If NTR Is Optional, Why the Hate?

[MarshmallowCasserole]

In my own place, I prepare an ice cream sundae and yes, I spit on it. Some of my customers enjoy this; they actually like it. And yes, people like that do exist.

Most importantly, we clearly tell every customer who orders the sundae, right from the start, that it is spat on. This is part of the recipe and the experience we are offering. Nothing is hidden and no one is being deceived.

So the real question is why someone who dislikes this would still choose to eat it. And even if they don’t, why they feel the need to demand that this place be shut down immediately and that this product should no longer be sold to others who knowingly enjoy it.

There's a play on Godwin's law that a sufficiently long discussion of a porn game leads to a food-based analogy. Anyway, I like this one.

First, let's talk why some people would never eat at your establishment. This is beause they deem the risks associated with an order mix up unacceptable. Let's be real, your sundaes aren't magical, I can have similar or better ones elsewhere, so why would I risk getting spit in mine? Food with spit and without looks the same, so it's easy to order regular food, only to end up eating spit. And realistically, you will not compensate your customers for that. Simple refund is not enough: a person won't eat food with spit even if it was free, so you'd have to pay them, and a lot. Which we know you won't do (this is where the analogy breaks a little, a restaraunt maybe can reimburse customers for a mistake, but a video game dev? Not a chance)

So that is the reason your restaurant instantly loses a part of your audience. Now your customers are either indifferent or enthusiastic about spit. Now there's less reason to pour effort in base food, and more reason to enhance, ahem, the experience. (It doesn't always happen, sometimes a game just dips its toes in a fetish and leaves it at that, but you have to see the incentive to go all in.)

So you hire Spit Bae. You adorn your place with images of people spitting. That indifferent part of your audience? A large part of it is gone because it's one thing knowing your food may by mistake have a certain ingredient, a small chance, and another thing to see your staff spit all over the neighbouring table as a premium experience.

Back to the NTR discussion, this would be me. Echoing what balitz Method said, I'd be more ok with NTR games, if the basics weren't usually such garbage without an ounce of originality. But in order to enchance the fetish, they drive all the prerequisites to eleven at the cost of quality. It's not a coincidence, it's intentional. The pina colada moment ruins the kick for hardcore fans, so no pina colada moments for the rest of us. The cuck must be utterly clueless and pathetic, the bull must be either a machismo icon or an ugly bastard, and my problem is that neither of those is a character, they are cardboard cutouts. I can't enjoy... this, whereas an NTR fan self-inserts with enviable ease and screams in delight at their vicarious suffering.

And now we're at the rating part. Well... It is unfair. Just as any 5 star rating with the word "potential" in it is also unfair, just as any fetish-brain giving 5 stars just because it has the fetish is unfair.

What does a rating actually stand for, what do you think?

 

[Icarus Media]

 

[eaudecologne]

On our game page, we clearly state:
-Which fetishes are present in the game
-That NTR exists
-And most importantly, that NTR can be avoided

I feel like a lot of people think in simplistic terms like "if devs didn't make ntr then they would make more stuff that I like!" Also like u mentioned with the vegan restaurant, many people have a us vs them mentality and veganism is kinda out of fashion at this point so maybe this is what they're doing now?

 

[WispDev]

I feel like a lot of people think in simplistic terms like "if devs didn't make ntr then they would make more stuff that I like!" Also like u mentioned with the vegan restaurant, many people have a us vs them mentality and veganism is kinda out of fashion at this point so maybe this is what they're doing now?

Trying to keep an open mind, but it does seem like that's a common thread between anti-NTR comments. "This update has 4 scenes, 2 for the NTR patch and 2 for the main path. If the dev didn't have NTR, it'd be 4 for the main path! Grrr!" The problem of course is that the same argument can be applied to...well, literally any game that has a fetish you don't like. Also, as a developer, the reason there are 4 scenes is because I'm dividing the paths. If I wasn't, the update would just have two scenes, simple as.

