Others I want to make my own VN. What elements of game development should I use that would make a great VN?

[Hopeless Idiot]

Hi Guys,

I want to start making VN mainly using Ren'py. I know they are tons of great games on this site like Mythic Manor, Lucky Paradox, etc... for various reasons and had years worked on them.
Personally, I would like to know what you would recommend to make a good VN standout. Also can you tell me somethings that I shouldn't do during game development?

Thanks

 

[Losersriot]

tegs:
1) female protagonist
2) romantice
3) male domination
4) female pov
not use DAZ, use UE/U for creating picture and video animations, after thet add it in RenPy.
5) realistic setting (not anime, not scifi, not fantasy, not any another prepuberty fucking crap)
Use ZEBRUSH to create UNIQUE models.

 

[lemonfreak]

Hi Guys,

I want to start making VN mainly using Ren'py. I know they are tons of great games on this site like Mythic Manor, Lucky Paradox, etc... for various reasons and had years worked on them.
Personally, I would like to know what you would recommend to make a good VN standout. Also can you tell me somethings that I shouldn't do during game development?

Thanks

To stand out there are 2 tactics that have a chance of working:

1. You make the game you desperately want to play but can't because it doesn't exist
2. You cynically work out the correct combination of niche fetishes that will attract a specific audience that may over-support you.

It's not a bad idea to have your story written (or at least mapped out) before putting out the first release; players will try to alter your vision to suit themselves so you need to be able to resist the temptation to capitulate to their wishes.

 

[MissFortune]

Personally, I would like to know what you would recommend to make a good VN standout.

It depends. What is your personal metric for success? Is it Patreons, or simply people enjoying your game? There's standing out in a visual and written way, and then there's standing out in the niche way. Have you ever seen a VN about a mortician and his daughter raping the corpses that come through? Probably not, because necrophilia is niche. It's a small sect who enjoy watching dead bodies get toyed with. Have you seen a VN with a father/son conquering his entirely (and conveniently all female) family and making a harem? Sure, if not even being beyond generic at this point.

Writing is your friend. Make a good story and people will follow. Add good visuals to that and you've got yourself a recipe for success. I think the strongest stories are of those in which the author/writers have had personal experience(s) with. Think ZoeyRaven(sp?) with One Day at a Time. She(?) has clearly had experience with addiction, it's effects, and coming out of it. It makes for a strongly written story, as she's already a competent writer, but based more in the fact that she understands the subtle undertones of it. Perhaps that's the stereotype of addicts and how they're treated, and so forth. There's a reality there, and I think it's writing like that that tends to draw people in. That's not to say a Sci-fi can't do the same thing, but it's inherently harder to pull off as it isn't grounded in something people can relate to. So, for something like that, you may want to throw in a more human aspect to it. Something that transcends time or worlds, something that humans will likely always struggle with/deal with.

Also can you tell me somethings that I shouldn't do during game development?

Do you. Don't let fans force your story in their direction. Don't let people who hate a fetish drag you for a genre/fetish you enjoy. People who enjoy it will do the work for you. Make what you want to make and have fun doing. Otherwise, what's the point? You aren't and shouldn't be doing this for the money, or go into it expecting to make a living off of it. Don't feed the trolls, especially the NTR-hating crowd. Bunch of masochists that jump into a thread just to start shit about a fetish they dislike. Ignore the people that are simply there to talk shit or have no idea what they're talking about (Losersriot, for example, is one of them.), but pay attention to the well-worded criticisms of your work. Those will almost always certainly be helpful in some way or another. Perhaps not directly to the point they were making, but perhaps later on. But it also means that people are paying attention - and are enjoying it. They wouldn't be giving well-written, thought out criticisms of your work if they didn't want to see it in its best form.

 

[Hopeless Idiot]

Thanks for your advice guys

 

[HotVenusStudios]

Thanks for your advice guys

I got a story idea if you'd like to chat

 

[fyl3toys]

I'm in the process of finishing up a screenplay for my 1st VN. So I'm not sure how relevant it will be, but I figured the most important part for me was actually going through and playing a number of games in my niche, and then asking myself what I thought worked and didn't work about those games.
I've written a number of short stories over the years, but since a VN is 50% V I decided to research screenplay guidelines and tips, and it's really helped me flesh out my story.
I'm also in the process of teaching myself DAZ, but I have a long ways to go so I imagine I'm going to put up a request here for a partner to work with me at some point.
But really.....
A good story and dialogue can turn out to be so very important.

 

[CurvyLinesEverywhere]

When you don't understand something, Google it.

Making the best possible version of your game, is always better than making a mediocre version of an existing game.

Figure out what you like. Play lots of games in that niche. Get inspired. Imagine something even better than what's already out there.

Learn as much as you can about your game engine, your art pipeline, and your niche.

Learn as much as you can about writing and storytelling. (They are different skills.) Come up with your story, then write your first draft, or at least a loose design document with main routes, events and emotional beats.

