I've noticed that the narrative of games like Milfy City makes more sense when you pursue one girl at a time

[Joshua Tree]

I have almost 2000 hours on that game lol. Now that they allowed seducing a relative using seduction focus, been inbreeding my dynasty to death literally

Well, it get real interesting when you get into the position to reform your religion. Make the bloodlines, more pure, lol.

 

[kytee]

Well, it get real interesting when you get into the position to reform your religion. Make the bloodlines, more pure, lol.

I feel like Divine Marriage makes it too easy though, although being Zoroastrian gives you a reduction in Inbred trait popping up. I like being a Christian, it just feels all the more bad

 

[polywog]

Pretty much that! My biggest problems in games like visual novels is "missables". It doesn't make sense, same with a game over. A bad ending is one thing, but it would be a consequence of your choices, and you should really be told what you did wrong instead of somehow try to find out what the hell you screwed.

I remember an old japanese VN where the "Easy mode" told you what each choice did instead of having you figuring out, I think that was pretty nice.

If you are making a game with such consequences, and if you are going to "game over" the player, I think it's worth at least telling the player what each action do exactly, and that way it would only be fair if the player fails or not.

Basically, always give information, that way the player at least will sense and know what they need to change to avoid those pitfalls.

Some people like having a walkthrough that tells them every step.
Some people like figuring it out on their own.

Everything happens for a reason, especially in games... if the dialog gives you three options of what to say, you need to read all three choices, and think about the effect they could have. It's not just random. If you tell one girl that you love her, in front of other girls, there will be consequences. All of the girls are going to lose respect for you.
If you choose the "I have to go, I've got things to do" option, then all of the girls are going to be more interested in you.
No girl respects a dope who licks her boots and says stupid shit like "I love you"
There's no right or wrong answer, they all are valid choices that you can choose on a play through. Test them all to see what happens. Try the "I love you" route, and see the pathetic ending. Then play again and tell her that you have better things to do. She doesn't want you, if you want her, she only wants you if she thinks her friend is going to get you, that's how girls think.
After 3 or 4 play-throughs, it all makes sense without a walkthrough, you've learned what to do to get each girl.
Don't try to use male-logic, or common sense, it won't work. It might if the dev is a virgin, but that's rare, most of these devs are players

 

[AmazonessKing]

If you NEED a walkthrough for a game or need to play it multiple times, then I think it's already counter intuitive, and thus bad game design.

I said that you need to be more specific because it's all subjective and in context of the game. If you have a better explanation of what an action do instead of "This will surely make me more interesting", it will work better, because the dev maybe didn't think it would make you more interesting but rather you will look like a dick, and that can even depend on the girl.

I understand that having you testing multiple routes adds replayability, but I see that redundant in a visual novel where all you are going to do is read the same thing but with an slightly altered dialogue. Not that it's a bad thing, but I think there are better ways to do it.

 

[Joshua Tree]

If you NEED a walkthrough for a game or need to play it multiple times, then I think it's already counter intuitive, and thus bad game design.

I said that you need to be more specific because it's all subjective and in context of the game. If you have a better explanation of what an action do instead of "This will surely make me more interesting", it will work better, because the dev maybe didn't think it would make you more interesting but rather you will look like a dick, and that can even depend on the girl.

I understand that having you testing multiple routes adds replayability, but I see that redundant in a visual novel where all you are going to do is read the same thing but with an slightly altered dialogue. Not that it's a bad thing, but I think there are better ways to do it.

Uh, it make perfect sense to have multiple/different outcomes in games where choices got consequences and matters though.
Just play just about any RPG game that allow for being goodie two shoes, pure evil, or something in between, will end up with different solutions and outcomes. Bad game design is to go against logic and consequences of choices imho.

There is VN's of the type that just hold your hand through a story leave you with next to no choices other than just tag along for the journey, regardless if you like to get stuffed up the baguette chute, or jammed down the throat. And then there is the likes of GGGB, that got so many options and paths that the player end up really need a walkthrough to figure out all the outcomes (or spend an awful lot of time with the game).

 

[polywog]

If you NEED a walkthrough for a game or need to play it multiple times, then I think it's already counter intuitive, and thus bad game design.

Baseball, hockey, footfall, soccer... bad game design. If you've seen one ball-game, you've seen them all. People keep playing these things for a hundred years. Fans buy tickets, and sit in the sun in a stadium to watch the same shit over and over again. you should give them a walkthrough.

Golf is counter-intuitive trying to put it in 18 holes with as few strokes as possible??? WTF I feel sorry for golfer's girlfriends. 3 strokes per hole and he's done.