On one hand, I get it. I instantly stop supporting a dev working on two games if I only like one of the games. On the other, I don't brigade the dev with bad reviews, shitpost in the thread, psychoanalyze everyone who either enjoys both games or doesn't care enough to stop supporting the dev, and build up a healthy number of thread locks and bans.

As someone whose stance on NTR is "I can take it or leave it", I think the reason other fetishes join forces to fight off anti-NTR people is because they're so disruptive and entitled. Broad strokes, I know.

 

[mtuytj]

I feel like a lot of people think in simplistic terms like "if devs didn't make ntr then they would make more stuff that I like!" Also like u mentioned with the vegan restaurant, many people have a us vs them mentality and veganism is kinda out of fashion at this point so maybe this is what they're doing now?

I'm in this boat a bit, I think. I'll play a game with optional NTR, but I'll never even consider monetarily supporting it, because from my perspective part of the money I spend is being wasted on stuff I'll never touch with a ten foot pole. It's not just NTR, I'd do the same with other "questionable" fetishes like bestiality etc. But NTR comes up the most often because cuck fetishists are willing to shell out, similar to furries. To be clear though, leaving a bad review of a game because it has content you're not aligned with is demented (Unless the dev lied about this earlier, in which case it's just karma).

 

[Icarus Media]

Trying to keep an open mind, but it does seem like that's a common thread between anti-NTR comments. "This update has 4 scenes, 2 for the NTR patch and 2 for the main path. If the dev didn't have NTR, it'd be 4 for the main path! Grrr!" The problem of course is that the same argument can be applied to...well, literally any game that has a fetish you don't like. Also, as a developer, the reason there are 4 scenes is because I'm dividing the paths. If I wasn't, the update would just have two scenes, simple as.

On one hand, I get it. I instantly stop supporting a dev working on two games if I only like one of the games. On the other, I don't brigade the dev with bad reviews, shitpost in the thread, psychoanalyze everyone who either enjoys both games or doesn't care enough to stop supporting the dev, and build up a healthy number of thread locks and bans.

As someone whose stance on NTR is "I can take it or leave it", I think the reason other fetishes join forces to fight off anti-NTR people is because they're so disruptive and entitled. Broad strokes, I know.

https://f95zone.to/threads/rising-bliss-v1-0-2-studio-mystic.105635/post-10533996 Some of them don't stop at that but threaten to physically kill devs.

 

[mtuytj]

https://f95zone.to/threads/rising-bliss-v1-0-2-studio-mystic.105635/post-10533996 Some of them don't stop at that but threaten to physically kill devs.

Some people are just mentally ill. Some dude did the same with the detective necro dev to try to make him add NTR iirc but threatened to kill his whole family and had personal details or something? He recently came back (yay) after cancelling his game because of it

 

[Zakharova]

https://f95zone.to/threads/rising-bliss-v1-0-2-studio-mystic.105635/post-10533996 Some of them don't stop at that but threaten to physically kill devs.

male insecurity is a hell of a drug

 

[eaudecologne]

male insecurity is a hell of a drug

Haha you probably have lots of experience with that

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

Buddy, I can more or less guess the answer, and honestly, I’ve started to think this isn’t just about NTR.

It feels more like it comes from a broader mindset of “things I don’t like shouldn’t exist at all.”
Still, I’m genuinely trying to understand it and figure out whether that’s really the core issue.

From the roguelike example, it seems we think in a similar way, and being understood like that honestly makes me happy.

However, when we choose a harsher tone, we end up getting defenses instead of real answers, because that kind of language can come across as somewhat aggressive.
That’s why I want to add this as well: a harsher tone tends to turn a discussion into an argument, and that’s something I’d like to avoid.

There are ton of reasons but the #1 reason for the crash-outs are that many people play porn games because they cannot get a girlfriend (and the girls they like are dating other guys, have friend-zoned them or left them for another guy etc)... so having the escapist/power fantasy media they consume to escape that include that can be a big trigger. 'my crush just rejected me and started dating another guy, I am going to play some porn games' and then halfway through they get the option for their escapist video game partner to cheat on them with another guy.

