Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.45.0] [Selebus]

[DeanNoriko]

Chika's delusion arc is objectively being dragged on for too long. I get the feeling that Sel has been struggling with fitting everything into the right timeline, her "waking up" has been long overdue and there were many opportunities before to introduce her downfall, in my opinion.

With Miku's latest scene being something that Sel admitted he planned since Chapter 1 that ended up in Chapter 4, apparently meant as a shocker, I feel like he is starting to get things slightly out of a logical order. That scene would indeed have a big impact, I believe, if it happened somewhere in Chatper 2 or 3. I don't remember who it was but someone (with a bigger noggin than me) mentioned that the first scene with Miku panicking was potentially planned as being the first sex scene and thus basically this event, but got changed during development. It would make sense, given that Stomachache happened (which I haven't watched yet myself but I understand the gist of what has happened, I guess, shut up don't judge me) in the meantime, which is kind of dwarfing the impact of Miku's scene now.

The same would apply to Maki's refusal to even consider Akira's involvement in Makoto's and now Miku's sex life. Maki may be a little weird, but she is smart, obviously she would have at least started to sniff out that Akira might be more than just friends with her two daughters, but there has been nothing so far that would indicate that, as far as I know.
Similarly Niki, who seems a little too oblivious to everything as well (though I play the good uncle route so I did not have the cum jar scene, but that means its not canon then ).

It makes me wonder whether Sel was deliberately stalling some of the developments to put them closer to the dark routes and have a more significant transition into what would become the switch from harem to dark.
Who knows what he has planned, but I could imagine it being a culmination of characters having their "eyes opened" and seeing the "true" Akira all in close timely proximity to each other, cascading into a series of events that exponentially develop into a huge pile of problemburgers for Akira that eventually initiate said dark route. Hence, from Sel's perspective, he didn't want some of those revelation to happen too early in the timeline, I guess?
Still, to me it seems a little off and illogical for most of the characters. Not a huge issue, but still a gripe I have with some of the current developments. And maybe it will make sense over time, who knows.

 

[LoveRedHairedGirl]

It makes me wonder whether Sel was deliberately stalling some of the developments to put them closer to the dark routes and have a more significant transition into what would become the switch from harem to dark.
Who knows what he has planned, but I could imagine it being a culmination of characters having their "eyes opened" and seeing the "true" Akira all in close timely proximity to each other, cascading into a series of events that exponentially develop into a huge pile of problemburgers for Akira that eventually initiate said dark route. Hence, from Sel's perspective, he didn't want some of those revelation to happen too early in the timeline, I guess?
Still, to me it seems a little off and illogical for most of the characters. Not a huge issue, but still a gripe I have with some of the current developments. And maybe it will make sense over time, who knows.

So, imagine the dark route is about everyone hating Akira because of his actions as a predator\rapist\man-slut\pedo\hebe\etc, xdd
But I can't imagine someone like Ayane would stop liking Sensei. Only if she will be hard resetted, but that would be a dick move from Selebus

 

[DeanNoriko]

So, imagine the dark route is about everyone hating Akira because of his actions as a predator\rapist\man-slut\pedo\hebe\etc, xdd
But I can't imagine someone like Ayane would stop liking Sensei. Only if she will be hard resetted, but that would be a dick move from Selebus

I think Ayane is not exclusive in that, I believe most characters would have a hard time truly hating Akira for being who he is currently. Look at Io, Yumi, Karin/Kirin, Chika, Noriko, etc. who would have very good reasons to cut ties with him for what he has done to them or what they learned about him, yet they still like him.

So I think that either it will take a lot more for them to hate him, or it will not be about hating him, but hating themselves.
There has been a lot of set-up done already about Akira ruining the girls. Not physically, but mentally. Io and Chika are the first ones that might crack, Io is already severally mentally unstable, Chika is about to go batshit crazy, other things might happen that will cause others to follow suit.

Look at Karin's latest event, on the surface it looks like it was about patching things up between them, ensuring that Akira is actually "a good guy" and Karin potentially trusting him again in the near future. But I fear it might be a bad omen, when he basically promises her it won't happen again, I can sense Pareidolia chuckling in the background, planning to make him abuse her (eventually) renewed trust and do even worse things to her, not only breaking Karin but Kirin along the way as well.

With Miku's latest development, I could imagine Akira making her become sexually traumatized, having her associate sex with the trauma of her parent's murders.