 

[AmazonessKing]

Uh, it make perfect sense to have multiple/different outcomes in games where choices got consequences and matters though.

Sure, but locking you out of content because of those choices is really dumb. I'm not saying consequences shouldn't exists, but rather that consequences shouldn't have you going back and forth between text, because that's not interesting and it's just redundant. In most other video game genres I would agree, for example, I like how Shadow the Hedgehog have you backtracking the level in some cases, but that's just not really viable in kinetic VNs. I guess in sand boxes is different, but even then, my problem is that the gameplay revolves around reading, so instead of having you explore things as you would in any other kind of game, you do it so by reading, and, as said, that's not all that interesting and can get repetitive.

Since we are talking about games like Milfy City, then it applies even more. Basically, I think there should be a balance between backtracking for hidden or different stuff and the time you spend on backtracking, and seeing how these games are mostly about reading, then "backtracking" hardly applies and it's most of a waste of time than anything, BUT a completely linear game sounds boring, as you stated.

My point is, as stated before, that, say, an "Easy mode" would basically be a self-implemented walkthrough, with clear descriptions of what each option do, which one is better, and so on and so forth. And even then, a normal mode should have enough information for you to figure out what is going to happen without needing a walkthrough or trial and error. That means that the second time you are going to play you can know exactly where you went wrong, and retry.

These kind of choices are really hard to balance, but see it as in RPGs: When you get new weapons, you are going to compare them with the old weapons you had, and you may not choose the "best" weapon, but the one you may like the most. Applied to VNs, if you are given at least who that choice will affect, then it would be easier to the player to choose WHAT THEY WANT, not what is empirically "better" or "worse".

Baseball, hockey, footfall, soccer... bad game design

Those are not video games, and your analogy is... Weird, to say the least.. Practice makes perfect, but the thing is, if you do like a book, which is the most closer example to a VN, you will read it again without having to rely on gimmicks. You don't need to "practice reading a book", and the only thing you can improve is your reading comprehension.

Even then, as an sportsman, regardless of your sport, what you are doing is "min-maxing" your options. It's not just a matter of "I do this blindly over and over and I get better", you need the right technique, a good coach, and then minimize the time you spend trying to better yourself while maximizing the gains of that action. If you don't, then you indeed have a bad coach or a bad exercise routine, and that can equal to bad game design.

My problem with the term "replayability" is something more personal. Personally, if I finish a game once, and that includes finishing all the endings, I expect not having to go back to do menial stuff And I think my best example for this is Banjo-Kazooie compared to Mario 64, actually.. That would just be extending the game time artificially.

"You completed the game! But there are exclusive bad ending CGs! So you have to lose on purpose in order to get 100%!", I think that sounds just terrible. If something, there are games that allow you to 100% the game is you finish the best ending, and that includes giving you the "bad endings" CG, if there are some in the first place.

 

[polywog]

My problem with the term "replayability" is something more personal.

Well, at least you admit that you have a personal problem, so that's a start.

Maybe you have trouble playing the game again, because...
The dev didn't include a shower scene at the beginning of the game, where she cleans herself. You know that you left her covered in cum the last time you played, and you have a hard time getting past that mental image, knowing that she hasn't bathed. I can see where you're cumming from with that. Devs should anticipate these things, and put that shower scene in every game. So gross when the girl is all dirty like that.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Sure, but locking you out of content because of those choices is really dumb. I'm not saying consequences shouldn't exists, but rather that consequences shouldn't have you going back and forth between text, because that's not interesting and it's just redundant. In most other video game genres I would agree, for example, I like how Shadow the Hedgehog have you backtracking the level in some cases, but that's just not really viable in kinetic VNs. I guess in sand boxes is different, but even then, my problem is that the gameplay revolves around reading, so instead of having you explore things as you would in any other kind of game, you do it so by reading, and, as said, that's not all that interesting and can get repetitive.

Since we are talking about games like Milfy City, then it applies even more. Basically, I think there should be a balance between backtracking for hidden or different stuff and the time you spend on backtracking, and seeing how these games are mostly about reading, then "backtracking" hardly applies and it's most of a waste of time than anything, BUT a completely linear game sounds boring, as you stated.

My point is, as stated before, that, say, an "Easy mode" would basically be a self-implemented walkthrough, with clear descriptions of what each option do, which one is better, and so on and so forth. And even then, a normal mode should have enough information for you to figure out what is going to happen without needing a walkthrough or trial and error. That means that the second time you are going to play you can know exactly where you went wrong, and retry.

These kind of choices are really hard to balance, but see it as in RPGs: When you get new weapons, you are going to compare them with the old weapons you had, and you may not choose the "best" weapon, but the one you may like the most. Applied to VNs, if you are given at least who that choice will affect, then it would be easier to the player to choose WHAT THEY WANT, not what is empirically "better" or "worse".


