Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.48.0] [Selebus]

[Moonflare]

Right now i'm still on page 2216 due to circumstances, but some might have realised because of likes for a week old post.

I've already seen enough posts where i'd like to add but might not, because i'll have forgotten by reaching 2239 while writing this.

What i do want to write about is something that became way more apparent with the last update, and that is how we perceive certain characters after a certain update. And this time it was Sekai, and i saw that other people already mentioned it.

Together with Lil, i want to break this down into three sections, because i also want to mention other media that fit into that topic.
Hopefully i can make those as short as possible.

Spoiler: LiL

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Spoiler: Redo Of Healer

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Spoiler: The MAXX

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So, where do i want to get with these?
In short i think Sel wants to get his audience to think about morals and ethics about certain, yet obvious topics.

Is a villain still a villain if they get a sad background that explains their wrongdoings, because they lived through the same or similar experience?

What bugs me though is the 4th wall breaking, and a lingerering felling of Sel trying to shove his audience opinions into whatever direction.

This is an interesting discussion, but I don't feel the same way about it as it relates to LiL.

Osako was never really a villain and neither was Otoha, for all that I dislike her. Osako was just an adult behaving as, well, her age - she's a young adult amd clearly hasn't found herself, as most her age haven't. She was dick to Akira but that was hardly done out of malice, and more that she was a dumbass.

Nodoka was a villain and it certainly makes her a sort of extreme reverse Makoto in retrospect. She's trying to save everyone and honestly, if I was in her shoes I would care less about people's feelings as well. Let's care about that after they're free. However, Nodoka's situation is so unique in its fiction that it's hard to compare to real life in any way.

The real actual villain of the story would be Sekai, if anything, and the easiest to apply your pov, however, all Kyoto did was reveal a possible real Sekai for which we had no context so far. I don't feel like it's trying to justify her actions so much as presenting the reader with the realisation that real life is complex.

NAO (the xeonon) had said previously that both Akira and Sekai loved eachother for real. However twisted that might have been to others, it was real for them. Is that so far from Maya and Akira's relationship that most of us came to love? yes. Yes, it is. But both relationships have similarities, and I think what's Selebus is trying to portray here is that more often than not things can be uncomfortably complicated.

An avatar of corruption that toys with her underage prey and calls that love is certainly easier to stomach (as a villain) than a miserable girl tormented by voices, abused since childhood, that goes on to be abused by her husband, and finally finds solace in providing her version of "pure" love to a child, giving Akira what perhaps she wished someone would have given unto her, and truly wishing and willing to start over by his side.

That's just one possible reading. And I think that if there is one thing Selebus has been hammering on since the start was that things are complicated. Isn't that the whole point of Akira as a character in the first place? Therefore all characters should eventually be shown as complicated. Does that complication redeem them? I think, if anything, Selebus has been strongly positioned on the camp of "no, it does not". After all, he's constantly calling Akira out on it.

 

[DeanNoriko]

This fits very well with the theory that the entire reset is taking place in his final moments of life, either mid-flight from jumping, or just generally dying. There is also an interesting notion that Akira is able to grasp the truth of the resets by dying, well, what does that mean? Could it be a sort of bluejay revelation, or is it something deeper? That by dying he's about to be placed back in the room of the clocks and given all his authority back until resetting everything again?

Very good post, as per usual, and an excellent point.

I always felt that the theory that everything that is happening in this game is just Akira's brain trying to process various jumbled up memories, what-if scenarios, dreams and traumas within basically milliseconds, is almost too obvious or convenient, given a lot of the scenes from just the beginning of the game. But you're right that this whole scene fits that a lot.

The vibe I personally got from the "whispers" was that they could be of his loved ones that stand at his hospital bed as he is fighting for his life after his suicide attempt - it's a commonly used trope at least. "Believe in God", or something along that line (Akira is in a coma and would only hear very faint voices, if anything, after all), could easily be said by a relative (to someone else) who has HOPE that he will still make it, as faith is often the last resort for many people in such scenarios.
Akira, becoming "a better man" in his mind, trying to come to terms with the fact that he was a twisted man and feels immense regret, right as the great darkness is enveloping him (i.e. he loses his fight and dies in real life -> game over screen).

