If NTR Is Optional, Why the Hate?

[MarshmallowCasserole]

It's because NTR is now used as a broad term of all different types of getting stolen, stealing, cucking, sharing etc. and not just Netorare

Always has been.

 

[Lupiscanis]

Always has been.

It was on this site, up until the NTR tag was removed and replaced with Netorare. Outside definitions don't really matter with regards to tagging (which is what they were talking about, I believe).

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

It was on this site, up until the NTR tag was removed and replaced with Netorare. Outside definitions don't really matter with regards to tagging (which is what they were talking about, I believe).

It was used as an unbrella term outside f95zone, and before f95zone.

(Why did admins rename NTR tag to netorare, making it less accurate I don't know, nor do I really care)

 

[Lupiscanis]

It was used as an unbrella term outside f95zone, and before f95zone.

(Why did admins rename NTR tag to netorare, making it less accurate I don't know, nor do I really care)

Because outside definitions of the tag don't matter (other than to inform the definitions of the site tags) and an NTR umbrella tag wouldn't be helpful in any way (other than as an exclusion tag if you wanted no netori, netorare or netorase in your game at all).

The NTR tag was renamed to netorare to be more precise and accurate (I don't know why you think it's less so), because the site rework will bring in netori and netorase tags as well, they just haven't been added yet (and won't, until the rework happens).

Currently, the closest we have to netori is cheating and the closest we have to netorase is swinging, although neither are particularly accurate (especially swinging since it's defined as being about couples).

*edit* - clarification

 

[woody554]

it's like someone saying "The literal second you walk in this room you're going to get punched in the balls", then you walk in the room anyway, get punched in the balls

we'd all watch that show though. very entertaining.

also I've said it before, but ntr-hate wars in comments (at least on f95) greatly increase the game's visibility and through that makes the game much more popular. so I wouldn't take it as a negative for an ntr-dev. controversy sells.

 

[Count Morado]

It's because NTR is now used as a broad term of all different types of getting stolen, stealing, cucking, sharing etc. and not just Netorare

Always has been.

It was on this site, up until the NTR tag was removed and replaced with Netorare

"NTR" had no published definition for F95Zone until after 16 Mar 2018 - and each person (including the staff, mods, uploaders) had their own opinion on the matter prior to that. It didn't alleviate the problems with conversations in threads, tagging threads, etc.

So, when they published the list of tags, along with their definitions - they included the site's definition of "NTR" - and it has been this way since 2018:


And it is that same definition today:


So, for as long as "NTR" has been defined for the site - it has always been netorare - whether it was "NTR" or "netorare".

That may change when the updated tag list is implemented. It appears it will change... but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Lupiscanis]

So, for as long as "NTR" has been defined for the site - it has always been netorare - whether it was "NTR" or "netorare".

My mistake. I thought the old NTR tag was supposed to reference all three (netorare/netori/netorase). I stand corrected.

That may change when the updated tag list is implemented. It appears it will change... but we'll have to wait and see.

The tags are clearly defined in the planned tags list, is there a reason they might change?

 

[Count Morado]

The tags are clearly defined in the planned tags list, is there a reason they might change?

I think you might have misunderstood what I meant by change. In context - I meant that "It appears [the current netorare definition] will change... but we'll have to wait and see." Because the element of jealousy is removed from the proposed definition.

As for waiting to see --- nowhere did they say the list and the definitions were "final." If they were final, the thread would be closed for discussion, wouldn't it? I mean, what would be the point of having the discussions unless there was a possibility of change (well, it could simply be a containment thread).

What they did state was:


Now, the definitions haven't changed on that spreadsheet since at least 18 December 2023 (except for appending assets tags at the bottom). That could mean either the definitions are set "in stone" or they aren't updating that specific file.

We won't know until it is implemented.

 

[adrynalyne]

haters gonna hate. simple is that.

 

[DawnCry]

Personally I believe most games that have both harem and NTR could easily just focus on one side or the other, since it doesn't add anything to the gameplay.

