Others I want to make my own VN. What elements of game development should I use that would make a great VN?

[fyl3toys]

You gonna do fine

 

[MissFortune]

Correct use of story beats. Fetish development. Non sexual character growth. Emotional plot points.

I don't really agree. If anything, that's where LoML struggles. Any development within the storyline (I have not played the newest version, mostly due in part to the dev being an elitist douche, so my information may be a bit off.) is dragged out to a nearly unbearable pace. He clearly has no understanding of pacing. He does a nice job of building sexual tension, but then keeps it going. And going. And going. I think its biggest problem, though, is that it loses itself by trying so hard to be realistic (in regard to romantic progression) that it tends to fall into this verbose (and awkward) dialogue while leaning into the dead parent incest cliche to manufacture drama/emotion. It's a very good VN that does a lot of things well, but very overrated at the same time.

There are many better written incest-based VNs out there.

 

[fyl3toys]

Shoot. I'm curious MissFortune.....can you tell me a name of one or 2 that are better?

And I do agree with a number of your points. The game definitely has flaws. It was very easy to pick them apart. However it had enough good points going for it that the story stands out to me as one of the better ones here.
Granted the list of incest games here runs long, but I've played a good number of them and have been let down by 95% of them.

 

[MissFortune]

Just to be clear here, I'm not saying don't use it, just be careful what you use/take away from it.

I mean, obviously at the end of the day, it all comes down to subjectivity. And something like this is completely up to tastes beyond everything else. I probably overstated 'many better written' along with saying it much too matter-of-factly as far as that goes. There's a ton of bad or decent, or even good, but not a ton of great. But I suppose it depends on what you're looking for, all said and done. I'll say the best all-around VN I've experienced, from writing to visuals, is City of Broken Dreamers. Not incest, but man is it good.

From a more realistic perspective, Summer's Gone is shaping up to be a very good one. Haley's Story had a nice dynamic between the brother and sister, the banter sounding very much like siblings - though the 'conflict' may turn some off. (Sister was raped (or gave very questionable consent) by teacher). A Petal Among Thorns is a short one, but I'd say well written in my opinion.

From a less realistic view, Young Again seems to be shaping up really well, though the lack of realism sort of fades after the beginning (goddesses and such). I'm also enjoying Now & Then a fair bit so far. Not incest (adopted daughter), but sort of feels like it was originally intended that way. It moves fairly quickly into the sex, but they do flashback and sort of reveal the years of the LI being attracted to the protagonist. Rendered in HS, so graphics aren't great, but the story makes up for it.

 

[fyl3toys]

I forgot about Petal Among Thorns. Probably because of the length, but you are right....that one stands out.

The others ones...
I could try Summer's Gone. I did download it a while ago, but something about it made pass it up. I'll give it a shot.
And Young Again the same thing...although I'm sure I passed that one due to the supernatural stuff.

I wish I could find the interest to play City of Broken Dreamers. That no incest crap. It sucks.

 

[CurvyLinesEverywhere]

City of Broken Dreamers
Summer's Gone
Haley's Story
A Petal Among Thorns
Young Again
Now & Then

What lessons about good writing and pacing would you say we can learn from these games?

ADV-style VNs are a somewhat unique medium, in that they enforce a very specific type of pacing: one line at a time. If you combine this structural requirement with

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such as "don't waste the audience's time" or "every sentence should reveal character or advance the plot," I don't see how an author could go wrong.

Are we talking about wasted lines? Too many lines between meaningful story beats? Lines that repeat a point that's already been beaten into the ground? Lines that don't involve character or plot but just wallow in smut for the sake of smut? Or, on the other end of the sliding scale of prudishness VS lewdity, too many lines spent waiting around for the action to start?

Style, tone, intent, and personal taste all make a difference, of course. But the granularity of ADV-style visual novels lets us really consider what a hypothetical "optimal pace" might actually look like, in terms of line count and line content.

Of course, I'm assuming all those games are ADV-style. If they're NVL-style, it makes more sense to break down the pacing as one would a book. (I.E. "page-turner" = good.)

 

[anne O'nymous]

Haley's Story had a nice dynamic between the brother and sister, the banter sounding very much like siblings [...]

But also have a totally rushed ending.
You talked about the pacing problem of Light of My Life, here it's more or less the opposite problem. The story had a slow pace, but it was constant and relatively believable. The MC needed time to accept his sister love, then needed to find where he place himself since he's supposed to be in love with someone else. But at some point it's relatively clear that the author reached the end of his ideas. And in two/three updates, everything was finished.

And this tend to be a recurring problem. At some point the authors don't know what to add, and jump to a conclusion that no one was expecting so soon. It's why the "plan your story in advance" that was among the firsts advice, is one of the most important thing. This way you can introduce the conclusion when the time come.
Ideally, the pace should be slow at first (did she love me ? Do I love her back ? And obviously the taboo part for an incest story), faster in the middle (let's fuck like rabbits), then it return to a slow pace near the end (we now are a loving couple, we enjoy being together even when we don't fuck).