Learn as much as you can about Art, in general. Concept, Form, Color, Line, Shape, Anatomy, Lighting, Composition, Framing, all that good stuff. The book Understanding Comics is an excellent primer on visual sequential storytelling. If you're animating, you'll also want to know about the 12 Principles of Animation.

Learn as much as you can about game design, in general, as an abstract concept. Many of the fundamentals can be applied to pretty much any genre of game. (Design Pillars, Mechanics/Aesthetics/Dynamics, pipelines and workflows, discovery, marketing, the list goes on and on.)

When you're ready to release the first build of your game, double-check the terms of service for whatever distribution platform(s) you're using. Even if you're not trying to make money, losing your account wastes your time. You should have a pretty good idea where your niche has a home online and what you can and can't get away with, based on what other developers have released in the past, but it doesn't hurt to read the fine print. Especially since the fine print suddenly changes, sometimes.

Tune out the haters, as others have already said. Genre-dissing is a stand-in for culture wars, which makes it a stand-in for politics. You don't want to get any of that shit on you.

But if you find someone who frequently posts good constructive criticism, interact with them as much as you can. Invite them to beta-test your game. End-users who know what they're talking about are a rare and precious commodity. Nurture them.

That said, always take what your players say with a grain of salt. They know what they didn't like. Their guess as to why they didn't like it or how to fix it is probably wrong, albiet well-intentioned. So, thank them for their interest, promise nothing, then log off and think critically about each point they made. Do research. Experiment. Test. Form your own solutions and see if they work.

Iterate. Make changes, test them in-house, then release the patch and see if it worked.

Polish last. Then get more feedback on whether it worked or not.

Finish. Tell the shit out of the story you set out to tell, back in your design draft. Tie off all the loose ends, drop a few callbacks to memorable moments and important player decisions, bring everything to an emotionally satisfying conclusion, and call it a day. (Gravity Falls is the single best example I have ever seen on How to End a Thing. LOST is the worst.)

Start planning your next game.

Good luck.

 

[fyl3toys]

Gravity Falls is the single best example I have ever seen on How to End a Thing.

Hmmm....I would have said the BSG remake. Everything came together so perfectly. Agree about LOST though. Garbage toward the end.

 

[CurvyLinesEverywhere]

I'm in the process of finishing up a screenplay for my 1st VN. So I'm not sure how relevant it will be, but I figured the most important part for me was actually going through and playing a number of games in my niche, and then asking myself what I thought worked and didn't work about those games.
I've written a number of short stories over the years, but since a VN is 50% V I decided to research screenplay guidelines and tips, and it's really helped me flesh out my story.
I'm also in the process of teaching myself DAZ, but I have a long ways to go so I imagine I'm going to put up a request here for a partner to work with me at some point.
But really.....
A good story and dialogue can turn out to be so very important.

Can you link to some of the resources you used? I just now caught myself thinking that VNs don't need as many stage directions as, say, a script for a TV show, but then I realized that's only true of 2D art-style VNs where art assets get extensively reused. In 3D pre-rendered VNs, it's become more common and even expected for the developer to re-pose the characters and move the camera after literally every line. That's totally like a TV script with stage directions!

 

[fyl3toys]

This is where I started:

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Then I realized no way am I going to be consistent with a format that's not familiar to me so I started looking for software, and that was a circle jerk.
I ended up going with the software I use for short stories and novels:

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Then I started looking for screenwriting tips and tricks from famous directors and ended up on YouTube...



This one below is an extremely interesting look at dialogue...

Should be enough here to get you started I would think. Good luck.

 

[fyl3toys]

Oh, and I won't be bothering to come up with a shot list until after I'm done with the script. I'm still learning DAZ so something like that can wait until I'm finished.

 

[CurvyLinesEverywhere]

Then I realized no way am I going to be consistent with a format that's not familiar to me so I started looking for software, and that was a circle jerk.

Thanks for the links.

I did a post on software recently. Honestly, I don't see why you wouldn't draft directly in Ren'Py. It even supports the Character Name: "Dialogue" paradigm right out of the box, albeit with slightly different formatting.

 

[fyl3toys]

NP.

Two reasons actually. I'm learning DAZ, and my old brain just can't bring itself to learn Ren'Py at the same time. I'm saving that for later.

And the most important reason is because I plan on working with others. Which means sharing the screenplay and all my background info. Scrivener is extremely easy to export into multiple formats including Final Draft.

 

[fyl3toys]

One other thing...

You know how I said to play multiple games from the niche you want to work on? I'd also say pick out a favorite and dissect it into little pieces. The script that is. Try to analyze it critically. What about this particular game was impactful and why? Did the pacing help or hinder? Were the characters well developed and relatable? How did that happen? What's something that could have taken it up a notch?

In my case the only niche I'm interested in working on is incest. I picked Light Of My Life as something I wanted to learn from. It's not even my favorite, but it's the only incest game here I consider to have a passing grade as far as the screenplay goes. I have spent a lot of time thinking about that game, and with all the notes I've taken on it I can honestly say it helped me refine my ideas and really pinpoint what I want to stand out in my script.

