Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.46.0] [Selebus]

[gazgiz]

I'm not sure if you're referring to hermeneutical reading more as a methodology for adding context and information to reach new conclusions, or more traditionally as interpreting scriptural or canonical themes and messages, in this case of the story/game. The first is kind of what we've been doing the whole time (others for a long time, me for a couple weeks) and the second is just one piece of the whole of the first. I think trying to use a specific framework to fully understand and question the game might trip you up, though. Especially in trying to apply theological or philosophical perspectives to things where the exact influence and perspective is unclear, or is an amalgamation.

I mean it in the sense of Macrobius' Commentary on the Dream of Scipio. So the latter. However, the whole point of developing a hermeneutic is to try and untangle an esoteric text that isn't hiding that it's a tangle of influences and perspectives. The danger is in being really careful and clear with the hermeneutics you are using, as very quickly everything can mean everything and your obscuring more than you're illuminating. I would disagree with you though in that we can absolutely tease out a couple of the lenses we should be using, even if we can't pin down an exact influence. I would argue that the following is all on the table:

• Literature / Literary Theory: Akira's specialty as a teacher. Nodoka's whole character.
• Poetry / Poetry Theory: Wakana's specialty as a teacher. A lot of plot hinges on poetry. Sel writing actual good poetry for a porn game (much harder than you think).
• Christin Theology: Agnostic on the denomination, but knowing enough about Christian Theology Sel knows more than just a gloss.
• Music Theory: I believe Sel is a band / Music cues in this game seem deeply important. But this is a blank spot for me, personally.
• Theater Theory: I guess this could be me being unable not to apply my own knowledge but it does feel like Sel is at least comfortable with Brecht
• Philosophy: I mean....
• "Occultism": I'm not sure that Sel is a practitioner or anything, but I've come across many small references to some ideas that are held in common between theosophy/thelma/chaos magic.

That doesn't mean that any ideas that come out of using those lenses are "correct," but I do think Sel is asking us to play with them.

Eh... I'm not sure if I'm seeing things the way you're seeing things fully. Of course there are a lot of ways to interpret things without being given the answer directly, and a lot of the story is purposefully left vague and up to interpretation, or simply isn't answered yet. But if the game is begging for you to read into it because it has the answers, then seemingly straight dialogue from an otherwise mysterious character is not where we should be poking holes. Regardless of exactly what she means by "didn't agree to this," she didn't agree to it. Your own example is seemingly what happens in Untitled. Whatever reasons she's there for, she's there, then sees what's happening, and she doesn't agree with it. And the information we have about her can only point us in so many directions until we have more.

I'm not trying to say your incorrect. It's very possible you are. I just think the text is more open than her being a "hostage" and treating the text as more open, may lead to better theory crafting down the line. But I think there is a huge difference in her being pulled into that event on false preferences and her disagreeing with methods. Hell pretty much every season of the The Boys is predicated on eventually one of the gang going to Butcher "Hold up, I didn't agree to this." Yet they all are oriented to the same goal.

I don't agree that teenage-fucking monster is 'bad' from an inherent or objective standpoint in the game either, as that's clearly a good or neutral thing in some characters' eyes. HOPE is all about impregnating vessels. But the point was that people's ideas of fixing someone and 'good' are different. It's abundantly clear that Himawari and someone like 79, HOPE, etc. are different in that regard, and that's the author's intent in writing her to be appalled. It's not the author tricking us. Not unless Himawari is revealed to be evil, or something.

I'm just softly trying to push back against any reading that has a "good" or "evil" attached to it. Himawari might want to make sausages, but not a lot of people wanna see or going to like how sausage is made.

The game does break the 4th wall and seem aware of its own 'non-reality' but that doesn't discredit anything else shown or stated in the game. If you're referring to characters telling us the only way out is to stop playing, then yeah, that's true for us and in real life. But does that negate what we know or are told about the world having existed and almost certainly being able to continue without us, knowing that the player and current version of the character we primarily see the world through can isn't necessary for the world and characters to exist in-universe? I highly doubt it.

