Interactivity for the sake of Interactivity

[lazymunchlax]

One of the core differences between a Visual Novel and other graphical mediums, is the ability to interact with it. Not all VNs do so, and how they offer Interactivity varies. Some give you a map to explore, some give you choices to make, whether they affect what images you see, what fetishes you explore and what endings you get.

The one thing that has ALWAYS bothered me in VNs, is when you have interaction for no point other than having it. A button that, honestly does absolutely nothing .

Your character has to go to an Office in the morning. Now, the story could just wake you up and skip to you being in the office, but no. Press the Wake Up Button, press the Get Dressed button, press the Shower button, Press leave house etc.

I'm not talking about open world games where you're going through a map, I mean single buttons that offer no choice, just something to click on, and often a series of them. Now, some of you might be thinking, "How lazy are you? It's just a button. Spam click!" And I respond that some games take it to the next level by making you progress through single options by hitting different objects in the room.

I dont want to go through the motions, delaying game content story or otherwise, by manually making my character do their morning routine, every morning. I've always felt that, if I have only one option, and there was never a possibility for a second option, dont give me something to click on unless it's some kind of mini game.

Furthering on. WHY DO GAMES OFFER ME THE ABILITY TO TAKE A SHOWER, IF IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING? No shower scenes, no benefits for being clean, no detriments for being dirty / smelly. WHY DO I HAVE BUTTONS THAT LITERALLY DO NOTHING?

/RANT OVER/

 

[Pretentious Goblin]

I haven't played any games like that, I don't think. I have played games that have gameplay I'd qualify as "fluff" because there's hardly any fail condition or challenge, but there's always a tiny modicum of brain power involved and more importantly, it serves the purpose of giving you something to do instead of just reading a damn novel for hours on end.

 

[lazymunchlax]

I haven't played any games like that, I don't think. I have played games that have gameplay I'd qualify as "fluff" because there's hardly any fail condition or challenge, but there's always a tiny modicum of brain power involved and more importantly, it serves the purpose of giving you something to do instead of just reading a damn novel for hours on end.

Believe me, sometimes I prefer reading a damn novel.

Fashion Business as an example, when I originally played it. There was no Map or Fast travel function, so EVERY morning in the prologue required you to ->

Change Room -> Select Wardrobe -> Choose the right outfight -> Move Room -> Move Room -> Bathe -> Return -> Return -> Wardrobe -> Choose the right outfit -> Room -> Room -> Stairs -> Room -> Room -> Eat -> Room -> Room -> Stairs -> Room -> Room -> Wardrobe

etc.

That was just for the morning routine, in which there was pretty much no variability that required you to manually do the process. As the situation changed, and you had a different living situation, most of that went away. But, you still had to do the whole Wardrobe to get your outfit on, even though you only had 1 outfit you were allowed to wear for certain situations, and you had to click through the house to do anything, and it got old.

Work in home with Uniform but cannot leave it. Meant you had to put on Uniform, move through the house, do job, move all through the house again, switch off uniform, then move through the house to leave. It was a nightmare, and Oh So pointless.

 

[DuniX]

I am interested in what kind of Interactivity and Mechanics that give meaning to Sandbox games people want to see.
The best we have seen is Trainer games where you manipulate some stats, other gameplay is event hunting and maybe something like GlassiX "Real Time" movement of NPCs, but they are pretty meaningless.
Sure you have Choices but Choices you can do in any VN not just a Sandbox.
So I am interested how would you give Interactivity any Meaning.

 

[lazymunchlax]

I am interested in what kind of Interactivity and Mechanics that give meaning to Sandbox games people want to see.
The best we have seen is Trainer games where you manipulate some stats, other gameplay is event hunting and maybe something like GlassiX "Real Time" movement of NPCs, but they are pretty meaningless.
Sure you have Choices but Choices you can do in any VN not just a Sandbox.
So I am interested how would you give Interactivity any Meaning.

