Help me understand how plagiarism/theft is so wrong

[Jack Madrigal]

Is it easier or harder to make a living with art when anyone else can just take your shit and profit off it it without permission or compensation?

You call yourself the romantic, but I am the one actually defending the safe-guards that protect artists and allow them to continue to make a living doing art (within the confines of our very flawed capitalist system).

If the person you sell a sculpture to takes it and without permission makes a million copies, and then sells them all far cheaper than you can afford to make them yourself (e.g. economies of scale), that's perfectly fine with you? Instead of buyers coming to you for your sculpture, you're really okay with someone else undercutting you with an identical copy that you get nothing from?

How about the the same as above, but they just copied one of your artworks onto a t-shirt, and proceeded to sell millions of them at $100 a pop? Still okay with getting nothing in return? If so, why are you cool with being exploited?

I'll try to answer you by the menu, even if this start to look like prosecution.

- Make a living out of ART is hard, and perhaps I failed to communicate you my point of view because we don't have the same understanding of what Art is, which is unfortunately an insoluble problem, but from my perspective someone competent at using photoshop isn't necessarily an artist, it's first and foremost a technician, when on the other hand, Art is the process of using whatever medium to communicate a feeling, an idea, etc.

therefore you can perfectly well make a life for yourself working as a technician and earning a wage, but not as an artist if you take a whole two years of torturing a goddamn canvas because you're not happy with a texture (lol).

and after that, if someone copy it somehow and sell them to a hundred thousand peoples, well that wasn't MY intention to sell a thousand times my painting, because I didn't had mercantile intent in the first place, I don't live in a hypothetical world of "what if" and missed opportunities, I'm not gonna regret not doing something I never intended to do in the first place, so to me, it look like misplaced greed and jealousy.

However picking a side of "good against evil" and arguing as if any of what we're saying here has any impact on the course of the world is a tad bit presumptuous. I'm not enforcing anything on anyone but then again, neither are you.

But to get back to my original question, at what point does theft become unethical for you? If stealing art is okay, what about stealing food? Or a car? What theft is not okay, why is it not okay, and how does that reasoning not apply to art? Do you actually have any sort of a consistent ethical framework, or is this all just on-the-fly hippy vibes for you?

I don't like that tone, there's no need to attack me personally just because I don't align with you on everything.
but to answer your question I believe it's about intent and purposes, and the context, maybe I steal for the good of other peoples, maybe I killed to protect.

bad peoples doing bad thing are the exception, not the rule, making a law and punishing indiscriminately everyone for the misdeed of one is wrong, and even if it doesn't seem much, even if it seem reasonable, it's a step forward in the direction of totalitarianism.

the world isn't becoming a better place as time goes by, because we make decision out of fear of what may happen, but this is an entirely whole other discussion.

Then maybe you need to work on explaining yourself? "there's nothing wrong with plagiarism..." is a broad and absolutist statement that I find to be unequivocally false. In the various examples I've presented, I've demonstrated why these protections exist and how they benefit creatives and academics.

Apparently you don't think you need copyright protection, and anyone else who does is just in it for their ego? A you for real now? What gilded mountain top do you rest upon? If only the rest of us were so lucky, our every needs and whims taken care of so succinctly, that we too could just waste our days being creative purely for the joy of it with no thought for the morrow.

No, everyone else who's being creative as an actual job? Who earn their wage and pay their bills by being creative? All just a bunch of ego stroking attention whores, the lot of them.

It's not wrong, for the same reason a knife isn't evil out if itself, plagiarism isn't wrong by default, you presented opinions, what you believe and how you feel about it make no practical sense either you're for or against it, what if I stole a thousand ideas from a thousand different peoples, could you tell ? going as far as putting a copyright on colors, techniques, format etc. is detrimental and is a clear roadblock for artistic development. If I can't express myself however I want as an Artist, you're not helping me.

And yes, ego is a thing, and I'd go as far as saying it's the most predominant thing in humanity, pride and vanity, desperately seeking approbation, trying to stand above everyone else because you think you're someone, you're better, you're important.

If someone is so desperatly seeking attention, it's his problem, not mine, and no one should be forced to abide to someone living in a house of mirrors.

once again, the artistic process isn't a factory job, and you're not an artist because you WANT money and fame, and jealously keeping your creations "safe" like a greedy goblin will not help you. because no matter how much law you think you have on your side, if there's someone in china that print my drawings on t-shirt, there's nothing in the world I can do to stop it, believing otherwise is fatuous.