It would still leave a bitter taste in my mouth though, if a majority of the plot and the mysteries could be explained simply by "LEL Akira was just a suicidal pedo and he just imagined all the girls to fit his tastes and make him love him, but still made them flawed so that he wouldn't feel bad about abusing them (Harem route), but eventually feels guilty about being a bad man (he punishes himself = dark route) before he eventually "becomes a better man" by helping "them" overcome "their" traumas (that he was mostly projecting onto them) so that he has some closure in the end (purity routes), right before he dies ".

It would feel kind of lazy if it were to go this general direction, there's too many nuances and seemingly real and meaningful developments and relationships for it to all just be fabricated within a dying brain in essentially nanoseconds.

Then again, this is pretty much what happened to LOST (the TV series about the stranded people on the island), the end was very anti-climactic and felt like it destroyed a lot of the mystery and worldbuilding that has been established in previous seasons, for it to just end up being

Spoiler: Spoiler in case you haven't watched it and somehow still want to

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So anyway, Selly is a twisted and mean little fucker, but I have faith in him being able to write a good enough plot for it to be more meaningful and substantial than that. In fact, I would be bitterly disappointed if my wrinkle-free lizard brain would be able to come up with theories that come anywhere close to what is going on in the end.

 

[Riolol]

This is an interesting discussion, but I don't feel the same way about it as it relates to LiL.

Osako was never really a villain and neither was Otoha, for all that I dislike her. Osako was just an adult behaving as, well, her age - she's a young adult amd clearly hasn't found herself, as most her age haven't. She was dick to Akira but that was hardly done out of malice, and more that she was a dumbass.

Nodoka was a villain and it certainly makes her a sort of extreme reverse Makoto in retrospect. She's trying to save everyone and honestly, if I was in her shoes I would care less about people's feelings as well. Let's care about that after they're free. However, Nodoka's situation is so unique in its fiction that it's hard to compare to real life in any way.

The real actual villain of the story would be Sekai, if anything, and the easiest to apply your pov, however, all Kyoto did was reveal a possible real Sekai for which we had no context so far. I don't feel like it's trying to justify her actions so much as presenting the reader with the realisation that real life is complex.

NAO (the xeonon) had said previously that both Akira and Sekai loved eachother for real. However twisted that might have been to others, it was real for them. Is that so far from Maya and Akira's relationship that most of us came to love? yes. Yes, it is. But both relationships have similarities, and I think what's Selebus is trying to portray here is that more often than not things can be uncomfortably complicated.

An avatar of corruption that toys with her underage prey and calls that love is certainly easier to stomach (as a villain) than a miserable girl tormented by voices, abused since childhood, that goes on to be abused by her husband, and finally finds solace in providing her version of "pure" love to a child, giving Akira what perhaps she wished someone would have given unto her, and truly wishing and willing to start over by his side.

That's just one possible reading. And I think that if there is one thing Selebus has been hammering on since the start was that things are complicated. Isn't that the whole point of Akira as a character in the first place? Therefore all characters should eventually be shown as complicated. Does that complication redeem them? I think, if anything, Selebus has been strongly positioned on the camp of "no, it does not". After all, he's constantly calling Akira out on it.

I think if the "real" Sekai was any better than the Sekai we have come to know then Wakana would not be so worried about Ami reading her poetry and emulating her world view.

 

[Detective Dc345]

Maybe now Rin will have sex with Sensei since he basically stuck his dick in all her crushes.(with the exception of Otoha)

 

[Moonflare]

Maybe now Rin will have sex with Sensei since he basically stuck his dick in all her crushes.(with the exception of Otoha)

Well, if LiL taught me anything is that you should always pick eldritch abomination as a wingman.

Spoiler: this, rin, is a true homie

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Ron can't even keep her promise of nudes smh

 

[Apollo259]

I think I'm going to assume Nozomu is Nodoka and Shiori's father going forward, until we get better information. I think we can confidently exclude Yuu as an option given their age. It could be Akira I guess But that feels less likely too me at this point. Also thinking of the age differences of Yuu's children and Akira plus what Nodoka said about having a son and fucking the son, plus Sekai being cut off when about to say something about Nodoka I'm also starting to think the wild Nozomu is Akira's Father theory could be true.