If you removed any form of interactivity that didn't have any true purpose, because you could only do one thing. We'd have more games with the ability to kinda just hold CTRL and skip through the entirety, it'd be a novel at that point. Games that truly manipulate stats, give free roam, actual choice, items. Those have meaning.

A game that is truly just telling a single story, a story you must follow with no choice, and has no true ability to roam around and do things in the order you want. A game that follows a strict path, there is no point for any form of clicking in that game outside of Getting the next dialogue.

 

[cesid]

I don't like too, but what you are talking about seems more about a trick for pacing the story (you need some seconds to click the right spot instead of just click for continue) rather than interactivity. I mean there isn't even A and B choice!

 

[KurtS]

The worst thing about most VNs is the fake choice. Because in reality you have no choice - you have to follow the path predetermined by the author. A good story should change depending on the choice, but not lead to the defeat of the player.

 

[Deleted member 3145675]

Believe me, sometimes I prefer reading a damn novel.

Fashion Business as an example, when I originally played it. There was no Map or Fast travel function, so EVERY morning in the prologue required you to ->

Change Room -> Select Wardrobe -> Choose the right outfight -> Move Room -> Move Room -> Bathe -> Return -> Return -> Wardrobe -> Choose the right outfit -> Room -> Room -> Stairs -> Room -> Room -> Eat -> Room -> Room -> Stairs -> Room -> Room -> Wardrobe

etc.

That was just for the morning routine, in which there was pretty much no variability that required you to manually do the process. As the situation changed, and you had a different living situation, most of that went away. But, you still had to do the whole Wardrobe to get your outfit on, even though you only had 1 outfit you were allowed to wear for certain situations, and you had to click through the house to do anything, and it got old.

Work in home with Uniform but cannot leave it. Meant you had to put on Uniform, move through the house, do job, move all through the house again, switch off uniform, then move through the house to leave. It was a nightmare, and Oh So pointless.

That's called "immersive gameplay"


(some people actually like that crap)

 

[lazymunchlax]

The worst thing about most VNs is the fake choice. Because in reality you have no choice - you have to follow the path predetermined by the author. A good story should change depending on the choice, but not lead to the defeat of the player.

Sometimes that's true. Take Fashion Business as an example. There's a rich character that's in love with you. They also have the ability to save your life and give you what you want. Marrying them is the logical choice, your life pretty much would be no different to what it was before the bad thing happened, so you expect her to do it. The problem is, doing it undermines the entire point of the game, so doing it gives you a GOOD END in the prologue, and in order to progress the game, you make the less optimal choices.

Also, actual choice can be a limiting factor because of variability. The more paths you open, the more complex the action is and the more time you spend making content that the player may never see.

If I give you 10 paths, either you play the game 10 times or I've potentially done 10x as much work for nothing. Pregnancy is my go to example for this. Imagine a game that spans over a period of 12 months. For each month, you might need to re-render every scene a character is in, depending on what stage she is pregnant. Add in scenes which might feature multiple pregnant characters at different stages of being pregnant and you end up with the potential for an exponential growth in renders.

While it might be more entertaining, it's a LOT more time, effort and money and it's up to the dev to decide if it's worth it.

 

[c.o.w]

some people add stuff on their games for the sake of why not, wherever i play a videogame i go and see if i can flush the toilet or not, it does absolute nothing but hey i can

 

[KurtS]

If I give you 10 paths

I don't need that much. At least two choices, but real and important for the story.

 

[lazymunchlax]

I don't need that much. At least two choices, but real and important for the story.

Just an example.

The more the game grows in size, the higher the complexity scales when you have big plot choices. The more characters there are, the more that complicates things as well.

Some developers on here have repeatedly tried to create games akin to a "Life simulator" but they always flop because of how much work is required.

I think you could probably get new and upcoming Developers to make that sort of game, as it could be smaller and lite, focusing on two paths for one character, or a path each for two characters etc.