Even an Ayane could go through some severe trauma, most likely related to her being a mother, whether it be about an abortion, still birth, witnessing Akira fucking a shapeshifting Himawari who then reveals herself as Ayane's daughter etc. who knows what sick plans Sel has for those dark timelines.

Basically, the whole harem chapters are, in a certain sense, establishing everyone's weaknesses, mental issues and soft spots.
And I could imagine the dark route being about the gods wanting Akira to exploit those, causing the girls to go through severe trauma. (Why that would need to happen is beyond me tbh)
And the purity routes being Akira "fixing" them back up to complete the simulation, as Moonflare mentioned, potentially even changing the course of time by helping them overcome their insecurities and mental instabilities before anything can happen when resetting back to the beginning.

Just spit balling here, but I feel like this could be how it will develop, more or less.

 

[Tommykjohnson1990]

Anyone have an estrada777 green path save....I fucked up

 

[Vega Cifer]

Honestly even then Ayane has been through so much that it would take something very, very very specific to break her which I'm curious what that would even be. Even since way before since she first found out about Akiras "practices", she stuck by him. Him writing that list to her of who he does it with truly is something. Which honestly, makes me like her character a lot even if she served as one of the first to have an undying amount of affection for him. It always makes me feel she is one of the characters he would want to protect the most. If anything I can see it being reverse with something happening that could traumatize Akira again related to her. Or that stuff like about Himawari but...I dunno.

That being said, she is also kinda like a very big bundle of hidden emotions which she keeps in check to keep going so...just a matter of time till that cracks I guess. Though I can imagine it would be harder to "break" the "rooftop trio and any others after, given their understanding of things without including stuff like resets. Cause I mean...if you're part of that, you're probably gonna know Akira is fucking basically every high-school and non high-school girl lol.

I feel bad for the Miku and Akira situation cause well it was more "'innocent" in a sense yeah she was causing the least problems. Not sure it will cause major sexual trauma since she was aware it would hurt, and the way she spoke was less like traumatizing in a way she would freak out always, and more like her usual self. But I don't see them doing it for a while unless she takes some large dose of pain killers or some shit.

That Karin event also did not feel like patching things up to me ngl...just felt like a reminder Akira messed up with her and they will be different for some time. Not that I was really ever looking forward to Karin events any time in this game but feels bad man

 

[ProudHomophobic]

Based asf

 

[ProudHomophobic]

Anyone have an estrada777 green path save....I fucked up

Will check it . I fucked up with few things too so not sure

 

[Dc345]

Now that Sana's brother name was revealed to be "Shota" I can't help but imagine he looks like Kyoutaro from The Dangers In My Heart.

Spoiler: Shota Comparison

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[aramaug]

I think people are ascribing too much agency to Maya in her relationship with Sensei. She was seven years old, I'm going to need a whole mound of compelling direct evidence before I believe that she was the instigator or driver of a sexual relationship with an adult, and even then the first assumption should be that she was groomed into it. I think, if anything, the scarf story even points against it. It was Sensei that fingered her, all she did was confess her love (again, the love of a seven-year-old).

Which one? Noriko insists someone (assumed to be Maya) did something to/with Akira in the Old District after he ghosted her, and she saw him from the bus. One theory is that Maya made out with him in public or something, in an effort to make him leave the old district for good - but that's a very steep shot in the dark at this point (this happens during her first conversation with Akira about the past, in which he starts to shut down).

The other time Noriko mentions something related to this is directly to Maya, but that's more about the fact that she had sex with him while being a kid, putting him on a road of no return, and that she knows that Maya also knows she ruined him by doing it. Which is totally true. There'd be no person not sympathetic to Akira if not for the Maya situation - up until that point he was 100% just a victim of a horrible person, and there is a strong hint that this act was in part pragmatism from Maya's end to cut him off from everyone else as well (New Maya jokes about calling the police if he doesn't have sex with her, and at some point this might have been actual blackmail - if he didn't leave Noriko/Niki/the Old District).

I don't have an explanation for Noriko's story, but I'm not convinced that it's Maya that she saw. According to the pact they made as kids, Maya can't go to the old district, yet both of them seem to agree that it was Noriko who broke the pact in the present day. If Noriko saw Maya in the old district, surely she would bring that up.

Spoiler

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As a side note, I still don't understand what Noriko was supposed to get out of that pact. Even if she was a kid and didn't understand the implications, she must have agreed to it for a reason.