Then there are the conspiracy nuts who think it is a conspiracy by 'them' to make men weak

Those are your two most rabid anti NTR camps (there are a few others but those seem to be the two that type in all caps and go crazy at the mention of NTR).

 

[chainedpanda]

I'm sure this has already been answered to some degree already, but I'll still add my own personal perspective to this.

NTR is always going to be one of those kinks that causes a portion of the population to have very strong feelings towards it. It is fundamentally one of the few kinks designed for emotional impact, plus, it's one of the very few which can be incorporated into adult content with relative ease. So, it's really only natural that some people have a vitriolic reaction to it.

This problem is amplified because there is a subset of players who immerse themselves into the game. Losing themselves into the fantasy provided by the game, or effectively the player becomes the protagonist. When the protagonist gets cheated on, it's the same as the player getting cheated on, therefore it's naturally a very emotional tag for the player.

That said, NTR wasn't always the controversial fetish it is now. In fact, when I first joined this community, most people didn't give a shit. It was just one of those fetishes that you either engaged in, or didn't. However, there was a perfect storm that led NTR to become what it is now. (also fun fact, the blacklisted tags option was created largely because of the NTR hate lol)

At the time, searching for games was different, there was no "exclude x tag option", meaning many players downloaded NTR by mistake. Then, at some point a very small minority of NTR lovers appeared, and they began requesting developers to add NTR into their game. As a result, one or two developers listened to them, adding NTR, which was basically the worst kind of NTR since the game didn't have the NTR tag on their page, and the games fans weren't expecting it either. Though the games were niche, and not very popular to begin with (and were abandoned later), it created the perfect storm, basically became like the Red Scare in the United States as a small minority of NTR haters became terrified that more games would include surprise NTR scenes.

And so, those paranoid players became aggressive towards developers, annoying more casual players, or those who didn't care. Arguments exploded all across the site, and there was basically no thread safe from it. Moderators were working overtime, cleaning forum pages that devolved into NTR-hate threads. Most players and developers became annoyed at the NTR haters, basically fostering a general "NTR hater hater" sentiment across the platform which only fueled the aggression and extreme views of the NTR haters who felt like the community wanted more NTR. And thus the number of NTR haters increased, and grew into what it is now.

During that time, the more casual players had suggested that developers should just make NTR optional. A reasonable suggestion that many NTR haters accepted. While many devs agreed, the implementation was bad. While the exact NTR scene became hidden behind a choice, the consequences of the event remained. Characters and even the protagonist would talk about it in normal conversation, love interests would still flirt with others, and basically NTR was optional in name only. Basically like the scene was censored, but not removed entirely. Thus, fostering new fear within the NTR haters who could not trust tags being labeled as "optional". Further fueling the fear, hatred and anger directed at the NTR tag.

That's how we got to where we are now. Fun isn't it?

I am an NTR hater who developed extreme views regarding it. I have matured, and my hate decreased. After going through therapy, and touching grass more frequently, I have looked back on NTR many times, and this is the conclusion/history that I've come to. So, take it as biased if you want.

Couple other facts:

• As the hatred for NTR grew, the definition of what NTR is has changed. Some tags that aren't the strict definition of NTR is often labeled as NTR by haters (lesbian, bestiality, Group sex, etc.) Basically anything where a lover is involved with someone, or something else may be called NTR by the most extreme. This further ostracized the community against the NTR haters, furthering the extreme views. (I suspect this is why the mods changed the tag name from "NTR" to "Netorare" as a way to further define the tag.)
• The rise in popularity of the "Harem" tag can almost be tracked alongside the rise in NTR hate.
• During the initial rise in hatred towards NTR, the "Fat/Ugly Bastard" troupe in Hentai was popular in hentai comics, since that genre was almost exclusively NTR/Rape focused, it was partly to blame for the rise of NTR-hate.

 

[desmosome]

I'm sure this has already been answered to some degree already, but I'll still add my own personal perspective to this.