 

[CurvyLinesEverywhere]

And this tend to be a recurring problem. At some point the authors don't know what to add, and jump to a conclusion that no one was expecting so soon. It's why the "plan your story in advance" that was among the firsts advice, is one of the most important thing. This way you can introduce the conclusion when the time come.

This is a fundamental problem with "will they/won't they" as a source of appeal. It works for a movie or a single book, or as a romantic subplot in a story that has nothing to do with romance. but in longer narratives focused on romance, love or sex, there's a shelf life for how long two people who want to hook up can believably not hook up.

After the hookup, the formula has to change. Either to a narrative centered around the later stages of the new relationship, or else something has to happen that prevents the relationship from becoming the new status quo.

Ironically, the television Soap Opera industry traditionally solved this problem by revealing that the characters can't be together for some reason, usually by them being blood relatives. Then they can redact this in later seasons, or have the characters get amnesia, or use all sorts of other plot devices to tweak and adjust the permissibility of various relationships, ratcheting up the sexual tension in an endless cycle of audience baiting and forbidden love.

Of course, that entire dynamic goes out the window in the specific genre of incest porn. I'm not really sure what can be done about that. Maybe someday, some author will pull a Reverse Uno Card, having the characters immediately lose interest in each other when they discover that they're really not related after all, only to fall for someone else after it's revealed that they were their real blood relative all along? That would actually be pretty funny. And the more times it happens, the funnier the joke gets. I can't think of a way to play it straight, though.

Another option would be to kill off love interests to make room in the story for new ones. Then you can start fresh with the whole attraction phase of the relationship. This is a tactic frequently employed by writers of superhero comics, in which anything as messy and complicated as a real-life breakup is simply too much baggage for a character who's meant to symbolize the paragon of human potential, and so they just take the moral high ground and fridge everybody instead.

That also doesn't work here. Mainly because there are only so many long lost family members the MC can discover they've always had. Also, killing off beloved characters as soon as their narrative purpose has been fulfilled in order to keep the story going gets pretty morbid and stressful after a while, as anyone who's ever simped over a Game of Thrones character will tell you.

Which just leaves the option every developer usually ends up taking:

Quickly wrap up the story and start a new one about some other, unrelated schmuck who has the hots for a family member.

Why not do it the hard way? By actually writing out all the juicy details of a long-term relationship as anne O'nymous suggested?

Maybe because it's hard. Maybe because the details of a long-term relationship aren't as juicy. Or maybe because the people who write these things have seen plenty of examples of forbidden love and whirlwind hookups in fiction, and relatively few examples of stable, entertaining long-term relationships.

But, hey. All these games are moddable, right? If you think you know what a long-term relationship between these characters should look like, why don't you write it. Reuse the existing art assets if you have to, or collaborate with a 3D artist who's made fanart of the characters. Be the change you wish to see in the world. Maybe you'll teach your favorite authors a thing or two about how to write for the long term, and kick off a trend of long, finished VNs with satisfying late games.

Or, maybe you'll discover that it's a lot harder than you thought it was.

 

[anne O'nymous]

This is a fundamental problem with "will they/won't they" as a source of appeal. It works for a movie or a single book, or as a romantic subplot in a story that has nothing to do with romance. but in longer narratives focused on romance, love or sex, there's a shelf life for how long two people who want to hook up can believably not hook up.

Not only narratives focused on romance/love/sex. How many series have this duet of characters in love but not in love but in fact yes they are in love but well they'll never tell the other that they love him/her ? And most of them quickly become boring just because of that. By fear to kill the interest if those characters finally end together, the writers slowly kill the series itself.

That's why I talked about the pace that become faster in the middle of the story. There's a progressive curve here, because the more you accept your love for the other, the faster you want to reach the next step. This until the moment where you finally give in, and have sex any time it's possible, like it happen at the start of any relationship.
And this apply even more for incest stories. The curve is more marked, because you don't just need to accept that you are in love with the other, you've also to deal with the taboo part. But during this time your love grow further and stronger ; you don't consider giving up to incest until you're sure that it's really what you want, and therefore that you really love the other. What mean that when something will finally happen, it will not just be a blow-job like it happen too often in those stories. With incest more than with any other relationship, it's all or nothing.

After the hookup, the formula has to change. Either to a narrative centered around the later stages of the new relationship, or else something has to happen that prevents the relationship from becoming the new status quo.

It's not necessarily a status quo, all depend of the context.
A long time divorced woman will want to catch up on lost time. Same for an incestuous relationship ; all this time lost because of a social convention that finally you decided to not follow. A young girl have everything to discover regarding sex, and there's still a lot that a less young one still don't know ; what is probably the reason why corruption games have such success, they can still progress once the characters start having sex.

Which just leaves the option every developer usually ends up taking:

Quickly wrap up the story and start a new one about some other, unrelated schmuck who has the hots for a family member.

Why not do it the hard way? By actually writing out all the juicy details of a long-term relationship as anne O'nymous suggested?

