

I've told you exactly what I think in plain simple english...

Again you talk about me, is this how you debate ?

The debate never started, you made a terrible suggestion and put no thought into it or the bigger picture. All that's left now is for you to see and understand that.

If you actually wanted to debate you would have offered solutions to how the "new" rule change would affect other threads, how to deal with it, how in apply your idea, how to manage your idea etc.
You've done none of that, also finding and discussing your motivation is a VALID point.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

But on that, there's an argument of ego to be made, that DEV think he can do better, and discard all other idea out of sheer narcissism.

I've talked to maybe two devs total who had anything even resembling an ego. Not wanting to include a suggestion is not narcissistic, there are dozens of reasons someone might not want to add something.

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

what are you trying to say now ? and how does that make it exclusive of allowing comparison ? they suffer too much so we have to spare them ?

Thread is literally called 'devs sheltering'. You are arguing they are too protected and surrounded by 'yes men'. This is observably false, and every single responder has told you this.

there are several way to build a house, I agree that the dev should working on their own original idea and make it the best they can, but that's coming from the premise that devs all know what they are doing and they are all equally experienced professional, and that's not the reality, and at some point it's an EGO issue, when Dev think he know best and refuse to take anything from anyone.

If you are providing 'feed back' but cannot be bothered to describe what the issue/solution is, you are literally just saying 'other dev did it better but I cant be bothered to describe how so you go figure it out yourself'. Devs cant just grab a feature from the feature store and bolt it on, and it may be incompatible with their work so far, and you may not even NEED the feature to address whatever issue is in a game you think needs fixing.

Your ignorance is coming through in thinking its EGO & not working within limitations.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I would gladly discuss with you whether it's ultimately a good or a bad thing, and why or why not it should be avoided in game's thread and reviews, as long as you're able to behave politely.

What is there to discuss? You make up all your arguments because you clearly have no clue about the topic, and when people point it to you, you dodge and try to pass yourself for a victim.

You did say it's negligible quantity, now you can drop the mob mentality and engage in conversation please ?

You know that it's a public forum, and that readers can go back to my post and see by themselves that it's absolutely not what I wrote, right?

What I said is just an explanation of what Insomnimaniac told you. Therefore that, in their vast majority, devs do not earn much, most of them earning US$ 100/month at most. And the fact that you read this as me claiming that F95zone play a negligible role, is just one of the many proof of the ignorance I pointed above.


So, the question stay the same than previously:
Are you here to discuss, what imply that you accept to recognize when you're wrong, or are you just here in search for a validation that you'll never get?

 

[anne O'nymous]

[...] there are dozens of reasons someone might not want to add something.

Your ignorance is coming through in thinking its EGO & not working within limitations.

Reasons and limitations that most of the time come from a single fucking well know fact from anyone that have been reading game threads for more than few months:

Most of those devs do this on their free time and had near to no coding, and even less game making, knowledge before they started working on that hobby of them.

 

[kopiluwak]

1)So the rules should change so you can "talk to" a small amount of dev's and created a ton a work for mods in ALL the threads with no dev's? Sounds a little selfish...

2) F95 is more suited for conversation? In no universe is that true. You would know this is you spent time in game threads, almost everything you are saying screams you've never spent time in game threads.

3) You are asking us to actually believe that many of the vocal minority here will actually check to see if a dev is active? They can't even be bothered to see the save they are asking for is in the reply above there's a lot of the time.

1 . I'm discussing the existence of those rules yes, it's the idea,
2. F95 is a forum, and I refuse to take my time to educate you about what a forum is.
3. there are nothing BUT vocal minorities, the tens of thousands of peoples that pass by this forum daily never engage in conversation, the vast majority is passive, silent observer.

What I ask you is to engage in a civilised conversation, if you fail to behave appropriately I will ignore you, you're not talking about me, period.

I've talked to maybe two devs total who had anything even resembling an ego. Not wanting to include a suggestion is not narcissistic, there are dozens of reasons someone might not want to add something.