NTR is always going to be one of those kinks that causes a portion of the population to have very strong feelings towards it. It is fundamentally one of the few kinks designed for emotional impact, plus, it's one of the very few which can be incorporated into adult content with relative ease. So, it's really only natural that some people have a vitriolic reaction to it.

This problem is amplified because there is a subset of players who immerse themselves into the game. Losing themselves into the fantasy provided by the game, or effectively the player becomes the protagonist. When the protagonist gets cheated on, it's the same as the player getting cheated on, therefore it's naturally a very emotional tag for the player.

That said, NTR wasn't always the controversial fetish it is now. In fact, when I first joined this community, most people didn't give a shit. It was just one of those fetishes that you either engaged in, or didn't. However, there was a perfect storm that led NTR to become what it is now. (also fun fact, the blacklisted tags option was created largely because of the NTR hate lol)

At the time, searching for games was different, there was no "exclude x tag option", meaning many players downloaded NTR by mistake. Then, at some point a very small minority of NTR lovers appeared, and they began requesting developers to add NTR into their game. As a result, one or two developers listened to them, adding NTR, which was basically the worst kind of NTR since the game didn't have the NTR tag on their page, and the games fans weren't expecting it either. Though the games were niche, and not very popular to begin with (and were abandoned later), it created the perfect storm, basically became like the Red Scare in the United States as a small minority of NTR haters became terrified that more games would include surprise NTR scenes.

And so, those paranoid players became aggressive towards developers, annoying more casual players, or those who didn't care. Arguments exploded all across the site, and there was basically no thread safe from it. Moderators were working overtime, cleaning forum pages that devolved into NTR-hate threads. Most players and developers became annoyed at the NTR haters, basically fostering a general "NTR hater hater" sentiment across the platform which only fueled the aggression and extreme views of the NTR haters who felt like the community wanted more NTR. And thus the number of NTR haters increased, and grew into what it is now.

During that time, the more casual players had suggested that developers should just make NTR optional. A reasonable suggestion that many NTR haters accepted. While many devs agreed, the implementation was bad. While the exact NTR scene became hidden behind a choice, the consequences of the event remained. Characters and even the protagonist would talk about it in normal conversation, love interests would still flirt with others, and basically NTR was optional in name only. Basically like the scene was censored, but not removed entirely. Thus, fostering new fear within the NTR haters who could not trust tags being labeled as "optional". Further fueling the fear, hatred and anger directed at the NTR tag.

That's how we got to where we are now. Fun isn't it?

I am an NTR hater who developed extreme views regarding it. I have matured, and my hate decreased. After going through therapy, and touching grass more frequently, I have looked back on NTR many times, and this is the conclusion/history that I've come to. So, take it as biased if you want.

Couple other facts:

• As the hatred for NTR grew, the definition of what NTR is has changed. Some tags that aren't the strict definition of NTR is often labeled as NTR by haters (lesbian, bestiality, Group sex, etc.) Basically anything where a lover is involved with someone, or something else may be called NTR by the most extreme. This further ostracized the community against the NTR haters, furthering the extreme views. (I suspect this is why the mods changed the tag name from "NTR" to "Netorare" as a way to further define the tag.)
• The rise in popularity of the "Harem" tag can almost be tracked alongside the rise in NTR hate.
• During the initial rise in hatred towards NTR, the "Fat/Ugly Bastard" troupe in Hentai was popular in hentai comics, since that genre was almost exclusively NTR/Rape focused, it was partly to blame for the rise of NTR-hate.

If you were part of that harem thread by djkun, your interpretation is probably colored by your own history of being part of that group. That was an echo chamber that whipped itself into a frenzy about perceived injustices and actions of "shady devs" that supposedly tried to trick innocent players into playing NTR games by sneakily adding it in. I'm not saying there was no cases of devs adding NTR for one reason or another into a game that didn't originally had it, but the way this group of rabid anti-NTR dudes would post links to games by "shady devs" and then proceeded to rile themselves up as if they were going to battle... It was kind of hilarious, but it became a problem because they would all ride those links and brigade into game threads to cause a shitshow. At its height, literally every single game thread started with some dumb NTR war, regardless of if it had any plans for NTR.