 

[MissFortune]

and my old brain just can't bring itself to learn Ren'Py at the same time

If you aren't making a sandbox, then Ren'py in and of itself is not hard to learn. There's lot of "scene xxx_image1 with dissolve (or transition of your choice)" and variable tracking, but that's all that really needs to be learned. Aside from imagebuttons or GUI customization, at least.

 

[CurvyLinesEverywhere]

It's not even my favorite, but it's the only one here I consider to have a passing grade as far as the screenplay goes.

Huh. That's interesting. What pushed that particular game over the top to "passing grade," for you? What's missing from the rest of them, that made them get a failing grade? And were there any games that had a decent screenplay, but were outside your niche?

 

[CurvyLinesEverywhere]

If you aren't making a sandbox, then Ren'py in and of itself is not hard to learn. There's lot of "scene xxx_image1 with dissolve (or transition of your choice)" and variable tracking, but that's all that really needs to be learned. Aside from imagebuttons or GUI customization, at least.

This. For a sandbox, you'd have a better time with something a little more branch-oriented and programmable, like Twine.

 

[fyl3toys]

If you aren't making a sandbox, then Ren'py in and of itself is not hard to learn.

I've been hoping that's case. I'll get there eventually

Huh. That's interesting. What pushed that particular game over the top to "passing grade," for you? What's missing from the rest of them, that made them get a failing grade? And were there any games that had a decent screenplay, but were outside your niche?

Correct use of story beats. Fetish development. Non sexual character growth. Emotional plot points.

Those stood out the most, and became an essential notecard for me while working on my script.

There are other incest games here that I like very much for one reason or another, but every single one of them barely scratch the surface of what I would consider acceptable writing. It's like comparing a high school thesis to a graduate thesis. I'm not saying this to be cruel or mean. They made a game because they had a vision and they did their best with what they had. They may not even speak English. And a number of them are really enjoyable. I still say bravo to them.
It's just that I read a lot of books. And I've always had a problem reading poorly written books.

The #1 problem with most incest scripts happens to be poorly written and stilted dialogue.

I only play incest games.

 

[CurvyLinesEverywhere]

Correct use of story beats. Fetish development. Non sexual character growth. Emotional plot points.

Lets unpack these a little bit. I want to make sure I understand you.

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  AKA emotional beats. A deliberate emotional change within a scene. Usually triggered when a character (or the audience) gains new information that re-contextualizes what came before. In a VN, this can be signposted to the audience by a change in music mid-scene, or the music suddenly stopping.
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  Even on hookup apps or in speed dating, IRL, it's rare for someone to tell you all of their kinks soon after meeting you. It's much more common that people keep these things private until they're sure they want you to know about them. Sometimes a character may not even realize they're into a particular kink until something the MC did makes them curious about it. This also makes for satisfying gameplay and storytelling, as the player works to gradually discover more and more of a character's turn-ons. All too often, writers front-load a character's kinkiest scenes, leaving their route nowhere to go to "up the ante." Like danger, violence, emotional stakes, and
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  in general,
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  is usually more fun.
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  It's one of the simplest formulas in storytelling, the ol'
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  . To paraphrase: A character has a status quo, until an unexpected need comes along to shake it up. They struggle to overcome or avoid it, but they cannot. In desperation, they try something weird, something crazy. Something that leverages their relationship to the unexpected thing in a new way. They discover some Maguffin-- a new ability, a new piece of information, a new way of being, anything that changes how they operate-- that either defeats the unexpected thing, or else makes it no longer a problem. In one way or another, they pay a heavy price for this. They then return to their familar situation, but having been changed by the ordeal. The price they paid, the game-changer they unlocked, their new relationship to the other characters and the problem they overcame-- all of these things are permenent. Or at least stable, until something else comes along to shake up the status quo. This is called character growth, character progression, or character development-- the character at the end of the story is different from who they were at the start of the story. The change is called an "arc." Resist the urge to "reset" the character after an adventure. A character who has been through many arcs and routinely displays what they've learned from them, is said to be "multi-dimensional" or "multi-faceted."
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  This one is a little abstract, and a little complex, so bear with me:
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  are events that happen in a story that drive the action. They're the game-changers. The bits where a character does something really clever or really cool that changes everything. Or when a door closes-- the character loses something that prevents them from going back to the status quo, so now they have no choice but to forge a new path ahead into the unknown. Well, while the character is going through all of this, their emotions are also being changed. When the main action of a story is not external, but internal-- when the bulk of the story is about a character VS their own mind or heart or emotions-- then you have emotional plot points. Moments when a character's experiences or new knowlege cause that character's feelings to change, in a way that will alter their course throughout the rest of the story. Any time a character changes their mind, and that changes everything, it's an Emotional Plot Point.

Another way of looking at it is that Emotional Beats affect the audience; Emotional Plot Points affect the characters.

How'd I do?