Avoidable NTR works good when you have the following characteristics:

-Light theme of the game and no drama
-Chill characters
-Antagonists that aren't pure evil.

Overall we have the general NTR trend which tends to be focused on jealously, drama and pain for the MC while in games that focus on avoidable NTR it shouldn't be the end of the world.

Just to talk about games that have "NTRish situations" we have:

-Odyssey of Gianna: Game about people trying to transform and doing whatever to you and your companions.

-Descendants of the forest: Again another game in which mobs can try to transform your companions but also can rape them.

In both cases the "NTRish situation" adds something to the game, because it lets you see companions being captured/transformed/raped and the tone of the game is so chill that you don't care. Would the game still be fun without that setting? the combat would become more boring that's for sure.


Then we have a different case in which it isn't truly NTR but more about "pairing up characters". Basically add sex scenes into any fire emblem game, it isn't NTR by nature, it's just that characters can end in a relationship with each other.


But overall, if you are adding NTR and harem together they need to be linked in some way, be it because your setting is about protecting your love interests, that there are rivals for the MC or any other case, if not then you don't need to add them together. Because a harem fan won't play the NTR part and viceversa, so the effort you put towards one side of the coin, the other side will see no work done, only when it matters at a gameplay level and it's done in a chill way can they be trully combined.

However in most cases it is not what is happening, when it becomes an option it's just that and what you are trully getting is 2 very different types of public for your game, which will incentivize fights a lot.

 

[Lupiscanis]

I think you might have misunderstood what I meant by change.

Fair. I guess I just assumed because the list had been reviewed before it was posted that anything on there was unlikely to change but obviously, as you say, we won't know until the site update goes live.

 

[Deneth10]

Most people (me included) tend to often get too attached to the MC. It's way harder (or easier not to) if the MC is highly unlikable, but still. Having NTR even as an option is like saying "This person can cheat on you!" Not many people likes to be cheated on. That's why NTR is highly controversial. Many players hate it when their beloved character gets into the bed of some random person. Sure, you can avoid it, but it's there, and it's even worse if player needs to actually try if they want to avoid it. It doesn't matter for them if NTR can be avoided, what matters is that they have a thought in their head that the character MC is with CAN be unfaithful if given right conditions. NTS is a little different story, since MC is bringing it onto himself purely from their actions. I can't get attached nor feel bad for them.

Now, I'd like to thank you for even giving an option. Most devs don't care, and it's sad when the game I find interest in suddenly has NTR I can't avoid. I just prefer to have a choice to avoid it if possible.

i mean there are few way what can describe as NTR one being the mc is the one getting cheated(being ntr) on and the other thing is mc is the one who make them cheat on with( doing the ntr) so maybe this will helps.





netori "ntr', where the main character is 'stealing' another person's love interest.

netorase "ntr', which is basically main character is the one getting dump on (sharing partners or loosing his partner).

 

[Lust And Roll]

I wanted to share this with you as well.



There are actually a few things I want to express here.

Yes, I will continue moving forward without paying attention to the haters. Even though my rating is being lowered simply because the game includes optional NTR, and even though this may create a negative first impression for people who haven’t played the game yet, it won’t stop me from continuing what I’m doing.

What is disappointing for me is this. Judging and evaluating my entire game through such a narrow perspective just because it contains optional NTR. I don’t find this approach fair.

The point where I truly can’t agree is the mindset of “If I don’t like it, it shouldn’t exist.”
Not liking a type of content is one thing; wanting it to disappear entirely just because you dislike it is something else.

This is actually the first time I’ve experienced something like this in the game development world. Because of that, I’m aware that I’ve spent more time and energy on this issue than I normally would. Most likely, the 1-star ratings on my

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will continue to increase and reach a point where they aim to exhaust me psychologically. And yes, just like many of you suggested, at some point I’ll become indifferent to all of this and stop caring.

Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not criticizing people who dislike NTR. What I’m trying to understand are those who dislike NTR yet still play NTR games, or those who want to erase something simply because it includes content they personally dislike.

