Games comparison and dev's sheltering

[Insomnimaniac Games]

The thread can be derailed in several way, discussing fetish is usually guilty of that (eg. ntr brigade), but I don't think they should make a rule so peoples are not allowed to talk about fetish in the game's thread.

I disagree, if the thread is properly tagged (with a "planned tags section) there's no reason to discuss fetishes at all.

What this place has that discord and patreon (and any other more secluded area of conversation) doesn't is that it's full of different peoples, asking about an opinion on patreon is like asking peoples coming out of bakery if they like bread.

It's also full of people that ask questions that have been answered a post or two above their own. How to use the search bar seems like esoteric knowledge sometimes.

If they are on theses platform it's certainly not because they are antagonist to the dev's vision.

I think there's a bit of a difference between not being antagonistic to the devs vision, and thinking it can be improved. Most discords I know have specific channels for suggestions and such. What discord can do is make it easier for a back and forth, discussing the suggestions and ironing things out much more smoothly. Here, conversations are a bit harder to have. They don't go as quickly or smoothly. Just the nature of a forum vs a dedicated chat app.

Also to note, not everyone in my discord agrees with my decisions. There are actually quite a number of them that have expressed disappointment on the direction I've chosen for certain things. Anecdotal, but not every discord is just an echo chamber.

 

[kopiluwak]

if the thread is properly tagged (with a "planned tags section) there's no reason to discuss fetishes at all.

I can agree with that, but it's under the condition that it's properly tagged and not subject to interpretation, even though at heart, I don't think "less freedom" is ever a good solution to anything.

I think there's a bit of a difference between not being antagonistic to the devs vision, and thinking it can be improved. Most discords I know have specific channels for suggestions and such. What discord can do is make it easier for a back and forth, discussing the suggestions and ironing things out much more smoothly. Here, conversations are a bit harder to have. They don't go as quickly or smoothly. Just the nature of a forum vs a dedicated chat app.

Also to note, not everyone in my discord agrees with my decisions. There are actually quite a number of them that have expressed disappointment on the direction I've chosen for certain things. Anecdotal, but not every discord is just an echo chamber.

well, a hand picked audience is kind of an echo chamber, if you define who can be critical or not, I understand what you say and it's clear that it's more suited for a more relaxed dialogue, but by cheer volume, a forum as more value.

Imposing restriction based on the lowest common denominator isn't the wisest way to go forward, there are shit peoples, uncivilised assholes, but in the "free marketplace of idea" expression of the many is paramount, as a game is successful if it appeal to the many.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Imposing restriction based on the lowest common denominator isn't the wisest way to go forward, there are shit peoples, uncivilised assholes, but in the "free market place of idea" expression of the many is paramount, as a game is successful if it appeal to the many.

Ah, but at the same time we aren't the people who have to deal with it. The mods already have a lot to do, and they're just unpaid volunteers. It would be pretty unfair to impose even more work for them for what I believe would be a minor benefit. I've received plenty of good feedback here, with no mention of other games. I'm sure at least some of that has been from other games.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Okay... We tried, but looks like it time to bring it back.




Icarus Media looks like a future candidate for your list.

 

[Count Morado]

The subject is comparison with other games in thread and review.

while I don't have all other dev's native from F95 main source of backers, I know it's not systematically identical for all devs all the time, some have reported 70%+ of their backers are from F95, but to dispute that F95 added visibility isn't a net positive is just not truthful.

Sure, some devs may even have - SHOCKING - 100% of their supporters from F95. But that backing for more than half of the devs on sites like Patreon mean two things: JACK and SHIT.

The average adult game developer on Patreon who has PAID subscribers brings in about $100 USD per month (after Patreon's 8-12% cut - but before credit card fees, transaction fees, other fees, etc). $100 USD. Even after 4 or more years on Patreon those developers who have PAID subscribers - about 50% bring in LESS than $100 USD.

There are close to 9,000 adult game developers on Patreon. About 2,000 of them have been on Patreon for over a year and have ZERO PAID subscribers. If we added them into the mix, imagine how low the average would be.

Yes, F95 can help. But F95 is a foot in the door, not gold in the bank.

I never understood how people think F95 is this gold mine for developers (even for name recognition) when the main purpose of the site is to take what isn't theirs without paying for it. About 8,000,000 accounts take without any remuneration - ever. At best... AT BEST... 10% subscribe on either Patreon or Subscribestar. The other 90% have never and will never drop a penny on any content they find on this site.