Those are not video games, and your analogy is... Weird, to say the least.. Practice makes perfect, but the thing is, if you do like a book, which is the most closer example to a VN, you will read it again without having to rely on gimmicks. You don't need to "practice reading a book", and the only thing you can improve is your reading comprehension.

Even then, as an sportsman, regardless of your sport, what you are doing is "min-maxing" your options. It's not just a matter of "I do this blindly over and over and I get better", you need the right technique, a good coach, and then minimize the time you spend trying to better yourself while maximizing the gains of that action. If you don't, then you indeed have a bad coach or a bad exercise routine, and that can equal to bad game design.

My problem with the term "replayability" is something more personal. Personally, if I finish a game once, and that includes finishing all the endings, I expect not having to go back to do menial stuff And I think my best example for this is Banjo-Kazooie compared to Mario 64, actually.. That would just be extending the game time artificially.

"You completed the game! But there are exclusive bad ending CGs! So you have to lose on purpose in order to get 100%!", I think that sounds just terrible. If something, there are games that allow you to 100% the game is you finish the best ending, and that includes giving you the "bad endings" CG, if there are some in the first place.

Sometimes striving towards a particular ending is what the player want to do though. Thus have to unlock content along the way that is needed to do so. Just as a player that want another kind of ending. Of course applying for games where such is possible.

I don't understand why you should have to read the same text again to see content you didn't get to the first time though. Because it would be natural scenes/text should then change based on your decisions. Not providing that I would almost claim bad workmanship by the creator.

Oh, and that the tadpole doesn't see the difference between a walkthrough for a game, and rules for sports. Well that is on him also no football, hockey, whatever game is the same just because they follow the same rules when playing.

 

[polywog]

Oh, and that the tadpole doesn't see the difference between a walkthrough for a game, and rules for sports. Well that is on him also no football, hockey, whatever game is the same just because they follow the same rules when playing.

It's you who doesn't understand games. A walkthrough is comparable to a playbook for sports, not a rulebook. The rules don't change, but the game does, depending on the play. A typical walkthrough only shows a few possible plays, maybe all a VN has to offer, but it won't show you every possible outcome of a real game that has infinite possibilities. You make your own plays.

Fans watch football for the tackles, they want to see blood. Bragging rights "I was there when _____ got his back broken, ending his career. Sold my ticket stub on eBay for $1000.00" If you just watch sports to see the ball go in and out of the goal, you'd be better off just watching porn. Fans don't just want to score with the girl, they want to see her punished, tackled, and spiked in the end zone. The agony of defeat as she takes one on the chin. To see her fumble the balls, and land on her ass. better than just watching when you control the action.

 

[Joshua Tree]

It's you who doesn't understand games. A walkthrough is comparable to a playbook for sports, not a rulebook. The rules don't change, but the game does, depending on the play. A typical walkthrough only shows a few possible plays, maybe all a VN has to offer, but it won't show you every possible outcome of a real game that has infinite possibilities. You make your own plays.

Fans watch football for the tackles, they want to see blood. Bragging rights "I was there when _____ got his back broken, ending his career. Sold my ticket stub on eBay for $1000.00" If you just watch sports to see the ball go in and out of the goal, you'd be better off just watching porn. Fans don't just want to score with the girl, they want to see her punished, tackled, and spiked in the end zone. The agony of defeat as she takes one on the chin. To see her fumble the balls, and land on her ass. better than just watching when you control the action.

View attachment 427314

It's a poor example, because you are not playing minesweeper or something similar. You playing some adult game where most outcomes is pre-defined on choice by player. Sport games, such as football, or whatever. Even the teams use tactics, playbooks and all that, no game is pre-defined to have the same outcome, unless you want to argue, win, loose or tie is. Which is stupid, because the journey to get there is always different. You can argue some games got playbooks and rules too. Just take table top d&d for example. It doesn't make it a walkthrough.

 

[polywog]

no game is pre-defined to have the same outcome

those are called Visual Novels. not games

unless you want to argue, win, loose or tie is. Which is stupid, because the journey to get there is always different.

Stupid?? Sports betting is a trillion dollar industry. Not to mention highly profitable for players, and investors. It's even subsidized by tax dollars. If ICSTOR releases v.06 today, i'll make $500 on a side bet.

Even with a walkthrough, you aren't always going to beat the MonsterGirl, if she freezes your penis and shatters it into a million pieces, it's game over... OK, so maybe you'd keep playing dickless mode, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it affects the rest of the gameplay from that point on.