So yes, in the end, I’m continuing on my path.
And experiencing this process has been quite interesting and educational for me.

 

[seifukulover]

It's because NTR is one of those things you can't just have a little bit in the game. Any amount of NTR in the game makes it an "NTR game".

Imagine I'm preparing a delicious ice cream sundae for you, but just before I give it to you I spit right on it. What's the problem? Just eat around the spit if you don't like it. It's not like I spit on the whole thing...

 

[Lust And Roll]

It's because NTR is one of those things you can't just have a little bit in the game. Any amount of NTR in the game makes it an "NTR game".

Imagine I'm preparing a delicious ice cream sundae for you, but just before I give it to you I spit right on it. What's the problem? Just eat around the spit if you don't like it. It's not like I spit on the whole thing...

If I follow your analogy, my response would be this:

In my own place, I prepare an ice cream sundae and yes, I spit on it. Some of my customers enjoy this; they actually like it. And yes, people like that do exist.

Most importantly, we clearly tell every customer who orders the sundae, right from the start, that it is spat on. This is part of the recipe and the experience we are offering. Nothing is hidden and no one is being deceived.

So the real question is why someone who dislikes this would still choose to eat it. And even if they don’t, why they feel the need to demand that this place be shut down immediately and that this product should no longer be sold to others who knowingly enjoy it.

 

[desmosome]

If I follow your analogy, my response would be this:

In my own place, I prepare an ice cream sundae and yes, I spit on it. Some of my customers enjoy this; they actually like it. And yes, people like that do exist.

Most importantly, we clearly tell every customer who orders the sundae, right from the start, that it is spat on. This is part of the recipe and the experience we are offering. Nothing is hidden and no one is being deceived.

So the real question is why someone who dislikes this would still choose to eat it. And even if they don’t, why they feel the need to demand that this place be shut down immediately and that this product should no longer be sold to others who knowingly enjoy it.

Bro you already know the answer. Those people are fucking retards plain and simple. It's like leaving a 1* review on a roguelike because you need to start runs over when you die. They are just simple minded fools.

 

[Lust And Roll]

Bro you already know the answer. Those people are fucking retards plain and simple. It's like leaving a 1* review on a roguelike because you need to start runs over when you die. They are just simple minded fools.

Buddy, I can more or less guess the answer, and honestly, I’ve started to think this isn’t just about NTR.

It feels more like it comes from a broader mindset of “things I don’t like shouldn’t exist at all.”
Still, I’m genuinely trying to understand it and figure out whether that’s really the core issue.

From the roguelike example, it seems we think in a similar way, and being understood like that honestly makes me happy.

However, when we choose a harsher tone, we end up getting defenses instead of real answers, because that kind of language can come across as somewhat aggressive.
That’s why I want to add this as well: a harsher tone tends to turn a discussion into an argument, and that’s something I’d like to avoid.

 

[JoeTheMC84]

If I follow your analogy, my response would be this:

In my own place, I prepare an ice cream sundae and yes, I spit on it. Some of my customers enjoy this; they actually like it. And yes, people like that do exist.

Most importantly, we clearly tell every customer who orders the sundae, right from the start, that it is spat on. This is part of the recipe and the experience we are offering. Nothing is hidden and no one is being deceived.

So the real question is why someone who dislikes this would still choose to eat it. And even if they don’t, why they feel the need to demand that this place be shut down immediately and that this product should no longer be sold to others who knowingly enjoy it.

I hadn't planned on responding again, but this example you gave made me think a bit. And I'd like to try to expand your own example to perhaps give some more thoughts if that's okay.

