Tehemai

Member
Oct 9, 2017
205
268
In part, I think that he is mistaking willing and enjoying. They were intellectually willing, as they knew they would benefit from it, at least in the high elf's case, she was promised something for participating, they just did not enjoy it. Especially the drow, who made it painfully clear how little she enjoyed it, but even she agreed once it was translated for her.

He was considering it, but the response was pretty negative, so I believe he said he would so something else with that story, though we still have to wait and see how he resolves that issue, or if it will be something we can influence with our actions.
To clarify the misunderstanding, I very much understand the difference. But the truth lies in your post. One can claim that they were willing because they technically had a choice. But it is clear they did so because they knew it is in their best interest to say yes, not because they remotely wanted intimacy from said people.

Meaning it really comes down to what you consider willing is. Is someone willing simply on the basis that they said yes? If for example a girl says yes when they are blackmailed into sex, does this make her a willing participant simply because she had a choice to say no and deal with the fallout? Normally we do not consider someone willing when that happens given they were presented with bad choices where neither are desirable.

This is true especially when it relates to sex. You can say they agreed to have sex and be paraded, but to say they are willing is a bit disingenuous as they have no interest in performing the act with the masters. Masters who, while they cannot force themselves on their slaves, could most assuredly "incidentally" give them worse clothes, worse bedding, less food, more chores and so on given their power. In their unfortunate situation, while they technically have a choice it is to their benefit to say yes as an unsatisfied master can make their lives much worse.

As Dennis Reynolds says, if the girls say no then it's no but they would never say no because of the possible implication. He too doesn't see a problem with it, but then again he's presented as a psychopath so take from that what you will.
 
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TheDevian

Svengali Productions
Game Developer
Mar 8, 2018
13,650
31,936
To clarify the misunderstanding, I very much understand the difference. But the truth lies in your post. One can claim that they were willing because they technically had a choice. But it is clear they did so because they knew it is in their best interest to say yes, not because they remotely wanted intimacy from said people.

Meaning it really comes down to what you consider willing is. Is someone willing if they say yes when they are blackmailed into sex? Technically they do have a choice not to give in, by this logic one can claim they are willing participants. But normally we do not consider them willing when given they are presented with a bad choice where neither are desirable. This is true especially when it relates to sex. They cannot say they are truly acting on their own accord here. You can say they agreed to have sex and be paraded, but to say they are willing is a bit disingenuous as they have no interest in performing those actions. They only do it because in their unfortunate situation, it is to their benefit to say yes as the alternatives can make their lives much worse.

As Dennis Reynolds says, if they say no than it's no but they would never say no because of the implication. He too doesn't see a problem with it, but then again he's presented as a psychopath so take from that what you will.
If they were real people, I would be fighting for their rights and freedoms in every way I could. That said, they are not, this scene shows how bad things were, how they are improving, and quite possibly, how much further they can improve thanks the MCs actions there.

Yes, they were not "in to it", just like I was not into most of the jobs I have been made to do, I have had to do some really disgusting shit, I didn't like it, and sure, I had a choice to quit and lose my income and home, but it was "in my best interest" to do it, so I had to stick it out until I found another job, where I could be treated poorly there as well. A whore isn't always into her clients either, but they do their job willingly, because it was the agreement they made when they took the job. All of them could have refused, some did at some points, but they took the job, and most of them did it.

We all have to deal with shit, if you haven't yet, consider yourself lucky (and spoiled). You keep ignoring almost every point everyone makes, they were not coerced into it, they were not threatened, and it was never implied as you keep saying despite how many times you have been told that is not the case. You are injecting things into this that simply are not there.

A normal person sees this scene and wants to help the characters and change their lives for the better, an asshole wants to see them treated worse, and a spoiled brat tries to get the artist to change their story to suit their desires.
 
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Tehemai

Member
Oct 9, 2017
205
268
If they were real people, I would be fighting for their rights and freedoms in every way I could. That said, they are not, this scene shows how bad things were, how they are improving, and quite possibly, how much further they can improve thanks the MCs actions there.

Yes, they were not "in to it", just like I was not into most of the jobs I have been made to do, I have had to do some really disgusting shit, I didn't like it, and sure, I had a choice to quit and lose my income and home, but it was "in my best interest" to do it, so I had to stick it out until I found another job, where I could be treated poorly there as well. A whore isn't always into her clients either, but they do their job willingly, because it was the agreement they made when they took the job. All of them could have refused, some did at some points, but they took the job, and most of them did it.

We all have to deal with shit, if you haven't yet, consider yourself lucky (and spoiled). You keep ignoring almost every point everyone makes, they were not coerced into it, they were not threatened, and it was never implied as you keep saying despite how many times you have been told that is not the case. You are injecting things into this that simply are not there.

A normal person sees this scene and wants to help the characters and change their lives for the better, an asshole wants to see them treated worse, and a spoiled brat tries to get the artist to change their story to suit their desires.
You're mostly correct. Shit like that happens all the time including to myself (though I don't think we can even begin to compare to these poor girls in gravity). Where you go wrong is where you qualify it all as willing. Just because people are put into situations where their best choice is to do something they hate, does not mean they are willing. As shown my example of blackmail. Or shown by the myriad of strict rules around sexual relations wherever any power dynamic exists.