 

[Xill]

Wait wait wait wait, Milf City has a story?!

To be honest most sandbox games suffer from story problems because of their non linear nature, with no enforced play order context becomes variable, that's why it takes far more careful writing to build a compelling story in a sandbox than in a VN. In a VN you know all of the potential actions a player has taken or could take before the current moment and can tailor the dialogue to fit, sandboxes can't do that and often fail on story because each scene is divorced from the others, save the few required to reach the current scene, in that way each "line" follows it's own discrete story and is irrelevant of the others.

Yes, i am biased toward VN's but that's just because i prefer story and intrigue, the latter of which is very hard to do in a sandbox game due to the potential disorder of scenes, effectively neutering the structure required for a more compelling story or at least certain types of story.

Sorry if I'm bumping this thread, but I've actually been thinking about this for the past couple of days after I played BaDIK.

If I understand correctly, VN games are the type of games that are linear and you go through the game making choices and the story more or less gets shaped by those choices. A good example of this would be BaDIK or Good Girl Gone Bad.

A sandbox game is where you can just choose one character and persue them without ever touching the others. Like Milfy City.

Another good example of VN and Sandbox would be Dreams of Desire and Midnight Paradise respectively. (both made by the same dev).

So I'm wondering, why do games like F.I.L.F and My Cute Roommate have the VN prefix? I'd even say The Tyrant doesn't need it because you can just skip days. I'm actually leaning towards VN games lately but it's kinda confusing when you see a game that has the VN prefix but it's clearly not. Unless I'm missing something and I don't understand what VN really is?

 

[Volta]

Sorry if I'm bumping this thread, but I've actually been thinking about this for the past couple of days after I played BaDIK.

If I understand correctly, VN games are the type of games that are linear and you go through the game making choices and the story more or less gets shaped by those choices. A good example of this would be BaDIK or Good Girl Gone Bad.

A sandbox game is where you can just choose one character and persue them without ever touching the others. Like Milfy City.

Another good example of VN and Sandbox would be Dreams of Desire and Midnight Paradise respectively. (both made by the same dev).

So I'm wondering, why do games like F.I.L.F and My Cute Roommate have the VN prefix? I'd even say The Tyrant doesn't need it because you can just skip days. I'm actually leaning towards VN games lately but it's kinda confusing when you see a game that has the VN prefix but it's clearly not. Unless I'm missing something and I don't understand what VN really is?

VN just stands for "visual novel", not that that really matches well with things like the tyrant too well IMO, though i can see why people say that, in fact Midnight Paradise has been refered too as a "sandbox VN" by doc Sin, the dev of that game, if even the game's dev doesn't know what to call it what chance do we have lol.

What makes up a VN and what differentiates it from a sandbox is tough to say, for me story elements referring to each other rather than existing in a context-less vacuum is a good acid test, Midnight Paradise is more of a sandbox with a VN story cut through the middle, the dev himself said that he had previous drafts of MP before he returned to an Incest setting, which just like FFXV and the justice league movie leave me wondering what the thing would have looked like before the edits hit them.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Sorry if I'm bumping this thread, but I've actually been thinking about this for the past couple of days after I played BaDIK.

If I understand correctly, VN games are the type of games that are linear and you go through the game making choices and the story more or less gets shaped by those choices. A good example of this would be BaDIK or Good Girl Gone Bad.

A sandbox game is where you can just choose one character and persue them without ever touching the others. Like Milfy City.

Another good example of VN and Sandbox would be Dreams of Desire and Midnight Paradise respectively. (both made by the same dev).

So I'm wondering, why do games like F.I.L.F and My Cute Roommate have the VN prefix? I'd even say The Tyrant doesn't need it because you can just skip days. I'm actually leaning towards VN games lately but it's kinda confusing when you see a game that has the VN prefix but it's clearly not. Unless I'm missing something and I don't understand what VN really is?

Games can be hybrid's as well, you don't have to jam a game into a certain category. Also, sandbox games in general doesn't necessary let you focus on just one part of the story. Not talking just adult games now. Like some character interaction might be needed to unlock events with your primary focus. Take like GTA5 as example, if you just want to focus on Franklin's story, the game won't really go to far for you.

 

[SeventhVixen]

Branching logic is hell. I spent most of my dev time making sure all possible options of the player has taken into account everytime it matters, and that's a lot of coding logic. (Also, making sure all logic is ready to support changes of mind in the future)

So yes, it is possible that in some nonlinear visual novels, some of the stories may be more understable/engaging if not mixed at the same time with other stories. But all goes to preparation. I guess if the complete story is not write since the beginning, but added thru updates, and older update conversations/logics never updated, it does not make sense.

