- Oct 15, 2021
- 2,637
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They're not weird, they are idiots. They still haven't discovered alt, tab and printscreen keys on their keyboards.Why this game attracts so many of those weird guys with "screenshots" made on phone from laptop display?
- Thread starter Stone Eyes
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the game is about balance... so, i don't agree.
For who says that you can't fight at day one, i disagree to that too.
You can't rush to the boss at day one, but you can fight some enemies, to gain exp and order, unlocking the right edicts.
- Oct 16, 2020
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I'll almost feel guilty if i don't address at least some points in a 2-page debate for my benefit, so here goes:
Just some examples of vital information hidden: enemy stats, combat act order, actual numerical values for health, overblow protection breakpoints, basic damage estimates - like how the hell do i know the difference between slam and blunt attack's effectiveness?? Does cleave use different damage formula from slash? Does skewer have either higher or lower base chance to hit than thrust? Player is given nothing to make an informed decision about pretty much anything.
To say nothing of the extremely vague descriptions of edicts who express effects in arrows up or down, as opposed to anything you can clearly calculate or plan out. Just one example is "staff efficiency" - 0 explanation - its just there as a statistic. Riot chance arrow up/down? Well bully for me, that still does jack in helping me plan or calculate my odds. It resembles nothing close to how a proper risk management mechanic should be.
And do they say enemies level up for each riot that happens? I had to look at the code to learn that one. Thats just 1 example; most of the actually important stuff is only accessible if you scour the game files with a fine-tooth comb. All of this is on purpose. They even go the extra mile to design the game so that even if you simply defend yourself long enough, you will *still* turn out a massive whore. As i said before, they take the time to make fun of the player, saying that they are expected to repeatedly fail and game over, which goes way beyond an average metric of player antagonism.
And they know it. That is why their steam description of the game is so defensive: "the game is fairly unfair", my ass.
KP is not difficult in the traditional sense of the word. Elden ring and Sekiro are difficult. I've finished Sekiro's mortal journey boss rush gauntlet. I know "difficult".
The fights are insane, their special moves come from every which way, can 1/2-shot you easily, have an excessively aggressive AI, demand split-second reaction time and a posture break mechanic that makes it unfavorable to the player to stall for time and turtle.
The great difference here and there is that no matter how stacked the odds, everything is dependent entirely on the player. All the game mechanics are laid bare and nothing is hidden. Its up to you to negotiate the difficulty through your own skill, reflexes and judgement. That i why there are videos of some maniacs who kill the last boss in FromSoftware games at level 1, with 0 equipment or upgrades. Because insanely difficult as it, success is still reliant solely on the player. THAT is what you can call "fairly unfair".
Can KP be finished without edicts and accessories? No. It intentionally denies player agency in what goes on inside the game.
Which, again, seems to support my initial argument.
Moving on to the thug thing:
How the hell is a player just starting the game supposed to know which packs have the gameover thugs in them? And not just walk straight out of the first 2 corridors of the game into a fight he cant possibly hope to win. More to the point - the sprites of the enemies have nothing to do with the actual enemies inside the fight. You can approach that goblin sprite and see 0 goblins. You can approach that prisoner sprite and eat 2 thugs.
Yet another example of a design choice that is purposefully vague and antagonistic towards the player. No experimentation or breathing room for failure allowed - take your rape scene and either try again, crippled with passives, which sets you up to fail later, but not before realizing that you are an inescapable downward spiral, several hours in.(word for word what the devs' cat actually tells you)
Or start over.
More importantly, the game - in a very rare show of courtesy - actually *tells you* not to fight the bar when you first enter, so I wouldn't actually have grounds to say anything in the first place. The 2 thugs were located in the rooms above, using a basic prisoner sprite, because , well, fuck me.
Ok, I said how and why your magical, threading the razor's edge 19-29-39-49 Prisoner herobook, no losses, no halberd, armor or stat upgrades, all in one shot strains believability, and then i dropped it, but this one i will call you out on - you are full of it.
And im not talking about trying it until it eventually works out, no.
