- Mar 12, 2020
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That's not the devs though, devs are not the ones that own this thread even, it's forum moderators that think it's probably WAY too much whining for whining sake on square meter, so they decided to delete it.
- Jan 2, 2020
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I know,thats why i said "some" and not dev but you didnt take your time to read it did you? As for whining there wasnt any,if by whining you mean questioning the dev's lack of progress in 4 years then yes. Censorship is bad no matter the context.
- Mar 12, 2020
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I mean, you do see how your sentence looks like? I just thought maybe you mistook mods' actions for developers... am i insane to think that....?
- Jan 2, 2020
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Well, your question consists of many parts being rolled into one, so i'll just go with it one step at a time.
Is it worth it? I don't know, ask each and every single person individually who supports something on any crowdfunding. I'm sure you will get dozens of different answers ranging from absolutely yes to absolutely no. The worth and value of their money is determined by them in the end.
Getting scammed. Without question we could name a lot of games and projects that were just flat out scams from the start or turned into one. But since we are in this thread, let's bring this a bit closer to home. This game has over 110 entries in the gallery section with 45+ completely unique scenes (eg. every single variant of the tent scenes counted as one, sketches, groping and artless interactions not included). There are full, finished games that are a lot smaller than this one.
If you look at it from this perspective, then supporting Hreinn gives you more content for your money than 5-6 small finished games combined.
I'll agree that it is especially important for story and character driven games like KoD to reach a satisfying ending, but if you are just looking at it from the perspective of raw content/money percentage then there are way worse investments than this one.
I've also seen a lot of people using the term "scam" basically for "not getting exactly what i want", even tho the correct term for that is literally just "risk". "Risk" also involves the chance of not getting anything for your investment.
The patreon model has a lot of problems, we could spend days discussing them all and i'm sure we would agree on almost every one of them too. But for now i'll just comment on one of your other posts too if you don't mind.
"If they are serious about making games then they should have no problem waiting for full realease price."
Passion doesn't pay rent and bills and doesn't buy food.
Hreinn's first game took 2 years to finish. Should Noxian Nights not exist simply because Nomo and Sierra weren't rich enough to go without getting paid for 2 years? I think i understand what you were suggesting there, but this statement as it stands is flat out wrong and there is no way around it.
- Jan 2, 2020
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As you've said,one thing at a time.
Fair enough
Might be a personal preference but if a game,no matter how small or big is abandoned (not that it doesnt reach a satisfying end) then its pointless and worthless,why? Because a story is about progression,the whole game is a massive hype up to a probably expected outcome,if you stop before you even get a glimpse of that then what is the point? Excuse the example but its like a prostitute giving a bj to a man and leaving him before he has a orgasm,does that man think his money was spent well? Then there's also other factors to take into consideration,they could leave sooner than close to the end and leave big holes in the story,they by taking the money of their patreons pledge to deliver something complete and lets not forget that abandoning a game is a huge middle finger to your patreons and community.
Im not sure if your talking generally or about me but i didnt use the word scam as in "i dont get what i want",its literrary a scam because some barely make any progress,to be more on point lets talking about KoD which didnt have a update in a while and from what their patreons say they have been milking this cow dead and if they keep this up + lack of communication then you might aswell consider it a scam because they are probably working on another game or something in real life,they are only making enough to keep the cash flowing. As one pointed out on the thread,the game was started in 2017 and they have failed to finish it,despite there being larger projects with fewer people who managed.
You misunderstood what i meant,if they are serious about making a game then they should already have a job and ONLY quit it if things get stable enough to live off games NOT start making games without a job,That is plain stupid and reckless.
You dont have to be rich to pay the bills and buy food,if they didnt have a stable situation then they should find a job and do games later as most people are doing.Lets face the truth,patreon is not a full time job and you cant depend on people to pay your food and rent without having something to show for,that is lazy and wrong and has no way around it.
I think there is a point to be made for philosophies like "enjoy it while it lasts" or "the journey is as important as the destination", but in general i agree with you on the first part. As you said, even if the money that has been sunk by a patron can be rationalised or justified, abandoned projects also tend to leave a lot of bitterness and resentment and that is not something people want for their money.
Your second paragraph is the mixed part now, and before anything else, i'll ask you to please clarify something to me, because there seems to be a bit of contradiction among the things you wrote.