Spoiler: Nodoka, Sekai

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Which means we have a stupid insane family tree that includes such ridiculous statements as Sekai being Akira's 1/4? sister / step mum / half? Aunt. Nozomu being his 3/4? Brother Father. Saki being his Mother / Grandmother. Nodoka being his 1/4? sister / 1/4? nice? Ami as his sister / daughter / nice / cousin? (I don't even what to think of the fractions. But I guess its a good thing she loves incest.)

(I'm so confused about what fraction siblings Akira and Nozomu even are in this scenario. Same mother but different father, but the different father is half the father and half the mother but the mother he is half of is the same mother? I cant comprehend this mess.)

But anyway that's not even the main thing I was trying to bring up. The thing I wanted to say was regarding the Purple shirt twins mentioned in "Infinity House". Who do you think they are? I'm going to tentatively go with Nodoka and Shiori And Also am assuming that they are the children either Nozomu or Akira and Kyoko (She is locked in for obvious reasons). But I'm open to better ideas if anyone has one. (Maybe someone already said this and I missed it as well?)

Spoiler: Infinity House

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[LoveRedHairedGirl]

Fuck my dreams. In my dream I was in somewhat like reset. I locked myself in sauna together with Ami. We locked all doors and windows there. But then the curtains start falling. I try to fix them, but then Ami decided to run outside to find something to fix it. She opens the door and runs... Fucking Ami! She ruined the place cuz since that moment, no matter how fast I locked the door, entities entered...
Continuation: the doors and windows start opening by themselves, my phone starts dying by using all it's power to yell some stupid songs 24/7. The other rooms in sauna were destroyed. So eventually I runaway from sauna all naked, completely out of mind...

 

[aramaug]

I've written up some thoughts on The Orb. For best ambience, please listen to theholelol.mp3 on loop while reading this post.
View attachment theholelol.mp3
Someone already pointed out the orb appears in Ayane's picture from the fifth reset. It also shows up in "The End of the Tour" when Sensei is blocking out the accident, and he sees a sakura tree inside of it.

Spoiler

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In Sensei Quest, Meowri creates the orb after a car crash. When you put these together, it seems likely to me that the orb was created when Sekai was killed in the accident. My guess is it's the manifestation of Akira's feelings of grief and guilt, and desire to punish himself for not preventing her death by leaving with her - which is consistent with Meowri calling it the dark entity inside of him.

In the fifth reset photo, the orb is in the place where the moon should be. During the reset itself, there's a red moon and Kaori is on the roof wearing Sekai's dress (identified by the nail polish).

Spoiler

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So the orb is a black void where a moon should be - probably the moon that Ami wants to use her wish to bring back. We've theorized before that moon is the real Sekai, which seems consistent with the other appearances of the orb.

Spoiler: Il Cervo

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SeKaori says that bringing the moon back would require rewriting history, i.e. preventing the accident or at least Sekai's death.

Spoiler

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As chronox pointed out, the orb's name changes to GOD when it's consuming Sensei.

Spoiler

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It's a GOD that is composed of four parts and came into being after a car accident. The narration from "First Contact" also talks about the USER gods being created by a (possibly metaphorical) car crash.

Spoiler

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It's also likely that it has something to do with the thing that sings in its sleep, which is missing the orb meant to guide it and has something to do with a god that encompasses everything. This is from an event in the same update as "First Contact" and they both use itsingsinitssleep.mp3

Spoiler: All For You

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Later we're told it's the middle of the four-sided cross, i.e. it encompasses all four gods.

Spoiler: Goodnight Moon

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What I'm unclear on is whether the orb is itself that thing that sings in its sleep - in which case the orb that's supposed to guide it is the missing moon - or if this means that the returned orb is going to wake some other sleeping entity.

John might have warned about the orb in "Sasom i en Spegel". He talks of a dead god that will return after the death of someone of equal value, which is very similar to how SeKaori describes the return of the moon.

Spoiler

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Just before that John warns of an entity coming in its "purest form" with bloody tendrils. The orb attacks Sensei with tendrils.

Spoiler

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This might also be related to the mighty sky tendrils that Yasu talked about when Makoto's dad died.

Spoiler

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Yasu was prewarned of that event by hearing the whispers of the world itself, something she's heard on many occasions. Sensei hears whispers coming from the orb.