On the other topics, I hate walktroughts, I only use them if is after my first gameplay (any type of game, if there is a second playthru...) in the case I just want to get everything/see all scenes (I'm a completionist).

Linear games that usually needed walkthrus/hints sometimes, existed, those are not named bad games, but are named old games, because on those times play length was more about difficulty. Now that a very difficult puzzle can be bypass by a fast google search, it doesn't make sense just make a linear game difficult per se.

Nowadays is just better instead of having only one difficult solution, you get various solutions, ones more rewarding than others. This is shit for devs of course. Increase developing time. But I won't say isn't fair either.

Personally I'm putting an optional lead system so player can get a hint about how to get the next step to a girl or a new girl, (just in case the player never realize that visiting regularly the market where all people on the zone goes to shop, well, who could thought that you can find people there). When a lot is to be done, and many places visited, hints, tactic books, are nice.

Make the game so complex (not complicated, complex), that a walktru for a first playtime is useless because there is so many different choices to make that is better to make all those decisions oneself and see where it leads. Allow locking up girls; If you have the choice to fuck the friend of your gf in a place where she could appear; She can appear, and bye bye the rest of scenes with your gf. The important thing is make clear that you are taking that dangerous decision (And not with a POPUP!), but that's tutorials for, show that your actions have consequences.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Branching logic is hell. I spent most of my dev time making sure all possible options of the player has taken into account everytime it matters, and that's a lot of coding logic. (Also, making sure all logic is ready to support changes of mind in the future)

I think many creators suffers from this "paint yourself into a corner" problem as time progress. Unless they had the story and everything planned out since the beginning. The use of storyboard and scripts, much in the way of how they do with tv series and movies, would be beneficial imho. Give the creator a roadmap to follow, and a easy way to backtrack if something need to be added or changed without break continuity and logic.

 

[Jack Redd Games]

I kind of hate the 'no consequences' kind of games, where I can be actively pursuing 3 women in the same house, fucking them and fooling around with them ... and yet somehow never get caught, and never have any issues.

That's a large part of why I decided to just do it myself ... make the game that I want to play. no end-game screen until the end of the game ... want to pursue multiple characters, go for it ... but they might find out, and if they do there might be some consequences ... and sometimes those might be good, girl a finds out you're sleeping with girl b as well .. .well maybe girl a helps you convince girl b to have a three way, but then girl c finds out cuz girl b is her friend, and she brags about this great 3 way she had, and girl c stops being into you ... but girl d was also there, so now girl d is texting you about a three way. Idk ... we'll see where it goes, I'm only on chapter one so far ... I just like the idea that different choices give different outcomes (beyond what the girl wore to your dinner date or whatever.)

 

[Joshua Tree]

I kind of hate the 'no consequences' kind of games, where I can be actively pursuing 3 women in the same house, fucking them and fooling around with them ... and yet somehow never get caught, and never have any issues.

That's a large part of why I decided to just do it myself ... make the game that I want to play. no end-game screen until the end of the game ... want to pursue multiple characters, go for it ... but they might find out, and if they do there might be some consequences ... and sometimes those might be good, girl a finds out you're sleeping with girl b as well .. .well maybe girl a helps you convince girl b to have a three way, but then girl c finds out cuz girl b is her friend, and she brags about this great 3 way she had, and girl c stops being into you ... but girl d was also there, so now girl d is texting you about a three way. Idk ... we'll see where it goes, I'm only on chapter one so far ... I just like the idea that different choices give different outcomes (beyond what the girl wore to your dinner date or whatever.)

Yeah lack of consequence can sometimes be a bummer. It's like the concept of jealousy doesn't exist. Be careful with players that will do the "what? I can't screw them all" approach.

 

[rb813]

That's a large part of why I decided to just do it myself ... make the game that I want to play. no end-game screen until the end of the game ... want to pursue multiple characters, go for it ... but they might find out, and if they do there might be some consequences ... and sometimes those might be good, girl a finds out you're sleeping with girl b as well .. .well maybe girl a helps you convince girl b to have a three way, but then girl c finds out cuz girl b is her friend, and she brags about this great 3 way she had, and girl c stops being into you ... but girl d was also there, so now girl d is texting you about a three way. Idk ... we'll see where it goes, I'm only on chapter one so far ... I just like the idea that different choices give different outcomes (beyond what the girl wore to your dinner date or whatever.)

But I bet it makes it a lot harder and more time-consuming to cover all the different branching pathways and possibilities, right? That's presumably why most devs don't bother (or dabble in very light ways, like Man of the House). It seems like having these more realistic options would increase the complexity exponentially.