Is that percentage higher for those who might post on this site and not just take and go? Sure. But realize that the median person on F95 has never posted - not even a single time. The average number of posts is 2. Fewer than 2. Now, know that I have posted over 12,000 times. That means there are 6,000 accounts which have never posted, ever, that I offset. They likely never dropped a penny, either (I, myself, have never either).

 

[kopiluwak]

I never understood how people think F95 is this gold mine for developers (even for name recognition) when the main purpose of the site is to take what isn't theirs without paying for it. About 8,000,000 accounts take without any remuneration - ever. At best... AT BEST... 10% subscribe on either Patreon or Subscribestar. The other 90% have never and will never drop a penny on any content they find on this site.

Thank for your input I appreciate it, but this isn't the subject x) AON, is trying to stir the conversation but it really has nothing to do with patreon incomes or f95 influence x) I'm sorry you got involved in this.

it's meant to be a conversation about how comparison is forbidden in game's thread and reviews.

 

[Count Morado]

Thank for your input I appreciate it, but this isn't the subject x) AON, is trying to stir the conversation but it really has nothing to do with patreon incomes or f95 influence x) I'm sorry you got involved in this.

it's meant to be a conversation about how comparison is forbidden in game's thread and reviews.

Comparison is forbidden because there are enough people who do post in game threads - when they see a comparison made about their favorite game to the game in the thread, they want to expound for post after post after post about why their favorite game (not the game for the thread) is GOAT. And then the people who hate that person's favorite game retorts why it is shit. And then the entire thread becomes filled with content about things that are NOT about the game the thread is for - but for dick measuring between ants.

And if you let the door open for simple comparisons - it's a much harder line to control than to simply say "don't do it," especially when there are only handful of volunteer moderators and staff, but nearly quarter of a million threads and thousands of posts daily.

That is the major reason why.

Game threads are supposed to only be about the game the thread is created for.
If you want to compare games - that is what General discussion or off-topic threads are for.

It's pretty simple and pretty common sense.

 

[MissCougar]

I buy fun stuff on Steam to support developers, often knowing about their existence from here, but I'm not big on the Patreon thing. I feel like that helps developers never finish a project, not to mention to stay on Patreon you might need to veer from your vision. Also once you have people paying you they feel like they may own you or some of your time.

I also don't think Patreon is going to be a huge income, and likely won't replace a day job unless you really hit it off. And I also think if you have the skill to make a game you probably already have a lucrative day job that is too good to sacrifice that's likely already taking advantage of that skill.

I enjoy to see people's creativity, which is why I don't even mind AI art- it's tough to make a game of any kind and adding art to it makes it even harder. I value all the people willing to try it and I hope they succeed and hit that Vampire Survivors overnight hit market.

I also recognize that the reality is most won't get much from subscriptions, if anything, and less will hit steam, and of those getting noticed is almost impossible.

Even the Switch marketplace is impotent to find good games on and it's far more curated than Steam. It's tough to be spotted and I think this place gives devs a foot up. I support the devs when they make it to Steam!

 

[someyoungguy]

People have already given a lot of good reasons for this rule, but the broader reason this rule and all the other rules for reviewing games on this site have to exist at all is that you have thousands of people with no media literacy or criticism literacy posting reviews or comments about games that they downloaded and played without even reading the tags or descriptions. The review rules in general are meant to help steer reviews left by people who don't know what a trope is into something actually helpful to potential players. Despite the rules weeding out some of the worst no-effort, no-thought reviews, the reviews on this site are still mostly useless and often boil down to basing reviews on how much reviewers like which tags a game does or doesn't have. Loads of users on this site legitimately think devs decide what tags they want their game to have and then design it around them. They think of tags as immutable indicators of a game's content and they literally can't comprehend when game dev's can't give them a black and white answer to the tags that are going to be in a game because the game's outline isn't just a series of tags running through the dev's head. People this detached from the media they're consuming are responsible for the vast majority of the reviews on this site, and that's why this and other rules around leaving reviews have to exist here.

 

[fyl3toys]

 

[kopiluwak]

Comparison is forbidden because there are enough people who do post in game threads - when they see a comparison made about their favorite game to the game in the thread, they want to expound for post after post after post about why their favorite game (not the game for the thread) is GOAT. And then the people who hate that person's favorite game retorts why it is shit. And then the entire thread becomes filled with content about things that are NOT about the game the thread is for - but for dick measuring between ants.