That is comically absurd, and I feel that warped perspective can only come from a person who's either never known hardship, or severely lacking in human empathy. I don't have any other explanation. I am just aghast at how out of touch with reality you seemingly are.

You obviously have never spent a single day in your life trying to put bread on the table by being creative. If you had, I wouldn't need to explain in excoriating detail just how wrong it is for others to take that away from you.

I won't make any comments on this.

 

[Jack Madrigal]

being a technician does not preclude one from being an artist

but from my perspective someone competent at using photoshop isn't necessarily an artist

abstain from participating in a conversation if you're not even reading who you're answering to in the first place, it's either that or you don't understand what you're reading.

This makes a lot of assumptions and attacks people's character. Just because you opt to not make money on your efforts doesn't mean other people shouldn't. Just because other people want to make money off their work doesn't mean they have "misplaced greed and jealousy."

I'm sharing an opinion, I'm not telling you how to put your pants on.

If you're starving to death and you steal food you are still doing something unethical.

I hope you're trolling.

At this point you feel like a hypocrite. You got upset for being asked if this is all based on "on the fly hippy vibes" but then you turn around and just call everyone that doesn't agree with you a proud "greedy goblin." This whole paragraph is also definitively false.

I sincerely hope you're trolling, it's mind-numbing.

for the sake of keeping this thread healthy, I'll ignore you from now on, you're clearly not able to participate in a conversation,

ta-ta

 

[qwoppe]

You mean continuing a dead game? Nothing immoral about it, just kind of silly imo considering how easy it was for everyone to understand the criticism of "it felt like watching fanfiction" when discussing the new Star Wars trilogy.

It won't feel like the original game if someone else does it, provided the game was good enough to be worth continuing in the first place. I'm sure there's a few very specific exceptions to this, but for the most part, everyone's a different enough artist for them to output differently-feeling stuff, at least when it comes to stuff made by solo devs or small teams.

On the other hand, if its essence of the original game was a simple thing to capture and duplicate, you might as well just make something from scratch and put in all the personal touches you want, like all the NTR Legend-inspired games. "Just come up with your own thing", as you said.

 

[Death Panda]

maybe I steal for the good of other peoples, maybe I killed to protect.

I understand it's hard to make a living as an art student these days, but you can't simply start killing certain peoples because they are greedy, that's not how ethics works.

 

[Jack Madrigal]

I understand it's hard to make a living as an art student these days, but you can't simply start killing certain peoples because they are greedy, that's not how ethics works.

damn... not even the ones that are so savagely stupid they alone establish a legitimate cause for genocide ?

 

[♍VoidTraveler]

Yes. Thoughts are not property, suggesting otherwise is monstrous.

Now that's funny.
If that's true then why do we treat our creations, that came about due to our thoughts, as property?
For example if there's some unique picture in your mind, and then you manifest it unto reality with your skills, it still came about due to your thoughts no? So if thoughts aren't property, then why works that came from thoughts are?

Your thoughts are your property, nothing particularly monstrous about it.
The concept of selling ideas isn't exactly new or anything.

 

[Death Panda]

If that's true then why do we treat our creations, that came about due to our thoughts, as property?
For example if there's some unique picture in your mind, and then you manifest it unto reality with your skills, it still came about due to your thoughts no? So if thoughts aren't property, then why works that came from thoughts are?

This is ridiculously reductive on it's own, but also, by your logic, the air in my lungs is also my property because I used it in creating something. That's simply not how property works.

 

[♍VoidTraveler]

This is ridiculously reductive on it's own, but also, by your logic, the air in my lungs is also my property because I used it in creating something. That's simply not how property works.

The air is the product of the planet so it belongs to the planet, it is a gift to us all.
Your thoughts however are yours alone, until you share them that is.

 

[Jack Madrigal]

your thoughts really are yours if they're from foreign influences ? Is it your idea or something that was put in your mind ? EGO want to believe he's is own person, but you've been created, you've been influenced, you've been told how to think, talk and lace your shoes. to what extend I'm me, and how much I'm what the world made me ?

Property is a social construct, it's an concept we share so we get merit for what we own, to make us unique in some way, property exist because you choose to believe it exist.

 

[EvolutionKills]

I'll try to answer you by the menu, even if this start to look like prosecution.