To fit with what you just implied, plus the espoused narrative from the herobook conversation, where you can calculate down to a hair's breadth all things RNG that may, could or will happen, you'll need to work beating the bar into an actual play you intend to finish. No re-tries, obv.
Your words: Prisoner. Day1. No accessories. Go for it, champ.
It isn't. There is a difference between the crowds that look for saves and gallery - those are the ones who don't want to deal with gameplay, just look at the smut - and those that ask to cheat and edit. The latter clearly intends to play the game and not just watch pretty pictures, but cant deal with the egregiously antagonistic approach the game takes towards players.Neriel said:
Lets not sugarcoat it here: its not "some" information that's hidden. you're heavily downplaying it. The "tutorial" npc cover mostly basic stuff, nothing of substance. The useful things they are vague about and in 2 instances they outright lie to you.Neriel said:
Just some examples of vital information hidden: enemy stats, combat act order, actual numerical values for health, overblow protection breakpoints, basic damage estimates - like how the hell do i know the difference between slam and blunt attack's effectiveness?? Does cleave use different damage formula from slash? Does skewer have either higher or lower base chance to hit than thrust? Player is given nothing to make an informed decision about pretty much anything.
To say nothing of the extremely vague descriptions of edicts who express effects in arrows up or down, as opposed to anything you can clearly calculate or plan out. Just one example is "staff efficiency" - 0 explanation - its just there as a statistic. Riot chance arrow up/down? Well bully for me, that still does jack in helping me plan or calculate my odds. It resembles nothing close to how a proper risk management mechanic should be.
And do they say enemies level up for each riot that happens? I had to look at the code to learn that one. Thats just 1 example; most of the actually important stuff is only accessible if you scour the game files with a fine-tooth comb. All of this is on purpose. They even go the extra mile to design the game so that even if you simply defend yourself long enough, you will *still* turn out a massive whore. As i said before, they take the time to make fun of the player, saying that they are expected to repeatedly fail and game over, which goes way beyond an average metric of player antagonism.
And they know it. That is why their steam description of the game is so defensive: "the game is fairly unfair", my ass.
I'm gonna borrow the Elden Ring simile here to make a point. I'm not critiquing KP's difficulty. I'm saying that the game is hard for all the wrong reasons, hence why i said "poor design choices". Its hardships are tied to purposefully vague, timewasting and convoluted gameplay. Withholding information, forcing you to stumble blind, 1 failure at a time. And even if you fail, it does nothing to teach you what could've been done better. It just says "take whatever titles you got and try again".
KP is not difficult in the traditional sense of the word. Elden ring and Sekiro are difficult. I've finished Sekiro's mortal journey boss rush gauntlet. I know "difficult".
The fights are insane, their special moves come from every which way, can 1/2-shot you easily, have an excessively aggressive AI, demand split-second reaction time and a posture break mechanic that makes it unfavorable to the player to stall for time and turtle.
The great difference here and there is that no matter how stacked the odds, everything is dependent entirely on the player. All the game mechanics are laid bare and nothing is hidden. Its up to you to negotiate the difficulty through your own skill, reflexes and judgement. That i why there are videos of some maniacs who kill the last boss in FromSoftware games at level 1, with 0 equipment or upgrades. Because insanely difficult as it, success is still reliant solely on the player. THAT is what you can call "fairly unfair".
Can KP be finished without edicts and accessories? No. It intentionally denies player agency in what goes on inside the game.
Untrue. How many games posted in 07.2019 can boast 1284 pages? I'll tell you - not nearly close to that many. My speculation is that people are interested and *want* to play this, but they end up cutting their losses when they realize that learning the game will require them to live in its .js files for a couple of days first, break down and ask for cheats and edits or just quit instead. Like this person:Neriel said:
Or like me: I didnt feel gratification after finishing my plays. I felt like i spent far too much researching, learning and playing this, than I should've. For what it is, the artificially inflated learning curve required to play the game, siphoned far more time than is remotely reasonable.
Which, again, seems to support my initial argument.