 

[khumak]

I don't mind a game including some mundane tasks but only if it can lead to a more interesting scene. If me making breakfast never leads to an interesting scene then it doesn't need to be in the game. Everyone knows people need to eat. Unless something interesting is going to happen I don't need to see it. It's just assumed.

You don't have to set up EVERY action your character does to include something interesting every time but I'm not a fan of including things that are NEVER interesting.

One of my pet peeves is dialog choices that are entirely meaningless. If both options lead to exactly the same outcome then what's the point of the choice? I've played quite a few VNs that are not really even a game, they're just a virtual comic book where the outcome is predetermined and you're basically just turning pages. If you tell me that's what it is then I'm ok with that but don't tell me it's a game and then give me zero choices.

 

[Adabelitoo]

I get what the OP says. Waifu Academy has that sometimes. The only one I remember right now is while going to the school every morning and you have one single menu choice. I get that the point is making the player feel as if THEY decided to go to the school and not because the dev forced them to do that, but in reality the dev is forcing us to do that anyway no matter if we see 1 or 9 menu options.

Waifu's Academy devs also uses the single option menu as a way to stop people from pressing Ctrl and read the damn story. I think that's a clever way to use when you can notice the intention but when that's not the case I usually think that maybe if I did something different before, that single option would be two options.

 

[lazymunchlax]

Waifu's Academy devs also uses the single option menu as a way to stop people from pressing Ctrl and read the damn story. I think that's a clever way to use when you can notice the intention but when that's not the case I usually think that maybe if I did something different before, that single option would be two options.

I have mastered the art of having one finger on control and another ready to click a mouse, works so long as the button remains stationary. Becomes a ballache if you're making me click on randomly placed objects.

Want me to not skip? Give me interesting dialogue. I'm sorry, but the japanese waifu simulator that's been translated off of Google Translate is going to struggle to hold my attention without some really compelling story or character building that'll invest me in wanting to read it. Until then, it's just like WoW, pointless quest dialogue I want to skip through to get to what I want.

 

[rk-47]

i find VNs as youve mentioned with a map a little worse, like why do i have all these options on the map that when i pick a place nothing will ever happen there? timestamps suffers from this where there is a blue dot on the map which tell you where to go... okay? so just have me go there without picking on the map? In like 2 scenarios are you actually able to have 2 choices to go on the map but majority of the time there is one blue dot and every other location will have no characters there or events

 

[Sphere42]

Honestly even the repetitive morning routine could be a good design element if the author intentionally used it as such. If the perspective character is supposed to feel hopelessly bored by the daily grind as an incentive to explore the less savoury parts of the game's content (e.g. the traditional businessman/woman going to wild fuck fest parties) then this seems like an excellent tool to immerse the player in the story. A single opening run-through can be good for worldbuilding too: do you sleep alone in a penthouse suite, apply name-brand aftershave and dress in an immaculately ironed suit, or do you slump out of a rickety pile of driftwood, shoo a cockroach out of the sink and scoff down a piece of plain toast while scrambling for the least stained t-shirt?

Be it VNs, sandboxes or anything in between the issue with these elements always seems to be the same: they do not matter! They should matter in some way but they don't. The environments are generic and lacking detail despite that not being the point of the scene, they don't change to reflect your choices or the progression of the story and if they are presented as gameplay elements that's usually a lie too. Brush your teeth/hair? Doesn't matter unless your cosmetic hair style option got reset by a previous event. Your long-time crush will definitely not comment on your bad breath when you finally get to kiss after work/school that day. Or maybe it's one of those games and you get rejected for a Game Over. Deliberately eke out a few extra minutes by skipping hygiene in a time management sandbox? Joke's on you, all other activities are portioned into neat 15min blocks and entering work/school resets the clock so you gain nothing. And of course this routine never seems to change as the game progresses whether you went to bed early, pulled an all-nighter to make time for your date or spent the weekend guzzling down cum and piss at a gloryhole.