- Make a living out of ART is hard, and perhaps I failed to communicate you my point of view because we don't have the same understanding of what Art is, which is unfortunately an insoluble problem, but from my perspective someone competent at using photoshop isn't necessarily an artist, it's first and foremost a technician, when on the other hand, Art is the process of using whatever medium to communicate a feeling, an idea, etc.

therefore you can perfectly well make a life for yourself working as a technician and earning a wage, but not as an artist if you take a whole two years of torturing a goddamn canvas because you're not happy with a texture (lol).

and after that, if someone copy it somehow and sell them to a hundred thousand peoples, well that wasn't MY intention to sell a thousand times my painting, because I didn't had mercantile intent in the first place, I don't live in a hypothetical world of "what if" and missed opportunities, I'm not gonna regret not doing something I never intended to do in the first place, so to me, it look like misplaced greed and jealousy.

However picking a side of "good against evil" and arguing as if any of what we're saying here has any impact on the course of the world is a tad bit presumptuous. I'm not enforcing anything on anyone but then again, neither are you.

That is elitist bullshit.

The idea that only the 'classical' forms are true art, and everyone else is just a poor laborer? Forgive my French here, but fuck that!

The world is filled with art and artists. Concept artists for games, movies, and television. Web designers, interface designers, and UI designers in games. Comics books and web comics. Car, motorcycle, and plane designers. The phone in your pocket, the computer at your desk; multiple artists had a hand in helping to design those. Art is far more than sculptures and painting, and always has been.



^ This 1995 Honda VF750C Magna De Lux is art. Good industrial design with an eye for aesthetics is art. ^

How sad is your world, where the only 'art' that exists is that which is displayed in museums?

Also, you never engage with hypothetical what-if scenarios? Have you never seen or read fiction? Or are you just such a dullard that you'd fail out of Introduction to Ethics class after the teacher kicked you out for refusing to engage with any of the material?



You can engage with the

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without needing to tie people up and leave them for dead on an actual train track. Just sayin'...

I don't like that tone, there's no need to attack me personally just because I don't align with you on everything.
but to answer your question I believe it's about intent and purposes, and the context, maybe I steal for the good of other peoples, maybe I killed to protect.

bad peoples doing bad thing are the exception, not the rule, making a law and punishing indiscriminately everyone for the misdeed of one is wrong, and even if it doesn't seem much, even if it seem reasonable, it's a step forward in the direction of totalitarianism.

the world isn't becoming a better place as time goes by, because we make decision out of fear of what may happen, but this is an entirely whole other discussion.

Chill, you are not the fucking Dark Knight here. Asking a series of questions is not attacking someone, it's called the Socratic Method. I am trying to lead you to engage with a series of ideas to reveal just how absurd your position is by testing it.

That being said, your refusal to engage with my questions in lieu of spewing out a pile of unrelated nonsense makes me think that this entire conversation is a waste of my time. There is only so much you can learn when only one side is engaging in the conversation honestly.

For the record folks, these where the simple questions they refused to engage with.

But to get back to my original question, at what point does theft become unethical for you? If stealing art is okay, what about stealing food? Or a car? What theft is not okay, why is it not okay, and how does that reasoning not apply to art? Do you actually have any sort of a consistent ethical framework, or is this all just on-the-fly hippy vibes for you?

Instead, we got a wild tangent about being The Batman and sliding into totalitarianism. So let the record stand, it is all just on-the-fly hippy vibes.

It's not wrong, for the same reason a knife isn't evil out if itself, plagiarism isn't wrong by default, you presented opinions, what you believe and how you feel about it make no practical sense either you're for or against it, what if I stole a thousand ideas from a thousand different peoples, could you tell ? going as far as putting a copyright on colors, techniques, format etc. is detrimental and is a clear roadblock for artistic development. If I can't express myself however I want as an Artist, you're not helping me.

Sweet holy hell. You have no idea. Literally no idea. I've been arguing over copyright protection and plagiarism with someone who has zero fucking idea what those words actually mean. I'm here trying to run a marathon, and you can't even tie your shoes properly...

What are you even doing here?

You can't copyright a thought or idea, nor colors, nor techniques or format. That you'd say such just indicates how ignorant you are of the topics being discussed.

For the record, this started because you claimed 'there's nothing wrong with plagiarism...', and plagiarism is defined as "to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source" per the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Plagiarism is definitionally theft, and thus you effectively claimed that there is nothing wrong with theft; and all of this so far has been trying to drill down to the core in search of any foundation or nuance for that position. Instead all we've seen is a refusal from you to honestly engage combined with your ignorance of the subject matter.

And yes, ego is a thing, and I'd go as far as saying it's the most predominant thing in humanity, pride and vanity, desperately seeking approbation, trying to stand above everyone else because you think you're someone, you're better, you're important.

If someone is so desperatly seeking attention, it's his problem, not mine, and no one should be forced to abide to someone living in a house of mirrors.