Say you have a ice cream shop (the AVN) and in it there is lots of ice cream (sexual stuff) and one thing you offer among all the types of ice cream is a sundae with spit (NTR), but you also offer ice cream without spit (because you say the NTR is optional). That means that some people come in and say, "I'd like some ice cream without spit please." But when they get it and take a bite they taste spit in it, or it has spit residue on it when they look it over, or some spit got on the side of the cup and so they aren't sure if any might be inside the ice cream. Or maybe their ice cream was half the size of the spit sundae but no where did it say that the spit sundae was bigger. All of that could still cause problems and make people feel bad about their experience. They would feel like you just didn't care about them because they weren't the "main" customers getting the spit sundae, you basically just tossed them a bone, gave the bare minimum effort, or maybe even tricked them by "promising" a n option without spit but it came with spit anyway, or they feel like you "half-assed" it and gave them left overs.

Saying, "The NTR is optional," makes it seem like the NTR is secondary, like it is an added topping that can be removed without losing all that much but one topping. So the bulk of the experience remains. This would be different than saying, "This is an NTR game but we have some bits of vanilla content that can be seen while avoiding the primary NTR content." So when someone takes that at face value, "NTR is avoidable/optional," and thus the minor, or at most equal, to vanilla content but then either gets hit with unavoidable NTR, NTR bleed over, or NTR as the major content and they get a few scraps, they may feel like they got duped. Interestingly, this is often why sometimes even NTR fans get upset at games that are labeled as having NTR (even optional) but then don't have what they consider NTR or it is only one or two small scenes of NTR out of the whole project. They get the "spit sundae," but there was so little spit that it feels like it wasn't even worth the effort and time of eating it. Or worse (in their minds) it wasn't even real spit but imitation spit, like expecting a juice cheese burger but getting some veggie burger with fake cheese instead.

This is part of why even some NTR fans (and the majority of vanilla fans) will often say it's better to just pick a lane because you probably won't end up pleasing either group and will leave both feeling like they got the short end of the stick.

This is also a funny analogy (if taken more literally) because even if people consent for themselves to eating food with spit in it, there are often regulation that would still get such a shop shut down. And some people might see it as the shop owner trying to spread illness or taking advantage of people who are mentally ill and willing to "eat spit," from a stranger. While this is obviously taking the analogy too far, it is funny to consider that even the existence of a "spit sundae," would be problematic for a shop and could get the shop shut down even if the shop owner was upfront about it and all the customers agreed to partake.

Anyway, just wanted to dip back in and give a few new thoughts, peace all,

 

[Lupiscanis]

- cut for brevity -

To build on that and provide another analogy, I think it's more like a restaurant where x% of dishes are vegan (vanilla) and the rest meat-based (NTR).

Some people will be put off if they even know about other people eating meat in the same room as them. Some people will be put off if they have to see someone eating meat. Some people won't mind as much but want more vegan options.

Generally, only the last of those will be true for meat eaters (wanting more options) but some will also not like seeing vegan options on the menu when they've come to eat steak.

If your restaurant is 50% steak and 50% vegan, you're going to get less vegans because of the meat and less steak eaters because of the limited meat options.

Please note - this is not intended to be a commentary on the social mores of veganism vs meat-eating or anything inbetween.

 

[balitz Method]

The big reason that people feel any NTR poisons the well is the Big Reasoning: in most every NTR scenario, the causes behind it boil down to "another boy has a bigger PP than my character does". That divides your audience cleanly. Those who want to be humiliated as part of the kink are on the exact opposite end from those who want the game to stroke their ego ("of course your PP is big enough so that 8 different girls want you even though you don't talk").

It'd be a whole different thing if the game was designed so that cheating could happen not because a designated NTR rival with a threatening aura appeared but as a result of neglecting or otherwise treating the character poorly. You'd still have players who're annoyed that they have to keep the big harem they wanted happy, but tying it to the player's performance makes a difference. I get the feeling that NTR rivals that you can beat and humiliate would be better received, too. Most of what the vocal anti-NTR people hate is that their 'loss' is usually a given in these scenarios.

I kinda wish NTR scenarios would be more diverse in general. I'm totally neutral on it normally, but I think it'd be hot if both people in the relationship independently fell for the same person and eventually their cheating intersects into a pina colada moment.