Spoiler

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The four orbs of power that make up the orb are plant, worm, fist, and red. These could be random, but if we try to match them to the trinity: in Life of Prizes a worm crawls out of the Lust Eater's book (USER1), Wires is regularly connected to growing plants (and they're both green), and Pareidolia's color is red. So fist might represent USER4 - I can't think of any implications there, but maybe someone else can come up with something.

I've got some more thoughts on the orb coming in a tinfoil theory I'm working on, so stay tuned.

 

[SlidingSubject]

So fist might represent USER4 - I can't think of any implications there, but maybe someone else can come up with something.

So, going out on a limb here, maybe it represents Nozomu abusing Sekai.

 

[Antosha]

I think if the "real" Sekai was any better than the Sekai we have come to know then Wakana would not be so worried about Ami reading her poetry and emulating her world view.

The poetry we've read gives voice to a deeply f#)@ed up mind. If a kid I was teaching seemed to be swimming in that kind of crazy, I'd be deeply worried about too.

There's goth-y, Wakana dark, staring into the abyss, and then there's crazy Sekai dark -- where the abyss is staring back at you.

The Sekai who wrote the poems -- who we've seen in the flashback scenes (including Kyoto) -- is deeply warped. Like Akira (and Yasu, and Io, and...), she's a victim of profound abuse. That doesn't stop her from having positive aspects and impulses; for example, she wants to leave her abusive husband and take her (underage) lover and (possibly) their child with her to safety -- but then stays when Akira says no. The ghost!Sekai who haunts Akira -- and who appeared to/screwed with Tsuneyo in the last update -- is a different creature, I think: a distilled aspect of the venal, destructive side of Sekai conjured up in the minds of Akira and (I think) Ami. Definitely, that femdom succubus was also part of the woman, as we can see in her very f)(#@ed up poetry. But it wasn't the whole person, which is what Kyoto reminded us.

As Moonflare pointed out, even the most monstrous characters in this game have positive aspects. That's true of Nodoka, for sure; it's definitely true of Ami, and it's true of her mother. It doesn't make them good or nice. But it makes it harder to ignore them.

Of course, even the characters who seemed the most good at the start have their own demons. Chika seemed like a sweetheart for the first three chapters. Sana, who makes you want to wrap her up and shelter her from all harm, has some very, very dark sh@t going on. Even Futaba and Karen...

There really don't seem to be any moral absolutes in LiL-land. So while I really appreciate Sensei seeming to try to do the right thing/least harm more often in Ch. 4, I'm not sure that center will hold.

ETA: It occurs to me that the one complete monster in the game so far is Nozumo -- whom we've never met. Which probably means that, when we finally do meet him, he'll be a lot more complex than he currently seems. Hmm. (Also, am I the only one who thinks "Nostromo" when his name comes up? No? Bueller?)

 

[Meskal1ne]

ETA: It occurs to me that the one complete monster in the game so far is Nozumo -- whom we've never met.

Nozomu = hope, and we met him couple of times.

Funny how one "happy scene" (which are usually monstrously deceptive and ambiguous) makes a lot of people rethink and relate to Sekai differently. No matter how much of a bastard Nozomu was - this will not change the fact that the entire Arakawa (excluding Hima i guess) family is mentally ill, and Sekai with her grooming and abusing of kid, in my opinion, is the darkest one.

 

[DeSkel15]

Nozomu = hope, and we met him couple of times.

Funny how one "happy scene" (which are usually monstrously deceptive and ambiguous) makes a lot of people rethink and relate to Sekai differently. No matter how much of a bastard Nozomu was - this will not change the fact that the entire Arakawa (excluding Hima i guess) family is mentally ill, and Sekai with her grooming and abusing of kid, in my opinion, is the darkest one.

I mean, to be fair, Sensei and Maya are basically just Sekai and Sensei 2.0.

We also have Sensei creeping on other Wizards now, as well. So, he might end up having around 4 Wizards under his belt to Sekai's presumably 1.

Ironically, from New Maya's perspective, her Sekai (Sensei) just used her for years and is now suddenly throwing her away to be with Niki. She never even had another lover like Sensei did with Niki while with Sekai. (As far as we know anyway)

All Maya has now is Ami, who Maya has intentionally lied to and betrayed countless times. (Maybe Ami is her Niki?)