And if you let the door open for simple comparisons - it's a much harder line to control than to simply say "don't do it," especially when there are only handful of volunteer moderators and staff, but nearly quarter of a million threads and thousands of posts daily.

That is the major reason why.

Game threads are supposed to only be about the game the thread is created for.
If you want to compare games - that is what General discussion or off-topic threads are for.

It's pretty simple and pretty common sense.

I agree with you, and I don't dispute that, as I acknowledged the need to stay on topic and avoid cross promotion, but peoples will be petty and derail threads no matter what, as I said earlier, any reasonable individual would see similarities between two comparable products and propose that one can take inspiration from another.

It's not an intrinsic issue with the action of comparing games, there's nothing wrong with that, the issues you're pointing out is peoples misbehaving, maybe there's another way to go about it rather than restricting speech.

 

[morphnet]

maybe there's another way to go about it rather than restricting speech.

If you want to compare games - that is what General discussion or off-topic threads are for.

 

[Count Morado]

any reasonable individual would see similarities between two comparable products and propose that one can take inspiration from another.

Who is taking inspiration from what? Developers taking inspiration from the ideas from the people who - 90% or so don't pay anything to support their work?

You are making the error in thinking that most of the content threads here have creators who are active in the thread, for one.
Second, you are making the error thinking that a lot of developers really give a shit what freeloaders like us think.
Third, developers who want input from their fans typically open their own discord for such opportunities, or do livestreams, or communicate with supporters in their Patreon or Subscribestar comments.

Any reasonable individual would not assume their opinion means anything to a developer that isn't actively seeking their opinion. Especially if the unsolicited opinion giver is comparing their hard work to some other developer's work that may have no connection in how either does their business.

maybe there's another way to go about it rather than restricting speech.

There are fewer than three dozen volunteer staff and moderators which attempt to keep the peace in the threads.
At any given time, there are around 20,000 to 30,000 registered accounts on the site - Even if only 10% post comments, that's 2,000-3,000 accounts posting comments across any of nearly a quarter of a million threads. About 8,000 new posts just in the last 24 hours.

Also, using the phrase "restricting speech" is overreaching.
Restricting speech has to do with the freedom of speech, such as in the United States of America. That is for the ability of the people to speak out against matters concerning their government and the officials without worry of repercussion from the government.
Private entities, such as this website, have always had the right to maintain control on/in their property, including limiting of topics of conversation to expectations - whether it be in a bar or in a forum.

Two completely different ideas/situations.

That said - what is your idea that is another way, beside simply creating a thread in General Discussions or Off-Topic as has been said in this thread?

 

[anne O'nymous]

At any given time, there are around 20,000 to 30,000 registered accounts on the site - Even if only 10% post comments, that's 2,000-3,000 accounts posting comments across any of nearly a quarter of a million threads. About 8,000 new posts just in the last 24 hours.

If someone doubt about it, two days ago,

You must be registered to see the links

. 20 hours ago,

You must be registered to see the links

. Right now (live from the front page), 15,621,959 posts.
There's sometimes a peak, when two or more popular games have been released during the week, or on special days (10,000 between

You must be registered to see the links

and

You must be registered to see the links

), but globally there's really at least ~8,000 new posts each day, minus the ones deleted by the moderation.

 

[kopiluwak]

Who is taking inspiration from what? Developers taking inspiration from the ideas from the people who - 90% or so don't pay anything to support their work?

You are making the error in thinking that most of the content threads here have creators who are active in the thread, for one.
Second, you are making the error thinking that a lot of developers really give a shit what freeloaders like us think.
Third, developers who want input from their fans typically open their own discord for such opportunities, or do livestreams, or communicate with supporters in their Patreon or Subscribestar comments.

Any reasonable individual would not assume their opinion means anything to a developer that isn't actively seeking their opinion. Especially if the unsolicited opinion giver is comparing their hard work to some other developer's work that may have no connection in how either does their business.

I don't assume that "most content creator" are here, if anything, my beliefs are that most games here are from other, perhaps non-English community, and I would think that in some case they don't even know f95 even exist, let alone care about what is being said here, obviously.

the idea to have this conversation here with the dev himself (granted that the situation allow it) is meant to avoid the positive reinforcement systematic of crowdfunding platform.

Now, I do believe that anyone engaged in any creative process is looking for feedback, and comparative criticism is a quick way to establish a base ground of reference so everyone know precisely what is being talked about.

and beyond the dev of the game, anyone else that is reading theses opinions and comparison can forge their own, whether they are verbally involved in the conversation or not.

