Full deterministic games where the player has complete knowledge can quickly lead to degenerate game play as the players learn a single optimal path and never deviate.
Full deterministic games where the player has limited knowledge can quickly lead to pixel bashing/scene spinning game play as the players try to discover what they need to do next.
Partially random games where the player has complete knowledge can lead to save scumming as the players try to force the game onto the optimal path.
Partially random games where the player has limited knowledge can quickly lead to save-heavy games and reloads as the player ventures down a few paths trying to figure out enough about the situation and its consequences too determine which, if any, are acceptable.
A couple of examples from games on the site:
Full Deterministic, limited knowledge
Wife Trainer suffers from players being incapable of reasonably planning because each woman is unique with different responses and different actions the trainer can take. Those actions have both an immediate impact and often a less obvious secondary impact. Since training time is a play constraint, a player cannot try them all. Thus, a player cannot make an informed choice until the 2nd or 3rd playthrough having seen the immediate and longer term results of the initial choices and recorded the ones that appear optimal/pleasing. Since the trainer is expected to be more competent and experienced than the player is at training women, it would make a better game if the player were given stronger cues as to expected results/purpose of each option -- especially the unique options. Why should I consider taking this woman on a road trip on the weekend? What are we going to see/do? What do I expect to gain? Walkthroughs -- either self constructed or community -- are a must if the player wants to hit any specific goals.
Partially random, (mostly) complete knowledge
Superpowered allows a player to generally plan and then be forced to react to the random element -- which women will appear in this timeslot? How much attention will the MC pay in class? What event will occur while on patrol? Some of the variations in result are large enough to incent save scumming. Walkthroughs are more akin to strategy guides -- accomplish this before starting that. A few of the game elements are surprises or poorly telegraphed inside the game and are play is improved by more extensive explanation.
I agree, when you treat games as game, pre programmed software, there are always going to be ways players alter the experience to something different than what the creator intended.
Now in general this seems to be talking about general goals. ie getting power ups in a particular order, responding to particular questions in a particular order, or leveling a stat to a certain point to break the game or at least make it easier.
I think I was still thinking in terms of immersive goals, when talking with
jezzoo. for example, what is there to do in a sandbox, what would make it interesting, and in your case what will players do to milk the system.
But what about a system that is, maybe completely deterministic, but is multi-ordered and multidimensional to add extreme complexity?
Multidimentional meaning, the are lots of stats to check, like in an rpg, using charisma, intelligence and perception through out a conversation to notice the lies.
Multi-ordered meaning, only some stats can be increased, and by increasing them you either can start to increases other stats, or you unlock the ability to now work on increasing the other stats, requiring users to progress in a particular way.
basically a complex rpg system.
If most of this is hidden stat checks, you may not know how to go about reaching a particular goal. The only way to cheat the system is for someone to eventually figure out a way to do things, make a guide, and then someone follows the walk through. Does doing this help minimize players ability to cheese the system, or does this make the game worse do to the lack of information, unable for players to improve on their own?
It sounds like there could be an argument of information = fun vs information = cheating the system thus avoiding the fun.
But here is a thought I had last night that could change the arguments. What information are we dealing with? So far it is something like, I want to unlock this character, what do I need to do? and this leads to the above debate question.
If I did carry on with my sand box idea, what would make a sand box fun? Well in order to fulfill its need to deliver fast rewards, then that means there must be a low barrier to overcome. So the amount of information needed is little to none. But then what makes the game fun if everything is already unlocked? That's what was bothering me the other night. I was thinking in terms of lewd content and sex games and getting no where. Now I know I am not much of a reader in games, but I do think context is important, so I tried to think in more broad terms.
I think what keeps a story fun or interesting, is constant conflict. There is always that one goal, and there is always something in the way. With that in mind, you could work with a simple model of, you have a game with a particular goal outlined to players, with each step pointed out to you along the way. this minimizes the lack of information, you just need to follow instruction, like a walking simulator aka renpy. But since it could be said that the final goal is the eternal struggle, long term goal, then the game is no longer delivering on the quick rewards I want to be able to offer in games or seek out in games.
In many games there are lots of side characters to try to keep players interested while they grind through the main story, and often the main story doesn't even seem that interesting (my character wants $XXX money to buy a mansion to get all the girls, why can't they just be happy with few nice girls he's met already, hell he's even fucked a few, why does he still want the mansion, just get married already!) But what if these side characters were the main goal, and progressing along the long term goal only helped with that?
for example, in some games like degrees of lewditiy or trap quest, just about everything is fuckable, so little needs to be done to unlock this. But to unlock particular interactions, you have to unlock characters or go down a particular tree branch of development, such as being a slave. Often going down this branch can result in limiting what the player can do. IE they can no longer hang out with one character if the want to unlock this other character, or other gameplay choices. I find I don't really like this type of design choice myself. What if instead, the long term plan just unlocks more content.
So the game is still low barrier to entry, everyone is fuckable, each character may have their own side quest before unlocking them, but in general you are told what to do so that most of the information is available, and since it is all about doing the mission and assuming you can't fail if you simply try, there is no need to cheese the game system to get better results. Likewise for the long term plans, things are told to you and hints given, and the long terms plan just unlocks more content. ie new areas with new npcs, or maybe 'to do more of the butt stuff, get ass groped 5 more times. Hint, use public transit.' With the general idea being, you can only win more, you don't really lose.
The only example I can really think of where you lose something even though you are winning and growing is innocence. What if you want characters to still be shy and embarrassed, what if you still want characters to be shocked and surprised, intimidated or scared? You often lose these things as the player or other characters become more familiar with things or as more things are unlocked. A simple work around is magic, Being able to revert characters back or in general control the game. Thus its not so much that players have the information they need to control the game to get the results they want, but rather they have the tools in game to get the results they want. And if it is not provided directly, but rather unlocked through game mechanics that take time and effort, if this alone provided the need amount of challenge to keep the game interesting without slowing progression to personal goals too much, would this system resolve both issues. The issue that there is enough that players can execute a plan without issue, and need not cheese the system?