I think that it's mostly because the authors discover that an incest story stop to be an incest story the moment the characters start to have sex together. Of course, they are still related, but to their eyes, they are lovers before being, by example, mother and son. The taboo is just something that spice up their relationship.
MissFortune named Now & Then, I think it's a really good example. The relationship was incestuous only during the few firsts updates, because it was the adoptive daughter. But quickly it became a standard relationship, two persons in love who happen to be related. Time to time there's a revival when a new character enter the scene, but it's only to the eyes of this new character that the relationship is incestuous, at no time the MC and his daughter see it that way, and even less act like this.

It's possible to make this last longer, by putting others characters living on the house. They then act as constant reminders that "this is not right". But there's a limit to how long it can be used.
One can also play the conscience crisis card. They are kissing in a public park, and the mother suddenly believe that a co-worker saw them ; "Oh my god, what am I doing ? He's my son, I shouldn't have had sex with him". But this card can only played once, and either it last one/two days, or it lead to a definitive break-up. You don't accept to have incestuous sex just because. You thought about this for a long time and when you're doing it, it's because you really want it.

Or maybe because the people who write these things have seen plenty of examples of forbidden love and whirlwind hookups in fiction, and relatively few examples of stable, entertaining long-term relationships.

I guess that most people believe that stable long-term incestuous relationship don't exist. I know they exist, because I knew person living one, but honestly even with this knowledge I would probably not be able to write it. What it really mean to be in love and related ? Is it more frustrating or more exciting ?
I mean, imagine a family diner. If you're there with your girlfriend or wife, you can take her hand, you can kiss her and all those small sign of affection. But all this is prohibited if your girlfriend is also your sister. So, do you pass the whole day frustrated to be so near, but also so far, to the one you love ? Or at the opposite, is it more exciting when you're finally alone together, and once again you've the night of your life ?

One of the incestuous couple I knew was in a kind of "friends with benefit" relationship. They were together unless one of them was in a relationship, and their own relationship would last until one of them find the love of his/her life, if it happen. Lost contact with them a long time ago, the fate to be 50yo, but last time I saw them, they were still happy with this.
Perhaps is it the solution for a good incest story that can last on (in game) time: not putting the incest at the center of the story.
But it would be then more on the side of a "slice of life", with months passing between two periods where they are together. Unless the MC can corrupt his girlfriend, making her accept that any family diners end with a threesome in the mother's bed. They would have their own relationship and life, and time to time incestuous sex would come to spice up things.
The conclusion being introduced when the said girlfriend say something like, "you know, I think that I'm starting to fall in love with your mother. I still love you, but I think that I also love her". They would then start talking ; is it really love, is it serious, do they all feel the same, and all. And after some times, they invent a pretext for the rest of the family, and buy a house where the three of them will live, having sex anytime they want, and not just after family diners.

Or, maybe you'll discover that it's a lot harder than you thought it was.

It's definitively harder, reason why one should plan his story first. He would then discover than most of them don't works because there's no way to end them well. But when he'll finally found the right one, he'll know exactly where he's going.

 

[CurvyLinesEverywhere]

One of the incestuous couple I knew was in a kind of "friends with benefit" relationship. They were together unless one of them was in a relationship, and their own relationship would last until one of them find the love of his/her life, if it happen. Lost contact with them a long time ago, the fate to be 50yo, but last time I saw them, they were still happy with this.

Wait, are you talking about real people? I was talking about fictional video games. In fact, I was trying to extract general-purpose game design lessons from the conversation so OP could get something useful out of it no matter what niche their first game occupies.

It's possible you're looking for Blood Upon The Snow, but these developers are all making Rambo.

Maybe think about offering your services as a consultant over in Recruitment Services.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Wait, are you talking about real people? I was talking about fictional video games.

I'm talking about fictional stories, but the best way to write them right is to refer to what you know from real life. Of course, it's not always possible, but when it is, it really help.

Maybe think about offering your services as a consultant over in Recruitment Services.

Oh my god... No, I've already enough works like that between my mods, codding help, own game project, and I more or less remember that I also have a real job

 

[CurvyLinesEverywhere]

I've thought it over? And I'm starting to think maybe the idea of a single game that keeps adding routes and content indefinitely is a fundamentally flawed concept.

In fact... this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but just hear me out... maybe devs should be leaning into the whole "MC bait" paradigm used by the romance novel industry?

Think about it. Every few months, new game. New MC. New heroine(s) to interact with. Same world? Maybe even the same town! The current game introduces the next game's MC as a supporting character.

Players get to meet, fall for, and try to hook up with a new character every new game. Each time reads like the MC's first time. No pacing issues, no scoping issues, no devs writing themselves into a corner and withdrawing into writer's block until it looks like they took the money and ran. Just a steady drip-feed of new routes from a dev whose niche and writing style you're already comfortable with.

Competent writing. Reasonable scope. Consistent output. We could do this today, with the devs we already have. The only difference would be, developers would advertise this as being the intended business model. That way, instead of "Oh shit, the game's dead," we'd be saying "Oh cool! The game's done! Can't wait to see what they do with the next one!"

All we would have to do to make it a reality, is tell them to think smaller when we hand them our money.