The idea that 'most predominant thing in humanity' is ego, and that's the issue, is patently absurd. The vast majority of humanity is, sadly, largely concerned with basic human necessities. Food, water, shelter, safety. Ego, self esteem, and recognition are generally things you worry about after all of your other more basic needs are met. Those worried about ego are those who have the privilege of not being concerned where their next meal is coming from or where they will safely sleep tonight.

Again, what gilded mountaintop do you live on?

once again, the artistic process isn't a factory job, and you're not an artist because you WANT money and fame, and jealously keeping your creations "safe" like a greedy goblin will not help you. because no matter how much law you think you have on your side, if there's someone in china that print my drawings on t-shirt, there's nothing in the world I can do to stop it, believing otherwise is fatuous.

See that folks? Creative people who want to make a living being creative? Not true artists. More elitist bullshit.

Also, notice how they will toss out hypothetical what-if scenarios when it suits them, but completely refuse to engage with the series of prior examples as part of the Socratic Method. So they're not complete idiots, but rather intellectual cowards afraid to honestly engage with the subject matter.

I won't make any comments on this.

For the record folks, what they cannot comment on was this.

That is comically absurd, and I feel that warped perspective can only come from a person who's either never known hardship, or severely lacking in human empathy. I don't have any other explanation. I am just aghast at how out of touch with reality you seemingly are.

You obviously have never spent a single day in your life trying to put bread on the table by being creative. If you had, I wouldn't need to explain in excoriating detail just how wrong it is for others to take that away from you.

If it wasn't already abundantly clear just how out of touch with reality this person is, it should be by now. This person doesn't understand the basic definitions of the concepts they're pontificating about, and refuses to engage with them in good faith.

I think we're all done here with this farce.

 

[EvolutionKills]

I'm not sure these are quite comparable. Air in your lungs is transient, it's there for so short a period that it's borderline irrelevant whether the air in your lungs is your property. You could make an argument for it though if one really wanted to. I kind of wonder about your stance on whether or not you own your blood.

Thoughts being property is the basis for intellectual property. You thought up a thing and thus you own it. You thought up a story and thus you have the copyright(/ownership) of that story. You think up and design an invention and you get the patent for it. So thoughts can be claimed and owned which means they can be property. Most thoughts just don't have value.

It also takes some work. You don't get credit for just the idea, you need to do the work. If the Star Wars film hadn't been made, then all of those ideas floating in George Lucas' head wouldn't have the value they do now.

I'm reminded of

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. The Russians like to claim they invented stealth aircraft because the research paper that inspired the working theory behind stealth aircraft was that of a Russian scientist. But no, they didn't build the aircraft. Credit goes to those who worked on and built the first operational stealth aircraft, Lockheed's Skunk Works for their F-117 Nighthawk. You gotta do the work to get credit.

 

[Death Panda]

You guys argue amongst yourselves/jerk each other off about who is the most bad faith poster in a thread about "why is theft wrong." I will continue eagerly awaiting the day I can download all the cars.

 

[Jack Madrigal]

That being said, your refusal to engage with my questions in lieu of spewing out a pile of unrelated nonsense makes me think that this entire conversation is a waste of my time. There is only so much you can learn when only one side is engaging in the conversation honestly.

Evrything that you have been posting so far is precisely that, you can't defeat my argument by having a conversation, and confronting our respective ideas, so you attack me.

You completely derailed because you can't fathom someone not sharing your view of the world, as if ANY of what you said is a FACT rather then a mere OPINION, I really hate to break it to you, talking about gilded mountain top.

It's a shame really, because you're not stupid, but we're not in an arena, fighting, and you calling for a fictional crowd to cheer you as if it was about "winning" anything.

If you had any semblance of wisdom, you would take ideas that contradict yours, reflect on them, and grow as an individual.

I wish you well on your merry way to go and "win arguments on the internet".

 

[EvolutionKills]

Evrything that you have been posting so far is precisely that, you can't defeat my argument by having a conversation, and confronting our respective ideas, so you attack me.

You don't have an argument. You have hippy vibes. There is nothing to defeat. You don't have anything more than a feeling. You feel you are correct, but you utterly fail in any attempt to articulate it beyond your feelings. You can feel that 2 plus 2 equals 7, but when someone else disagrees and has the work to back it up, yelling 'you can't defeat my argument' and running away isn't a good look (or how you actually win an argument).

I tried to get you to actually engage. To actually work though the logic of what you said, and work through the conclusions. I asked you a dozen questions, none of which you answered.