Spoiler

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I don't think Maya kissing him in public makes much sense. It's not like the old and new districts are completely separate worlds. If he's at risk of being recognized and unmasked in the old district, that risk would still exist elsewhere in the city even if it's less.

New Maya mentioning the police came across to me as a sex kink thing, since Sensei gets off on how taboo his relationships are. I don't think there was any indication that it was an actual threat or that she had threatened it before.

Noriko does imply that Maya is the one who fucked Sensei up for good:

Spoiler

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Mentioned it before:

But it does seem like within months of Sekai's death, Wizard Maya had Sensei wrapped around her finger, and Niki was out of the picture.

As this thread's resident Noriko hater, I feel obligated to push back on some of this. To start with, Noriko is not an objective source when it comes to Maya. Her feelings towards her are all kinds of confused, but they include jealousy and bearing a grudge over the past.

Spoiler

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More importantly, there's a lot of stuff that Noriko doesn't know about. She doesn't know about Sensei's relationship with Sekai, which was probably a big impetus for why he had to leave the old district. She doesn't know anything about what happened between when he left and when she joined the class. She sees that he's even more broken now than she remembers, so she blames Maya for that, but up until whatever triggered the resets, it seems like he had actually improved significantly outside of having an underage girlfriend.

In context, what she actually blames Maya for is not fixing him, but she doesn't know that the resets made that impossible.

Spoiler

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Maya isn't responsible for Sensei ghosting Niki, that happened immediately after the accident when he holed up in his house with Ami. After he started improving and leaving the house, he still chose to avoid her. Even Noriko doesn't blame Maya for him abandoning them the first time.

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It's reasonable to argue that Sensei would have eventually let Niki back into his life if Maya didn't push him away, but there isn't any evidence that he was considering it. I think it's telling that Sensei never talked about the Nakayamas with Ami.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that Maya was guilty of was pushing Sensei to leave Noriko and the old district behind. Even then, she thinks she had a good reason for it, though I'm sure her selfishness and jealousy played a large part.

Spoiler

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It's also worth pointing out that we still have no idea why Maya hates Noriko so much, and Noriko clearly doesn't know either since she thinks it's for loving Sensei, which she realizes makes no sense.

Spoiler

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I can't see Maya Prime maintaining this hatred for thousands of years unless either: 1. Noriko has been showing up during resets (and Maya lied about it). or 2. Maya blames her for some aspect of Sensei's present condition.

Edit: Last possible reason is half tinfoil, but it could be that she hates Maya because they're both pursuing different goals reset wise. They're the top narrator guesses after Himawari, and her hatred could be a "present" hate, born during the resets, and for supernatural reasons - rather than the hate of the memory of a dead person looking over someone that wasn't even part of Akira's life when she was alive.

I'd actually argue that this is the only reason that we have direct evidence for. Sekai and Pareidolia view Sensei being broken as his true self, and they want him to return to that and become the Collector. Maya Prime was pushing him in the opposite direction, trying to get him to care about the girls. When Pareidolia talks about Maya grooming Sensei, he's referring to what she's done during the resets, not to their sexual relationship.

Spoiler

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[DeSkel15]

I think people are ascribing too much agency to Maya in her relationship with Sensei. She was seven years old, I'm going to need a whole mound of compelling direct evidence before I believe that she was the instigator or driver of a sexual relationship with an adult, and even then the first assumption should be that she was groomed into it. I think, if anything, the scarf story even points against it. It was Sensei that fingered her, all she did was confess her love (again, the love of a seven-year-old).

I don't have an explanation for Noriko's story, but I'm not convinced that it's Maya that she saw. According to the pact they made as kids, Maya can't go to the old district, yet both of them seem to agree that it was Noriko who broke the pact in the present day. If Noriko saw Maya in the old district, surely she would bring that up.

Spoiler

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As a side note, I still don't understand what Noriko was supposed to get out of that pact. Even if she was a kid and didn't understand the implications, she must have agreed to it for a reason.

Spoiler

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I don't think Maya kissing him in public makes much sense. It's not like the old and new districts are completely separate worlds. If he's at risk of being recognized and unmasked in the old district, that risk would still exist elsewhere in the city even if it's less.

New Maya mentioning the police came across to me as a sex kink thing, since Sensei gets off on how taboo his relationships are. I don't think there was any indication that it was an actual threat or that she had threatened it before.