I know i'm grabbing the first part out of context at this point, but in the same post you do argue that working on something else contributes to the classification as a scam and that not working on something else unless the patreon income is stable enough is stupid.
I mostly agree with the reasons you listed along with this quoted ones, except for the classification of milking and scam. Scamming would require a malicious intent and i've yet to see anyone who can back that claim up. The question of milking is trickier. As i see it, basically all their faults can be marked down as a lack of exoertise on a field. Hreinn has an artist, a programmer and a writer, but no manager and nobody who is good at honest PR. As the example shows, those are very important jobs even on this indie level. In the case of any project that works better, someone on the team can handle multiple roles. For example Sierra was not just the writer but also the PR behind the first game and the difference in communication is the most visible part of her absence.
You might want to consider a few things in this matter.
As i've mentioned, Noxian Nights took 2 years to be made and while i think that's an awesome game, it has a way smaller scope than KoD. Full linear story, no choices until the very end, small scale art without backgrounds, very few characters. These are not bad things, but KoD aimed to change these and while i also think that Hreinn bit more than they can chew, it can't be realistically expected to be finished in a similar time frame.
And the larger project with fewer people mentioned was Valheim. Just a quick look at their wiki page shows that this example is false. Valheim's development also started in 2017, but it had a bit of exisiting foundation as the head of the game has worked on his side project along with his regular job for a while. The team also had 5 experienced developers, not 2 and later 3 like Hreinn does (with only one programmer). Valheim is also a literal one in a million project. You can probably count on your hand the number of times a game by 5 devs sold 5 million copies.
- Jan 2, 2020
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"I know i'm grabbing the first part out of context at this point, but in the same post you do argue that working on something else contributes to the classification as a scam and that not working on something else unless the patreon income is stable enough is stupid"
You really managed to twist my words,i hope that ain;t intentional...anyway the point is that ONCE you start making a game you SHOULD have a stable financial situation which for most people means having a job,the " they are probably working on another game or something in real life" part is about something else,there i meant that they are already working on another game example: KoD and they promise their community that they are working on it but the truth is that they are keeping appearances so the cash keeps flowing while they are working in secret on something else,sound like a scam yet? If they officialy abandoned KoD and started another game or got a real job then it wouldn't be a problem,bc they wouldn;t be taking KoD money while not doing anything for it.
" I mostly agree with the reasons you listed along with this quoted ones, except for the classification of milking and scam. Scamming would require a malicious intent and i've yet to see anyone who can back that claim up. The question of milking is trickier. As i see it, basically all their faults can be marked down as a lack of exoertise on a field. Hreinn has an artist, a programmer and a writer, but no manager and nobody who is good at honest PR. As the example shows, those are very important jobs even on this indie level. In the case of any project that works better, someone on the team can handle multiple roles. For example Sierra was not just the writer but also the PR behind the first game and the difference in communication is the most visible part of her absence"
Scaming and milking are 2 faces of the same coin and thats a fact.
All that talk of PR is nonesense,you dont have to hold speeches,streams or conferences,they JUST have to talk to their patreons and community about what their doing and the status of the game,keeping people that PAY you in the dark is a huge Dick move.
Then they should rehire her if they cant even communicate with their community.
" And the larger project with fewer people mentioned was Valheim. Just a quick look at their wiki page shows that this example is false. Valheim's development also started in 2017, but it had a bit of exisiting foundation as the head of the game has worked on his side project along with his regular job for a while. The team also had 5 experienced developers, not 2 and later 3 like Hreinn does (with only one programmer). Valheim is also a literal one in a million project. You can probably count on your hand the number of times a game by 5 devs sold 5 million copies"
Point still stands that its been a long while since 2017 and its a valid point to make that they are moving slower than they should,why aren't they hiring more people? Why aren't they reducing the scope of the game if they bit more than they can chew? In those years sure we got a somewhat good story,a moronic combat system,little freedom after a point in the game (around mid game i think),some scenes are great and i hope they keep going for quality over quantity but most are average or below,sub and dom stats are kinda useless right now (very little difference between them as of now) and as some have pointed out which saddened me,is that the whole map will not be explorable and the universe will be barely unique.