You completely derailed because you can't fathom someone not sharing your view of the world, as if ANY of what you said is a FACT rather then a mere OPINION, I really hate to break it to you, talking about gilded mountain top.

A short summary of events...

1 - You made an assertion.
2 - I disagreed, and ask you to back up that assertion.
3 - You refused to defend your position.
4 - I pointed out how you refused to engage with the substance of the discussion.
5 - You claimed I was attacking you for asking questions.
6 - I lost patience when you showed you were working off of moon logic and custom definitions.

Not all opinions are created equally. There are opinions, and then there are educated opinions. Everyone has the former, but the later takes some work. We both have opinions about plagiarism. But while you backed up your opinions with feelings and vibes, I backed mine up with fact, definitions, and specific examples. When I asked you specific questions to try to get you to explore your own position through thought experiments, you refused.

It's a shame really, because you're not stupid, but we're not in an arena, fighting, and you calling for a fictional crowd to cheer you as if it was about "winning" anything.

If you had any semblance of wisdom, you would take ideas that contradict yours, reflect on them, and grow as an individual.

How am I supposed to 'reflect on them', when you've provided nothing to reflect on? I was trying to get to the core argument, the actual 'why' that leads you to claim 'there's nothing wrong with plagiarism...', but we never got that far. All you talked about was unrelated nonsense about killing for the greater good and other tangents. You spent your words denigrating working creatives instead of explaining your reasoning, or answering any of the questions that would have allowed me to better understand your thought process.

But I can only do that for so long before I'm forced to conclude that I'm dealing with someone who just doesn't know or care enough to be honest.

I wish you well on your merry way to go and "win arguments on the internet".

I would much rather you just honestly answer my questions, rather than doing nothing but evasively sidestep them in favor of going off on unrelated tangents.

I try not to be unreasonable. I am not a moral or ethical absolutist. Ethics are a gradient, and I think exploring them is interesting. So exploring the possibility where theft might be ethical or even moral justified? I am genuinely interested in having that discussion, exploring that possibility. I was interested in having that conversation, to see if someone making the claim 'there's nothing wrong with plagiarism...' could actually back that up with reasons, logic, or examples. I would be happy to engage with a good counter-example or argument that could withstand some scrutiny. Give me something, anything, to actually work with.

But nope. You answered specific examples and direct questions with wild tangents and nonsense. You had zero interest in backing up your assertion after you made it. Now you are acting like this is all a popularity contest just because you can't defend your own assertion. It's not my fault you can't talk your way out of a wet paper bag and I'm not the only one noticing it.

I mean, sure, I 'won' this argument. Insofar as one can 'win' a game of chess with a Pidgeon. Big whoop.

Spoiler: Pigeon Chess

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TL;DR - Dunning–Kruger Effect strikes again?

 

[| Vee |]

I won't discuss legal side as you may know it already but will say this.

No Versatility = No Effort Dev

You want to become like thousands with same content and minor changes OR you want to become someone who adds something into it. Choice is yours. Why would people buy your content if there are already ton of others like that. Humans crave change as much as we don't like to admit it.

 

[Jack Madrigal]

You don't have an argument. You have hippy vibes.

oh my child, my precious child, you think way too much of yourself, tame your ego, you're hostile since the beginning, being judgmental, I've already determined that we don't have the same definition of what Art is, perhaps you think "being an Artist" is a status of prestige, but there's nothing wrong with being a skillful craftsman, it's just not the same thing.

Once again you're throwing fists in the air like an angry child

When I asked you specific questions to try to get you to explore your own position through thought experiments, you refused.

I refused to talk about me, this isn't about me, or you, it's a discussion and you failed at every step to keep it civil.

I try not to be unreasonable. I am not a moral or ethical absolutist. Ethics are a gradient, and I think exploring them is interesting. So exploring the possibility where theft might be ethical or even moral justified? I am genuinely interested in having that discussion, exploring that possibility. I was interested in having that conversation, to see if someone making the claim 'there's nothing wrong with plagiarism...' could actually back that up with reasons, logic, or examples. I would be happy to engage with a good counter-example or argument that could withstand some scrutiny. Give me something, anything, to actually work with.

I did, you just chose to ignore what I said, or discard it over judgemental preconception that it's just me being a hippie. but you absolutely believe at the core you're on the moral high-ground and that your specific concept of reality can't be challenged, so judge and brazenly insult me, I'm not enjoying talking to you so I'm leaving, that's that.

I wish you all the best in the world

 

[EvolutionKills]

I wish you all the best in the world

No, you obviously do not. So maybe just save us all the dog and pony show and piss off?