Mind to share that with me ? I would be interested to know.

Thread is literally called 'devs sheltering'. You are arguing they are too protected and surrounded by 'yes men'. This is observably false, and every single responder has told you this.

The fact that you disagree doesn't mean you're right, how peoples that are engaged In patreon (and by extention discord in some cases) are not supportive of the dev and the current way to do things ? it's a self defeating argument you're making.

Devs cant just grab a feature from the feature store and bolt it on, and it may be incompatible with their work so far, and you may not even NEED the feature to address whatever issue is in a game you think needs fixing.

Critical thinking is indeed a nice thing, If you don't need it good, but you you have to be creatively bankrupt to have "what I created is perfect" as a starting point.

What is there to discuss? You make up all your arguments because you clearly have no clue about the topic, and when people point it to you, you dodge and try to pass yourself for a victim.

I just asked you don't talk about things you know nothing about, which is me.

Most of those devs do this on their free time and had near to no coding, and even less game making, knowledge before they started working on that hobby of them.

And it's an argument against comparison ?

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Mind to share that with me ? I would be interested to know.

The devs I've spoken to with an ego? Sorry, man. I don't really feel comfortable publicly outing people like that. But I can say that their games are not very well liked here anyway.

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

The fact that you disagree doesn't mean you're right, how peoples that are engaged In patreon (and by extention discord in some cases) are not supportive of the dev and the current way to do things ? it's a self defeating argument you're making.

This thread is about the rule on f95. I am stating that on f95 they are not overly protected nor surrounded by yes men. They instead tend to get some pretty toxic shit thrown at them. This is not an opinion, its an easily observable fact by reading game threads. This has nothing to do with patreon.

Stop trying to change what is being said so you can respond in the negative, you are 100% WRONG on this point & arguing it just makes you lose any credibility you are trying to gain.

Critical thinking is indeed a nice thing, If you don't need it good, but you you have to be creatively bankrupt to have "what I created is perfect" as a starting point.

You are twisting words again, this response has nothing to do with what I wrote. You seem to have a narrative in your mind, and rather than reading what is written you warp it into your own version and then argue against that instead of what I am actually saying. Critical thinking is WHAT I was talking about, the dev is working within limitations (time, skill, engine, existing code etc.).

 

[kopiluwak]

The devs I've spoken to with an ego? Sorry, man. I don't really feel comfortable publicly outing people like that. But I can say that their games are not very well liked here anyway.

Sorry, I mean

Not wanting to include a suggestion is not narcissistic, there are dozens of reasons someone might not want to add something.

what would be the motivation if not narcissism ? there's obviously common sense, you don't have to put intricate rpg element in a visual novel, it's clearly not the aim, but if you look at two similar product, what would be the reason for one not to make a comparison ?

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

what would be the motivation if not narcissism ? there's obviously common sense, you don't have to put intricate rpg element in a visual novel, it's clearly not the aim, but if you compare two similar product, what would be the reason for one not to make a comparison ?

What are the reasons for not adding something suggested, even if another game has it? Maybe the dev doesn't like the feature. Maybe it would take too much time. Maybe it clashes with future plans. Or, it could simply be that that don't want to. The list goes on. I rejected several suggestions myself for all the reasons above. It's never because I think I know better, it's because I'm making my games the way I want them to be.

 

[morphnet]

1 . I'm discussing the existence of those rules yes, it's the idea,

No you are wanting to discuss changing those rules. To do that you need to give reasons, ideas on how to change it, how to stop / limit negative effects etc. and so far, your reason is cause I want to make dev's change their game and that is no where near a good enough reason to create trouble in thousands of threads and give the staff and mods A LOT more work.

2. F95 is a forum, and I refuse to take my time to educate you about what a forum is.

Right.... So clearly NOT knowing F95 as a forum, you claim it's a better place than patreon or even discord. Even in THIS thread there are multiple discussions, points and members replying and that is your idea of the best place to have A CONVERSATION?
A DM on here, a PM on discord or patreon would be a thousand times better, easier to follow and less likely to get side tracked than a mass replying in a game thread.