I didn't twist anything. There was a contradiction, i asked you to clarify it, because there wouldn't be a point in turning a discussion into misguided flaming. Especially a page after the thread got cleaned up.
Anyway, that's right, getting paid to do something and using the money for something else would be really bad. So far there was no indication of anything like this happening here.
I tend to short it down to PR, because that's a term i got used to and my posts tend to be a bit long as you have seen. I just mean basic communication, keeping in touch with the audience, explaining things without overhyping and in general being transparent and honest.
But the thing is: good communication is difficult, and there are a lot of people who are naturally bad at it. Just take a look around the internet, you will find too many examples.
And rehiring Sierra is not going to happen by the info we got. I don't know you well enough yet to claim to know your oppinion about this, but just as a side note she started to work on her own solo game over a year before she quit Hreinn.
The updates are slower than they should be, no question about that.
Obviously i don't know why they aren't hiring more, but i have a few guesses. The first would be money. Right now the team gets something like 1000-1200 per person, which isn't a bad income in some countries, but if anyone is from a richer place, then this wouldn't even come close to being enough as a sole income already.
My second guess comes from my point that the team lacks good management. Right now they have 1 artist, 1 writer and 1 programmer and each of them do their own thing. Would hiring a second writer or programmer speed anything up? Without proper coordination it would only slow things down.
But these are just my guesses from the outside.
And from what we've seen so far, they did recude the scope already, multiple times in fact. Take a look at the slavery/freedom stat. When was the last time anything used that, and even the catgirl enslavement route has been essentially dropped.
Another example is the Dajrab route and as a side bonus, almost certainly the solo route too. Dajrab's route got exactly 2 unique scenes in 0.3 and 0.8. and as far as i remember solo got even less.
So the scope has been reduced, but as you have pointed out, reducing it too much might take away a lot of this game's uniqueness, so that's not a simple solution either.
- Jun 22, 2017
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- Aug 12, 2018
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- Jul 28, 2017
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When the developers decide that it's enough scam for now.
My opinion is that the update will be released at the end of this month it's in their style to release updates at the end of the month and they are already pulling with it decently so why not
Dont mind me guys just casually bleeding into may
- Oct 26, 2019
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Why you bleeding?Dont mind me guys just casually bleeding into may
- Jan 2, 2020
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Well then i guess we are done atleast on those topics,good that things didnt turn into a balkan war but to sum up my posts: this whole game and devs are a mess,can we agree on the fact that they shouln't get any money until they fix those problems? Or atleast some of them.I didn't twist anything. There was a contradiction, i asked you to clarify it, because there wouldn't be a point in turning a discussion into misguided flaming. Especially a page after the thread got cleaned up.
Anyway, that's right, getting paid to do something and using the money for something else would be really bad. So far there was no indication of anything like this happening here.
I tend to short it down to PR, because that's a term i got used to and my posts tend to be a bit long as you have seen. I just mean basic communication, keeping in touch with the audience, explaining things without overhyping and in general being transparent and honest.
But the thing is: good communication is difficult, and there are a lot of people who are naturally bad at it. Just take a look around the internet, you will find too many examples.
And rehiring Sierra is not going to happen by the info we got. I don't know you well enough yet to claim to know your oppinion about this, but just as a side note she started to work on her own solo game over a year before she quit Hreinn.
The updates are slower than they should be, no question about that.
Obviously i don't know why they aren't hiring more, but i have a few guesses. The first would be money. Right now the team gets something like 1000-1200 per person, which isn't a bad income in some countries, but if anyone is from a richer place, then this wouldn't even come close to being enough as a sole income already.
My second guess comes from my point that the team lacks good management. Right now they have 1 artist, 1 writer and 1 programmer and each of them do their own thing. Would hiring a second writer or programmer speed anything up? Without proper coordination it would only slow things down.
But these are just my guesses from the outside.
And from what we've seen so far, they did recude the scope already, multiple times in fact. Take a look at the slavery/freedom stat. When was the last time anything used that, and even the catgirl enslavement route has been essentially dropped.
Another example is the Dajrab route and as a side bonus, almost certainly the solo route too. Dajrab's route got exactly 2 unique scenes in 0.3 and 0.8. and as far as i remember solo got even less.
So the scope has been reduced, but as you have pointed out, reducing it too much might take away a lot of this game's uniqueness, so that's not a simple solution either.