Moving on to the thug thing:
And how is a new player supposed to know that?? Ok, you have that one npc that squats in the yard that warns about thugs. Big whoop - that does nothing to tell you how to avoid them. A metric for good game design is the ability to finish it successfully on your first attempt, with no prior knowledge, if you pay attention, manage your risks and make use of the various mechanics, tools and information made available to you.Neriel said:
How the hell is a player just starting the game supposed to know which packs have the gameover thugs in them? And not just walk straight out of the first 2 corridors of the game into a fight he cant possibly hope to win. More to the point - the sprites of the enemies have nothing to do with the actual enemies inside the fight. You can approach that goblin sprite and see 0 goblins. You can approach that prisoner sprite and eat 2 thugs.
Yet another example of a design choice that is purposefully vague and antagonistic towards the player. No experimentation or breathing room for failure allowed - take your rape scene and either try again, crippled with passives, which sets you up to fail later, but not before realizing that you are an inescapable downward spiral, several hours in.(word for word what the devs' cat actually tells you)
Or start over.
I have absolutely no idea what this sentence meant.Neriel said:
I made no absolute statements. I described my experience in an entirely neutral summary. And with regards to "playing to full potential" at the risk of sounding conceited, I'm fairly certain finishing 2 prisoner challenge runs puts me in the upper percentile of people playing this, meaning i *do* have an inkling of what i am talking about, so you shouldnt dismiss my views so entirely.
I never fought the bar enemies in any of my games. Dont know why this became a narrative as i never once mentioned the bar.
More importantly, the game - in a very rare show of courtesy - actually *tells you* not to fight the bar when you first enter, so I wouldn't actually have grounds to say anything in the first place. The 2 thugs were located in the rooms above, using a basic prisoner sprite, because , well, fuck me.
The "mathematical impossibility" i addressed was winning the fight that included two thugs+prisoner as its 2/3 wave. Again, not the bar. I was all of 5-6 level at the time with 0 accessories, and as stated in my summary, it was the absence of +10 accessories that made it hard.
You can beat the bar fight 1st day on Prisoner and no accessories?
Ok, I said how and why your magical, threading the razor's edge 19-29-39-49 Prisoner herobook, no losses, no halberd, armor or stat upgrades, all in one shot strains believability, and then i dropped it, but this one i will call you out on - you are full of it.
And im not talking about trying it until it eventually works out, no.
To fit with what you just implied, plus the espoused narrative from the herobook conversation, where you can calculate down to a hair's breadth all things RNG that may, could or will happen, you'll need to work beating the bar into an actual play you intend to finish. No re-tries, obv.
Your words: Prisoner. Day1. No accessories. Go for it, champ.
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- May 8, 2017
- 391
- 644
interesting. do you know of a way to turn it off (outside of turning off the whole pregnancy module)?
Just use hammer with a small piece of wood. That should fix that hole behind the pillow.
- Jun 15, 2021
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- Jul 2, 2017
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it's a viable and easy-to-follow strategy for a new player. that said, if you have a better strategy for that stage of the game, I'm sure poisonbug would appreciate hearing it
if you want to criticize, fine. but at least offer an alternative.
- Oct 15, 2021
- 2,637
- 4,263
You wrote exactly my feelings for this game, better than I probably could, everything was spot-on.
Especially the part about hidden information. I feel like just about everything is hidden: enemy stats during battle(all stats, including numeric health), damage preview, turn order, vague edicts with up and down arrows, vague skill descriptions...
This game is full of guessing. Nothing is certain because almost everything is hidden.
Who's gonna act first in battle? Guess.
Who's gonna act next? Guess.
How much damage you can do? Guess.
How much health enemies have? Guess.
How much effects buff and debuff skills have? Guess.
How much crit chance I or enemies have? Guess.
Edicts with up and down arrows, how much of an effect they have? Guess.
Current riot chances of each level? Guess.
Why did I just unlocked a passive that has negative effects? Guess.