As this thread's resident Noriko hater, I feel obligated to push back on some of this. To start with, Noriko is not an objective source when it comes to Maya. Her feelings towards her are all kinds of confused, but they include jealousy and bearing a grudge over the past.

Spoiler

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More importantly, there's a lot of stuff that Noriko doesn't know about. She doesn't know about Sensei's relationship with Sekai, which was probably a big impetus for why he had to leave the old district. She doesn't know anything about what happened between when he left and when she joined the class. She sees that he's even more broken now than she remembers, so she blames Maya for that, but up until whatever triggered the resets, it seems like he had actually improved significantly outside of having an underage girlfriend.

In context, what she actually blames Maya for is not fixing him, but she doesn't know that the resets made that impossible.

Spoiler

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Maya isn't responsible for Sensei ghosting Niki, that happened immediately after the accident when he holed up in his house with Ami. After he started improving and leaving the house, he still chose to avoid her. Even Noriko doesn't blame Maya for him abandoning them the first time.

Spoiler

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It's reasonable to argue that Sensei would have eventually let Niki back into his life if Maya didn't push him away, but there isn't any evidence that he was considering it. I think it's telling that Sensei never talked about the Nakayamas with Ami.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that Maya was guilty of was pushing Sensei to leave Noriko and the old district behind. Even then, she thinks she had a good reason for it, though I'm sure her selfishness and jealousy played a large part.

Spoiler

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It's also worth pointing out that we still have no idea why Maya hates Noriko so much, and Noriko clearly doesn't know either since she thinks it's for loving Sensei, which she realizes makes no sense.

Spoiler

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I can't see Maya Prime maintaining this hatred for thousands of years unless either: 1. Noriko has been showing up during resets (and Maya lied about it). or 2. Maya blames her for some aspect of Sensei's present condition.

I'd actually argue that this is the only reason that we have direct evidence for. Sekai and Pareidolia view Sensei being broken as his true self, and they want him to return to that and become the Collector. Maya Prime was pushing him in the opposite direction, trying to get him to care about the girls. When Pareidolia talks about Maya grooming Sensei, he's referring to what she's done during the resets, not to their sexual relationship.

Spoiler

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Sensei likely wasn't allowed to bring up the Nakayamas. Maya seemed to make it part of their relationship, at least when it came to Niki:

Spoiler

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The Nakayamas plus Sekai seemed to be the only three people Maya was jealous of:

Spoiler

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And were likely treated as taboo to even think about within their relationship since the start.

If Sensei's selective "amnesia" wasn't already a thing by that time, he simply wasn't allowed to mention the Nakayamas and definitely wouldn't be allowed to make them part of Ami's life.

Noriko also specifically blames Maya for making Sensei think he's all alone:

Spoiler

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And we know that even Maya Prime, after possibly millions of years from her perspective, was still hiding Noriko from him.

When it comes to Noriko and Maya, it really does just seem to come down to Maya's jealousy and obsessiveness. Even if she's trying to justify it. (Although, I have wondered if Maya thought that Noriko was the wizard he truly wanted, but held himself back due to "love" and fear. Him seeing Tsukasa as wizard Noriko is...interesting. I don't think Maya would have liked being called "Noriko" when they were messing around, or at all.)

Also keep in mind that Noriko, even after everything, still cares about Maya:

Spoiler

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She's not aware of everything, but it's not like she's trying to slander Maya, when she's connecting the dots.

There's definitely more to the Maya/Niki stuff though, as Niki seemed to recognize Maya:

Spoiler

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But we probably won't know what, until Maya finds out that she's moving in and the real drama starts. Still probably just comes down to jealousy, and Maya Prime was notably the most jealous of Niki according to the Chapter 3 'Untitled' Main Event.

Don't get me wrong though. Even if Maya instigated this relationship, it is still Sensei who's to blame for it's existence and it being sexual. His weakness does not and will not excuse his actions as far as I'm concerned.
-----

As for who Noriko saw with Sensei in the Old District: I'm thinking it may have been Ami on a day they went to visit Sekai's grave or her old house in the Old District. Something along those lines.

It kind of has to be either Ami or Maya, and it definitely doesn't fit Maya, after the pact was revealed, but something made him feel something he didn't like remembering based off him hallucinating.

Edit: Also Pareidolia is bringing up Sekai (probably), Maya, and Sensei's Parents in that Chapter 4 'The Collector' Main Event. It only referring to what happened in the Resets seems unlikely.