The difference between what you describe (prostitution and the like) and what is happening here is that there is a clear non-optional power dynamic. They are not prostitutes they are slaves. Where they are free to say no, they are not free in general. They cannot simply quit their job once they say no. They only have a few rules with which to work with, easily circumvented by any number of ways and have to live with the master so long as he exerts his power over them by the books. Which is why they needed to commit a violent crime instead of just getting up and moving to MC's house. A writer cannot simply write ignoring this non-optional power dynamic as to pretend there was no coercion.

The story works if it is not willing (rape). The story works if they like having sex with their masters like the tan girl. The story works if the event doesn't happen. But the story does NOT work as is being described. A slave cannot be willing when they hate what they are doing any more than a child is willing when their parents make them do something. They could refuse, but then they would have to face non optional consequences which the government cannot interfere in so long as it doesn't cross a very specific line.

And no where in anything I wrote am I trying to force anything. Someone giving criticism is not the same thing as demanding change. I explicitly stated numerous times that I'm fine with anything the artist ultimately decides and that he should do what he thinks is best. That doesn't mean though that we cannot discuss the merits of the story.

At this point, you seem rather determined on the opinion that you made on the subject, which is totally fine, but as Runey stated earlier in the thread, he made a lengthy answer to explain to you how the scene played out, and while I think that we are always in a right to disagree with someone else's opinion, when the game developer himself answer to clarify things about a plot point and how he perceived things, I believe it can be a somewhat reliable source in terms of what is canon within the story and what is not.

Aside from that, despite the way you see this scene, I believe it is an invaluable one especially in the Lin story Arc, but also in the Lore about the Elves in general, even if it shows a darker side of the story, it is nonetheless necessary to flesh out even more the MC and Lin in their Arc and also give some more insight on the world outside of the Hotel, which is always a welcomed lore addition.

Also, as It have been stated many times by now, they could have easily opt out if they were absolutely not willing and it would have been fine, despite being an Antagonist, Cornwall kinda enacted laws that protects the Eldar against ill-treatment and since the owners participating to the event are Cornwall's associates, I believe he would not tolerate any misconduct from their part and as he has many connections, I have no doubt it would be easy for him to know if something bad happened to one of the Elves and act upon it.
I write all the time too. The thing about writing is that people can lose track or fail to take into account certain factors. That something is canon or intended does not necessarily mean it makes sense or comes off as intended. A writer can write anything. One character can have blue eyes in one scene and comes into the next scene with green eyes. Or one motivation in one scene and the exact opposite in the next. Or in this case being master and slave in one scene and equal terms consensual lovers in the next. Or being willing in one scene and committing violent crimes to avoid the situation in the next. Whether or not they take everything into consideration is part of what differentiates between a good story and a bad story. And why feedback such as this is valuable.

And the problem is Cornwall isn't god. He can't stop what he doesn't see, nor can he prove someone's intention in every action they take. It doesn't matter what he intends because the rules themselves allow the masters infinite room to coerce their slaves. There can always be consequences because they are neither free nor independent. And if they don't like the actual act then the only other sensible reason for them accepting is that their decision is being influenced by such consequences.
 
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Kojj4

Member
Nov 7, 2018
226
450
Well, This is just a game. The first time I played it I was surprised, it's a fantasy game, it's a sexual game. I do not know where this discussion took place and I do not know what's going on, but fantasy games are particularly meant for people who want some kind of fantasy, I'm not saying that it's an influence on practicing something, but it's just a game where you will work your hand.
Sorry but I can't wait for 0.7 tomorrow.
 
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Oldtoothlessbasterd

Active Member
Jan 7, 2019
500
1,233
Umm I don't like foot jobs or Futa,
So can Runey change the game and remove those 2 scenes?,
Simply because i don't like it and don't see how it benefits the games story?.

Nah its part of a story being told by someone else that is done well, Even if it has a few scenes I'm not into.
I can always ignore a scene or two that I'm not into, if the story is good and the game is fun.
After all its a fictional world and the characters are NOT real people.
No point whining on about a scene or two that makes no sense to me!
 

Runey

Harem Hotel
Game Developer
May 17, 2018
3,939
19,494
It will be nice, to also play the bug free version.
Tomorrow isn't the public release, it's the Pre Release ($20). 5 days after will be the Pre Release ($5). 1 Week after will be the public release.

I think all of those bugs from Beta 3 - 5 have been fixed by now, but there will be bugs in the Pre Release ($20) version. Unless I somehow managed to not make a single bug, that would be surprising.

Could still come out on here tomorrow if it's leaked. But I just mean to say it wont be the bug free public release you may have expected.
 

Greyvan

Member
Mar 28, 2018
108
207
Even without taking the work needed in account, the sheer weight of an fully customisable Harem Hotel would be enormous x)
 
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