Sensei could also add a whole bunch of other messed up things to his feats of fucked up-ness, tbh. Just based off what he's done in this game so far. (Haven't even made it to the Dark Route)

Don't get me wrong, Sekai is bad, but Sensei probably has her beat. Nozomu seemingly hitting Sekai is fucked up as well, though. This family should at least attempt to get help or simply quit spreading their sickness, but nope, got to keep the bloodline strong:

Spoiler

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[Moonflare]

I mean, to be fair, Sensei and Maya are basically just Sekai and Sensei 2.0.

We also have Sensei creeping on other Wizards now, as well. So, he might end up having around 4 Wizards under his belt to Sekai's presumably 1.

Ironically, from New Maya's perspective, her Sekai (Sensei) just used her for years and is now suddenly throwing her away to be with Niki. She never even had another lover like Sensei did with Niki while with Sekai. (As far as we know anyway)

All Maya has now is Ami, who Maya has intentionally lied to and betrayed countless times. (Maybe Ami is her Niki?)

Sensei could also add a whole bunch of other messed up things to his feats of fucked up-ness, tbh. Just based off what he's done in this game so far. (Haven't even gotten to the Dark Route)

Don't get me wrong, Sekai is bad, but Sensei probably has her beat. Nozomu seemingly hitting Sekai is fucked up as well, though. This family should at least attempt to get help or simply quit spreading their sickness, but nope, got to keep the bloodline strong:

Spoiler

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I feel like it's really unfair to compare Sekai and Akira and take into account what he has supposedly done inside of a simulation/dream/infinite loop without consequences.

In real life Sekai abused Akira, and Akira had sex with Maya. From what we know thus far, Sekai, regardless of intent and eventual development of their relationship, had as a fucked up of a start as it could be. And from what we know from Maya and Akira, it was at the very least less fucked up.

Even if we assume Maya was a real girl, from her own narration (assumed) she wanted it to happen and it took a while before Akira relented. Sekai was the very opposite, Akira's face is of sheer terror/pain in the initial flashbacks.

Both are wrong obviously, but yeah, it isn't a contest. I'll also say that I don't have a shred of doubt that Sekai would have done way worse than Akira in every shape and form if in his position. That's not even a question in my mind (and ghost Sekai has said so in multiple situations).

 

[Deleted member 4389531]

You are playing a terrible man who does terrible things

 

[platinumgoose]

I don't think I've posted before here but I wanted to point out a flaw in the theory of just going back in time. Selebus knows about shampoo and there are dorm events you can't get with shampoo. If you go back to an earlier time on a shampoo save you miss lots of events and Selebus won't add a variant for the missed shampoo events with different hair if you were reset to the past when people looked different.

 

[Apollo259]

In regards to what we saw at the end of the update. I'm assuming its going to be a few short segments, something like when Akira was at the school with fake Ayane and he had to realise it was fake then decide to leave to get back to the roof. Except maybe it will be from each of the girls perspectives in the various points in the timeline they've been sent to. Each with a fake Akira and they have to figure that out and want to leave to get to the roof, even if it might be somewhere they would rather stay.

 

[Bingoogus]

f#)@ed
f)(#@ed
sh@t

Why are you censoring your swearing? We're all playing a game about the cycle of child sexual abuse, i think we can handle a little swearing...

 

[Meskal1ne]

Sensei could also add a whole bunch of other messed up things to his feats of fucked up-ness, tbh. Just based off what he's done in this game so far. (Haven't even made it to the Dark Route)

There is no dark route cause as we all know:

Spoiler

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[barglenarglezous]

In regards to what we saw at the end of the update. I'm assuming its going to be a few short segments, something like when Akira was at the school with fake Ayane and he had to realise it was fake then decide to leave to get back to the roof. Except maybe it will be from each of the girls perspectives in the various points in the timeline they've been sent to. Each with a fake Akira and they have to figure that out and want to leave to get to the roof, even if it might be somewhere they would rather stay.

Exactly -- these are dreams of memories. We're still mid-reset. And one of the early previews for next update is Maya walking through a dark school hallway with the moon looming perilously close, implying that getting back to the rooftop is exactly what all the affected characters are meant to do. These aren't flashbacks or time travel, these are traps meant to prevent them from their goal.

 

[Detective Dc345]

The theories floating around in the discord are more tin foil than the ones on here.

Spoiler: Tin

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