But the biggest shitshows were indeed the ones that were ambiguous. You correctly identified that what the staunch anti-NTR people considered NTR expanded into ridiculous levels. MFF stuff were seen as NTR by some. Or literal non-LI prostitutes having sex with some John. The main delusion that was plaguing the this anti-NTR crowd (harem fans mostly), was that if a game had their harem tag, it was THEIR game. A harem game could NOT have any kind of "questionable" content. And if it does, it was the dev being shady in some way. MC's best friend has his own girlfriend and MC walks in on them doing the deed? THATS cuck shit!

I think as a whole, the community has matured since those times thanks to effective moderation and people just growing up. I myself am no exception. I was part of the eternal debates that would derail game threads for a time during those days. Anyways, I guess itch has no review standards or rules. This kind of low effort review bombing wouldn't work on F95zone.

 

[chainedpanda]

If you were part of that harem thread by djkun, your interpretation is probably colored by your own history of being part of that group. That was an echo chamber that whipped itself into a frenzy about perceived injustices and actions of "shady devs" that supposedly tried to trick innocent players into playing NTR games by sneakily adding it in. I'm not saying there was no cases of devs adding NTR for one reason or another into a game that didn't originally had it, but the way this group of rabid anti-NTR dudes would post links to games by "shady devs" and then proceeded to rile themselves up as if they were going to battle... It was kind of hilarious, but it became a problem because they would all ride those links and brigade into game threads to cause a shitshow. At its height, literally every single game thread started with some dumb NTR war, regardless of if it had any plans for NTR.

But the biggest shitshows were indeed the ones that were ambiguous. You correctly identified that what the staunch anti-NTR people considered NTR expanded into ridiculous levels. MFF stuff were seen as NTR by some. Or literal non-LI prostitutes having sex with some John. The main delusion that was plaguing the this anti-NTR crowd (harem fans mostly), was that if a game had their harem tag, it was THEIR game. A harem game could NOT have any kind of "questionable" content. And if it does, it was the dev being shady in some way. MC's best friend has his own girlfriend and MC walks in on them doing the deed? THATS cuck shit!

I think as a whole, the community has matured since those times thanks to effective moderation and people just growing up. I myself am no exception. I was part of the eternal debates that would derail game threads for a time during those days. Anyways, I guess itch has no review standards or rules. This kind of low effort review bombing wouldn't work on F95zone.

I think I missed a lot of the shady dev saga tbh, or maybe I don't remember it that well. Though, I'm not shocked to learn that there were those who believed it lol. The NTR paranoia was massive. Though, I do believe that a large amount of it originated from the NTR hater hate widespread across the community at large, causing some to grow increasingly extreme the more they fought for whatever anti-"whore" rights or whatever they were doing lol.

I was absolutely part of the NTR definition camp though! I've just accepted that there can be multiple kinks, and troupes that I dislike, but they don't have to be labeled as NTR.

 

[MattoElias]

I always stay away from NTR games. If it isn't avoidable i will never touch the game because ntr for is me a fetish that never sat right with me and frankly it makes me uneasy and disgusted. I get why people get upset by it but there are so many games out there without NTR... So just play those..

Also for all the NTR enjoyers out there... Is NTR something you purely enjoy just in adult vn's and porn or its something that you would actually participate in real life?

 

[Lust And Roll]

When I first started this discussion, I honestly didn’t expect such strong arguments to be presented or for everyone to express their opinions so clearly and thoughtfully. While there were a few moments where some people struggled to keep their emotions in check, overall a very constructive and valuable discussion emerged.

I should clarify that I am not an NTR fan myself. NTR was simply one of many themes included in my game. After seeing the reactions, I wanted to write here to better understand the situation and different perspectives.

You guys are truly amazing. I genuinely enjoy reading the solid arguments and deep analyses from both sides. The F95Zone community has really impressed me in this regard. There were moments when I was afraid this discussion might turn into a full blown war, but where it stands now feels quite balanced and reasonable. Thank you!