There are fewer than three dozen volunteer staff and moderators which attempt to keep the peace in the threads.
At any given time, there are around 20,000 to 30,000 registered accounts on the site - Even if only 10% post comments, that's 2,000-3,000 accounts posting comments across any of nearly a quarter of a million threads. About 8,000 new posts just in the last 24 hours.

Also, using the phrase "restricting speech" is overreaching.
Restricting speech has to do with the freedom of speech, such as in the United States of America. That is for the ability of the people to speak out against matters concerning their government and the officials without worry of repercussion from the government.
Private entities, such as this website, have always had the right to maintain control on/in their property, including limiting of topics of conversation to expectations - whether it be in a bar or in a forum.

Two completely different ideas/situations.

That said - what is your idea that is another way, beside simply creating a thread in General Discussions or Off-Topic as has been said in this thread?

Somehow I don't think allowing for the occasional mention of another game in a thread would unleash chaos, so long as peoples keep to the rules of being respectful and "staying on topic", it's a Shinzo Abe kind of thing, when there's a will there's a way, and peoples that goes in a thread to cause problems will find a way to do so, and invoke the need for moderation.

As for in a review, mentioning similar products and comparing how they did things differently and how one game could have benefited from another, as long as you don't compare pears to apples, that does not spark debate and eliminate the need to describe potentially complex system, it's simple and efficient.

More rules means more avenue for moderation, There's no need for moderation if there's no infringement on the rules, alternatively we can also think of system for self moderation, giving peoples incentives to watch out for wrong doers and taking a load off moderators, we can also think of use of AI to interpret conversation and determine if "it's fair or not".

 

[Count Morado]

More rules means more avenue for moderation, There's no need for moderation if there's no infringement on the rules, alternatively we can also think of system for self moderation, giving peoples incentives to watch out for wrong doers and taking a load off moderators, we can also think of use of AI to interpret conversation and determine if "it's fair or not".

"Fewer rules" is not an idea, in fact it is the antithesis of an idea. It doesn't even give rise more thought than that in response.

As for the use of AI, I don't think you are aware of what it takes nor the cost involved. Do you want a free site or do you want one where you have to pay to access? Because that's what you are choosing with this idea - as well as a greater need for paid staff to manage such an idea.

You are showing signs of a person who is little experienced or has little care throughout our short conversation. While you type a lot, you are saying little to show actual concern for more than what you think would make you happier rather than what makes things work better.

I'm done with this conversation. have a lovely day.

 

[peterppp]

Gotta ask. Do you think we don't play other games? Every dev I know plays a lot of these games.

that's not what i hear, you milker. work on your game!

 

[kopiluwak]

"Fewer rules" is not an idea, in fact it is the antithesis of an idea. It doesn't even give rise more thought than that in response.

As for the use of AI, I don't think you are aware of what it takes nor the cost involved. Do you want a free site or do you want one where you have to pay to access? Because that's what you are choosing with this idea - as well as a greater need for paid staff to manage such an idea.

You are showing signs of a person who is little experienced or has little care throughout our short conversation. While you type a lot, you are saying little to show actual concern for more than what you think would make you happier rather than what makes things work better.

I'm done with this conversation. have a lovely day.

Well I appreciate you engaged in conversation so far, and I'm grateful for your time and opinions, I'm sorry you feel this way, I also wish you have a nice day.

 

[Goeffel]

written without reading the already 3 pages:

deadborn topic.

OP mixes complaint about that rule with "we are forbidden negative views".
EITHER lets discuss that rule - which in my perception isn't as absolute as OP wants to present it - OR lets have another whining topic "buhuhu, only yeasay is allowed".

deadborn.

 

[Ryahn]

Comparison is forbidden because there are enough people who do post in game threads - when they see a comparison made about their favorite game to the game in the thread, they want to expound for post after post after post about why their favorite game (not the game for the thread) is GOAT. And then the people who hate that person's favorite game retorts why it is shit. And then the entire thread becomes filled with content about things that are NOT about the game the thread is for - but for dick measuring between ants.

And if you let the door open for simple comparisons - it's a much harder line to control than to simply say "don't do it," especially when there are only handful of volunteer moderators and staff, but nearly quarter of a million threads and thousands of posts daily.

That is the major reason why.

Game threads are supposed to only be about the game the thread is created for.
If you want to compare games - that is what General discussion or off-topic threads are for.

It's pretty simple and pretty common sense.

This sums up why we dont allow it