 

[Bingoogus]

When it comes to Noriko and Maya, it really does just seem to come down to Maya's jealousy and obsessiveness. Even if she's trying to justify it. (Although, I have wondered if Maya thought that Noriko was the wizard he truly wanted, but held himself back due to "love" and fear. Him seeing Tsukasa as wizard Noriko is...interesting. I don't think Maya would have liked being called "Noriko" when they were messing around, or at all.)

I was pretty sure i'd made this observation in the past and wanted to bring it up again but being reluctant to repeat myself i was keen to wait for someone else to get close to it to justify my rementioning it, but you did me one better and just stated it outright . It did stand out to me how their roles seemed reversed, just something about it was... off.

 

[barglenarglezous]

I'm honestly of a mind to say that whenever any given character is speaking about another character's past or motives, to assume the speaker is unreliable. Bias and agendas are abundant here, and just because a character says something (even when well-intentioned) doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking about. Especially where the memory of children is involved.

 

[Moonflare]

I'm honestly of a mind to say that whenever any given character is speaking about another character's past or motives, to assume the speaker is unreliable. Bias and agendas are abundant here, and just because a character says something (even when well-intentioned) doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking about. Especially where the memory of children is involved.

I agree to an extent, but there is a danger in this sort of story where so much is already unreliable to make your reader view things people straight up reveal as unreliable as well. One might end up falling into a sort of solipsism of meaning where you can only trust what you see, but since Akira isn't realiable either then there's no meaning to be found anywhere.

I'd go with assuming people having an agenda and biases to what they say, rather than straight up lying (unless it's hinted that they are). For instance, I don't think Noriko lied once about what she said about the past/Maya. Whereas I know for sure Maya lied a lot, and might have hid even more information.

There is a final piece to this in that they're not real people. Selebus chose to tell his story through unreliable means, but on the same token, all characters are mediums to one single narrator which is himself - so all of them know what they're talking about when he wishes them to know what they're talking about - in order to convey to the reader another fragment of the lore when it's appropriate. I personally haven't found much misinformation that was conveyed through characters about other characters that I recall (not ones that weren't apparent they're just guesses from the start at least).

 

[DeSkel15]

I'm honestly of a mind to say that whenever any given character is speaking about another character's past or motives, to assume the speaker is unreliable. Bias and agendas are abundant here, and just because a character says something (even when well-intentioned) doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking about. Especially where the memory of children is involved.

The way I see it is that whenever any given character or narrator is speaking about anyone's past or motives, including their own, it's inherently unreliable by itself.

Context is what matters most, especially in a fictional setting where memories, perceptions, personalities, and time are all seemingly altered as a part of the story, and certain characters are known for lying, hiding things, or simply being wrong, anyway.

Everything seems unreliable, so the main focus should be on what seems the least unreliable.

Spoiler

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[Moonflare]

Narrator - "Is there anyone you can trust at all?"

Spoiler: Yes. And she's dressed in blue.

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[DeSkel15]

Spoiler: Yes. And she's dressed in blue.

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The irony of Tsuneyo saying this on Himawari's bday in an event named after her bday, before we even knew it was her bday, is not lost on me:

Spoiler

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For now, Himawari is in the suspicious camp for me, and after the Chapter 3 'All For You' Main Event, so is everyone "dressed in blue". Looking at you, Nao-chan:

Spoiler

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Just kidding, I trust you completely:

Spoiler

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...maybe...

 

[joryuken]

SO my replaying of lil will need to start either way, my save is beyond fucked,another 450 hours of my time playing this game, here I come OTL

 

[Dc345]

Spoiler: Dark Route

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[Moonflare]

Spoiler: Dark Route

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So much for DeSkel's most awaited route Ami kills everyone including the gods, Akira is then left unimpeded to walk into the control room with a big reset red button "you know what, I think I'm going to give everyone their perfect life after my daughter killed them in such a horrible fashion..." - cue in purity routes with a happy song.

This game "Sayonara O Oshiete" (Teach Me How To Say Farewell) was posted on f95 today: https://f95zone.to/threads/teach-me-goodbye-comment-te-dire-adieu-final-craftwork.205091/

Also, what the heck, this is horrifying. Someone already wrote DeSkel's dark route for him, as if I needed Selebus to get even more pretentious, there's even french quotes in the cover. Although I'd change it to comment te dire que enough is enough [...] I'm seriously shaken from the screenshots.

 

[DeSkel15]

Spoiler: Dark Route

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Lessons in Love's Dark Route:

Spoiler

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