What's baffling to me is that most of these games have no qualms abstracting some aspects of daily routine - how often do we even see what our PC eats for breakfast let alone cooking, cleaning, commuting or the actual work they do outside of sexy events - yet some of these time-wasting fillers always seem to creep in despite being as erotic as scrubbing a saucepan. At least incest games or female protagonists usually have a few sexy poses to enjoy the first time around before you autoskip.

 

[lazymunchlax]

Honestly even the repetitive morning routine could be a good design element if the author intentionally used it as such. If the perspective character is supposed to feel hopelessly bored by the daily grind as an incentive to explore the less savoury parts of the game's content (e.g. the traditional businessman/woman going to wild fuck fest parties) then this seems like an excellent tool to immerse the player in the story. A single opening run-through can be good for worldbuilding too: do you sleep alone in a penthouse suite, apply name-brand aftershave and dress in an immaculately ironed suit, or do you slump out of a rickety pile of driftwood, shoo a cockroach out of the sink and scoff down a piece of plain toast while scrambling for the least stained t-shirt?

Be it VNs, sandboxes or anything in between the issue with these elements always seems to be the same: they do not matter! They should matter in some way but they don't. The environments are generic and lacking detail despite that not being the point of the scene, they don't change to reflect your choices or the progression of the story and if they are presented as gameplay elements that's usually a lie too. Brush your teeth/hair? Doesn't matter unless your cosmetic hair style option got reset by a previous event. Your long-time crush will definitely not comment on your bad breath when you finally get to kiss after work/school that day. Or maybe it's one of those games and you get rejected for a Game Over. Deliberately eke out a few extra minutes by skipping hygiene in a time management sandbox? Joke's on you, all other activities are portioned into neat 15min blocks and entering work/school resets the clock so you gain nothing. And of course this routine never seems to change as the game progresses whether you went to bed early, pulled an all-nighter to make time for your date or spent the weekend guzzling down cum and piss at a gloryhole.

What's baffling to me is that most of these games have no qualms abstracting some aspects of daily routine - how often do we even see what our PC eats for breakfast let alone cooking, cleaning, commuting or the actual work they do outside of sexy events - yet some of these time-wasting fillers always seem to creep in despite being as erotic as scrubbing a saucepan. At least incest games or female protagonists usually have a few sexy poses to enjoy the first time around before you autoskip.

And no matter what anyone says, if I can pee in the toilet, I always will. Maybe one day, a VN with a pee option will result in anything... Though I swear, if peeing is denying me valuable watersports content, I'll be pissed!

 

[Sphere42]

And no matter what anyone says, if I can pee in the toilet, I always will. Maybe one day, a VN with a pee option will result in anything... Though I swear, if peeing is denying me valuable watersports content, I'll be pissed!

If you want watersports you probably should avoid peeing in the toilet unless multiple context clues or a walkthrough make it 110% certain there's another character present. That one stock "psssshht" still image you might miss can be grabbed from a CG rip or something later. And if denied the content you probably won't be pissed or pissing any time soon

 

[Buddawg]

Interactivity or not, for me it comes down to the storyline. If its good, then Im hooked regardless, if its badly written... there is no interactivity that can make me keep playing.

Yes I do love good interactivity, and choices that matter. But I also absolutely hate when that choice carries over to EVERYTHING.
A good example for me is Hornstown. Great game, great interactions with great sectionalized actions and events.... but sleep with a certain type or do a certain type of thing twice too many, and youre now full fledged gay, or sub/dom/bimbo/whore... and it carries over into every single relationship you get into. You can now ONLY play as such, and you get locked out of a SHIT ton of action you would prefer to try. And this is especially wrong in this kind of game, because it leaves choices OUT for the rest of the game for the rest of the characters you meet.
And I find that extremely annoying. I might like one sub path, but ALL of them with EVERY SINGLE PERSON i meet... NO.
That kind of interactivity makes me play the game once.. and not bother trying it again.