There's also hidden mechanics only found by looking at the game's files, when I found this for the first time I said a few insults loudly to devs. I still find this unbelievable. They expect me to play this game lots of times while hiding gameplay mechanics from me. I'm glad I didn't buy it. I've probably spent 1/3 of my gameplay time digging through it's files to discover hidden mechanics and change values of some questionable design choices. Fuck that shit, seriously.
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I am not gonna address all the other stuff, since I don't want this to drag on. I was talking in context of a NG+ run you did and the challenge run. Not a fresh save. But since I am in a good mood, here I did it even on a fresh save, first try. Now to be fair 2 of the Thugs I could not beat down quick enough before they masturbated themselves to death. I could retry until I get it but maybe you now understand why I said, that I could do it since in NG+ you have a lot of more titles and therefor are stronger.
So here again, now with NG+. And this time I beat them without anybody masturbating themselves to death.
So please go ahead how full I am. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it is impossible.
That is why I said viewpoint. All those things are for me just one thing in terms of, that the game doesn't give you Statistical Data. Sure if you look at it one by one, in mounts up. But for me this is one issue. Not 10 as an example. But I can repeat myself and seems like people ignore always certain parts of what I say, so whatever not gonna continue it. (also... enemy stats... really? I can understand a lot of things but if you mean, that you need to know exact values of all their Core Stats, then we are starting to talk about hand holding)
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The beautiful part here is that everything makes sense and is logical, but you need to fail first before realizing this. Most game mechanics are explained by the guards in the break room and the prisoners in the mess hall and courtyard. Core stats are explained really well when you look at the edicts that improve the growth rate. However, I agree that this is done very poorly because the information is spread over 4 or 5 edicts. All the other things that you mention are vague by design. You get an estimate what the effects of a certain edict will be, but never the exact numbers.
The only real issues for new players are the decreasing subsidies when your order is high (again, this is logical if you think about it) and not specializing in a certain stat (also logical, since you'd be mediocre at everything). And of course also the fact that autosave is on by default when you play on normal difficulty. That's the only thing I find truly annoying about this game, but you can make manual backups of your saves throughout the game.
Mind Training 1 and Healing Thoughts. If you don't buy the +10 Acc. Items, which makes sence in a Aspring Hero Challenge Run, you need to have staying power. So being able to replenish Energy is a must. Now ofc I would still not fight in the Bar. It only takes a bad roll with a red Thug to ruin your day.
- Oct 15, 2021
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You're assuming I'm new to the game, I didn't the complete the game AND I didn't read a few poorly written "explainations" that can be found by talking to npc's. That's lots of assumptions.
There's no excuse for the lack of information. If it is all by design, it is a bad design that deserves all the negativity it gets.
If I was making a turn based strategy game, the first thing I do would be creating an easy to read ui that has lots of information, especially turn order.
If I was making a game with lots of management options like this game has(edicts) I'd make sure they have exact descriptions of what they do in order to NOT leave the player playing the guessing game.
None of this is excusable, play any other turn based strategy game and see how they work. Go ahead and play xcom 2 for example. See how that game explains everything perfectly and has no bs hidden mechanics. Perfectly clear base management, perfectly clear combat. Nothing is hidden. If you lose it's your fault. If you lose in karryn's prison it's either because you didn't know what happened due to lack of information(example: stacked negative passives without knowing why) or game decided it is time for you to lose by spawning a rare powerful enemy. You rarely lose because it is your fault, which isn't fun at all.
Where to start...Ok for the most obvious, images can in no way show items equipped or game difficulty. For all i know, you slapped some accessories then removed them after the fight, and I have no way to know how many tries it took you. Or played secretary. But thats neither here nor there.
Moving on, I cant help notice you are missing 1100 starting gold. You wouldnt happen to have used them for edicts that will help with this *specific* fight would you...?
There is a reason i said
Because no one in their right mind, intending to play normally would start the game buying items and skills specifically directed for the entirely inconsequential and optional event of fighting in the bar. No, the smart thing anyone would do is shore up their financial situation with -expense and +income edicts.