This is just further proof you don't know what you are talking about...

3. there are nothing BUT vocal minorities, the tens of thousands of peoples that pass by this forum daily never engage in conversation, the vast majority is passive, silent observer.

You didn't address my point, that the majority of them would NOT check to see if the dev was active, not to mention the speculations of dev's using alt accounts etc. or of how dev's are ignoring comments and screwing the community because they don't reply when they are not even a member etc.

Lets make it simple,

Do you have supporting data that says most of the dev's who are active would be willing to change their games because of this?
Do you have supporting data that says the vocal minority will not turn threads into complete flamezones and chaos?
Do you have supporting data that says the vocal minority will keep these discussions civil?
Do you have supporting data that says the vocal minority will not use this as an excuse to harass and further abuse dev's?
Do you have a way to implement this idea for only the game threads with ACTIVE dev's on this forums?
Do you have a way to stop your idea from causing trouble in game threads where there is NO ACTIVE dev's on this forums?

Have you even drawn up a list of pro's and con's for how your idea will affect the forums?

If you can't even answer those how can you even begin to call this a discussion?

 

[kopiluwak]

What are the reasons for not adding something suggested, even if another game has it? Maybe the dev doesn't like the feature. Maybe it would take too much time. Maybe it clashes with future plans. Or, it could simply be that that don't want to. The list goes on. I rejected several suggestions myself for all the reasons above. It's never because I think I know better, it's because I'm making my games the way I want them to be.

Yes but this is all very speculative, and does it necessarily make comparison forbidden ?

The perspective I try to elaborate amongst screeching monkeys, is that all the good ideas are not in the dev's head alone, maybe the dev never heard of another game (not only western games but asian games, and not only porn games but all games in general) maybe the comparison is pertinent and maybe it's not, that's probably mostly subjective, but does it have to be forbidden ?

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Yes but this is all very speculative, and does it necessarily make comparison forbidden ?

It's forbidden in order to prevent threads from just becoming a bunch of suggested features from people's favorite games, and to stop people from spamming "X game from a veteran dev is way better than Y game from a newbie!"

However, a counterpoint. It's not forbidden in DMs, and usually not forbidden in any discord or patreon/substar I've been in. If people truly believe a game can be made better with some feature from another game, there are plenty of avenues to take. I don't feel that there's a need to derail public threads for it.

 

[XforU]

Can I get one of those "narcissistic echo-chambers" ? Like half the comments I get are complainers (YOU DIDN'T FINISH THE GAME LIKE I WANTED) and people who can't play asking questions and calling features "bugs"...

 

[Echoesinthedarkness]

Can I get one of those "narcissistic echo-chambers" ? Like half the comments I get are complainers (YOU DIDN'T FINISH THE GAME LIKE I WANTED) and people who can't play asking questions and calling features "bugs"...

look, if bugs can be called features, then opposite applies too

 

[kopiluwak]

It's forbidden in order to prevent threads from just becoming a bunch of suggested features from people's favorite games, and to stop people from spamming "X game from a veteran dev is way better than Y game from a newbie!"

However, a counterpoint. It's not forbidden in DMs, and usually not forbidden in any discord or patreon/substar I've been in. If people truly believe a game can be made better with some feature from another game, there are plenty of avenues to take. I don't feel that there's a need to derail public threads for it.

The thread can be derailed in several way, discussing fetish is usually guilty of that (eg. ntr brigade), but I don't think they should make a rule so peoples are not allowed to talk about fetish in the game's thread.

What this place has that discord and patreon (and any other more secluded area of conversation) doesn't is that it's full of different peoples, asking about an opinion on patreon is like asking peoples coming out of bakery if they like bread.

If they are on theses platform it's certainly not because they are antagonist to the dev's vision.