And that's *not* what you did, is it?
The point was simulating an actual run, like mine, whose success - by all accounts - you severely hampered by opting for day 1 combat purchases. Its not a playthrough you ever intended to finish, which invalidates the whole premise of the experiment.
...you are just wanking to the sound of your keystrokes with this one. And again, you are completely missing the idea. Barfight can be done day 1. Just not even close to reliably enough, so that one would risk actually doing it in a run, you'd intend to finish.
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A sensible strategy and probably the only strategy that's close to being viable on day 1.
But I'm going to call bullshit too because you have 1 corruption. You only get corruption from buying accessories (which you can't because you don't have edict points left), from fighting the guards near the office (the chances of you having a nice rounded 900 gold in both screenshots after that fight are one in a billion) and certain edicts (which you can't buy because you have no points left). Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm pretty sure those are all the sources of corruption in the game.
Oh yeah, because the very obvious Corruption 1 doesn't clearly show, that I didn't buy a single Acc. Item. Or the -9 in Control doesn't show, that it is Prisoner Mode with the insane - in income I have. Now with the tries... look I really don't care. It is clear, that you will question everything anyway, even if evidence slaps you in the face and since I cannot prove that it was first try, think what you want.
My first day I always go for Edicts that improve my fighting ability. Normally that would be 2 Acc. Items with +10 Agi and +10 Dex to make fights easier. So same Story here. Just that I go for Mind Training 1 and Healing Thoughts. I don't worry too much about money, since the main income will happen anyways at the start from low Order and farming money on the First Floor, not because of Edicts.
Well maybe then you are doing something wrong? Or maybe, just maybe, there are more ways to play the game. Crazy thought. It is actually kinda funny, that somebody like you, comes at me like this. If you would have been here a few months people would have said to you, the things you are doing are impossible on Prisoner Mode since you need x Titles. You are actually good enough to beat Prisoner Mode without the help of NG+ but at the same time, somehow are very limited in your viewpoint. I never start with fixing my Income right away. I focus on making fights as easy as possible, to make farming on the First Floor easy. So yes, I was simulating how I would start a run like that. Ok I would not fight in the Bar, since it is still a risk that you don't have to take but that would be hard to do in an argument, that is about beating the Bar Day 1.
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You always start with 1 Corruption.
Its weird to see you acknowledge this, as the general impression i got was that you hold undisputed dominion over all things RNG.
That was the point of the exercise. The inconsequential barfight can be done day 1. Just not even remotely close to reliably enough, so that anyone would risk actually doing it in a serious prisoner run one intends to finish.
Those 2 sentences seem self-contradictory; how do you go about making fights easy without the bank to buy edicts or items?
Best long-term planning day1 start for any difficulty is firing the imperial guards, taking "self-paid equipment" edict then going to bed.
And that, ill fight anyone on.
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You called me out and I did it. Also I can repeat that feat. The only issue can be, if red Thugs appear as an example. So I can beat the Bar on Day 1. But just because I can, doesn't mean I would do it in a serious run, since it is a risk, that I will not take in a serious run. My original point was never "Hey I always go for Bar Day 1 in my runs!" I said
And that is what I did after you were calling me out on it. So can we just leave it be now. Talking about strategies is at least interesting but this is getting tiresome of getting called out on everything.
To repeat myself. I make the fights easy, by buying the +10 Acc. Items for Agi/Dex (or in the Challenge Run you did Mind Training 1 and Healing Thoughts). After that I don't need any Fighting Edicts anymore since I am strong enough to farm on the First Floor. Prisoners and Goblins are easy enemies on the First Floor. The only dangerous enemy are Thugs and they only spawn in specific rooms.
And look, you can play however you want but why would I start with those 2 Edicts and go to bed? I would just be wasting a Day that I can train Karryn. And the gain would be what? 200 Gold? Well let's say 400 since Day 2 is only 1 Edict. Do your runs depend so much on those extra 400 Gold? And I am actually curious, because I like talking about strats so this is not meant in any disrespectful way, before somebody calls me out again.