I mean, this is where I get really Brechtian. I don't know how else to read the line, "Some would say he's been through nothing at all." without that context. Meaning, he hasn't experienced anything, because Akira isn't real. He hasn't experienced anything. We, the player is the one doing all the experiencing, and we can leave at anytime.

 

[Yarazin]

I'm also still curious about Moyo's "growth":

Spoiler

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Can't help but wonder if that's where Nao-chan came from, but if not...just what exactly was going on?

I've brought this up before. I think Moyo drinking the bucket got her knocked up with Nao-chan.

On the stretch goal subject. Sel responded to a question about them being in game and not something like a care package. I know its selfish, but I want Akira to be part of these scenes if they are "cannon".

 

[Fire Lord Zuko]

I've brought this up before. I think Moyo drinking the bucket got her knocked up with Nao-chan.

I did not even think of that possibility, but y’know what? I could honestly see it.

On the stretch goal subject. Sel responded to a question about them being in game and not something like a care package. I know its selfish, but I want Akira to be part of these scenes if they are "cannon".

Yeah, same here. I’m still not even sure what these ‘bonus animations’ are about. Like… will they be tied to actual events? In the Dorms? Maybe it’s just a non-canon sexy animation for fun and nothing else accessible on Sensei’s laptop?

Guess we’ll soon find out.

 

[Moonflare]

I've brought this up before. I think Moyo drinking the bucket got her knocked up with Nao-chan.

On the stretch goal subject. Sel responded to a question about them being in game and not something like a care package. I know its selfish, but I want Akira to be part of these scenes if they are "cannon".

Neither Moyo nor Nao-chan can speak properly, so there is that. At the same time, it would put into question Moyo's allegiance since Nao-chan seems very much to be something under the control of USER4 and sent to help Akira (whereas Long Maya would harm him with glee).

On the topic of canon scenes, as a player of erotic games I tend to dislike anything sexual that doesn't include the player as part of it, so if Selebus was doing this "for me" it would have the reverse effect. However, as it stands in the lore, Akira too has manifested that he doesn't like not being a part of the girls' developments, sexual or not. So we're most likely of the same mind on that.

I'm curious how a Rin x Sana "animation" would even go without Akira. Even more worringly is a Yasu x Touka one. When they were care packages it was fine, as it was all fanservice outside of the plot. To have it in the game puts into question Selebus' vision of a story versus being paid to include stuff in it - as I very much doubt Touka would willingly have anything sexual with Yasu. Let's hope we're misunderstanding what he means by "in-game", maybe it's a dream or something.

 

[PhiloPhilo]

I mean it in the sense of Macrobius' Commentary on the Dream of Scipio. So the latter. However, the whole point of developing a hermeneutic is to try and untangle an esoteric text that isn't hiding that it's a tangle of influences and perspectives. The danger is in being really careful and clear with the hermeneutics you are using, as very quickly everything can mean everything and your obscuring more than you're illuminating. I would disagree with you though in that we can absolutely tease out a couple of the lenses we should be using, even if we can't pin down an exact influence. I would argue that the following is all on the table:

• Literature / Literary Theory: Akira's specialty as a teacher. Nodoka's whole character.
• Poetry / Poetry Theory: Wakana's specialty as a teacher. A lot of plot hinges on poetry. Sel writing actual good poetry for a porn game (much harder than you think).
• Christin Theology: Agnostic on the denomination, but knowing enough about Christian Theology Sel knows more than just a gloss.
• Music Theory: I believe Sel is a band / Music cues in this game seem deeply important. But this is a blank spot for me, personally.
• Theater Theory: I guess this could be me being unable not to apply my own knowledge but it does feel like Sel is at least comfortable with Brecht
• Philosophy: I mean....
• "Occultism": I'm not sure that Sel is a practitioner or anything, but I've come across many small references to some ideas that are held in common between theosophy/thelma/chaos magic.

That doesn't mean that any ideas that come out of using those lenses are "correct," but I do think Sel is asking us to play with them.



I'm not trying to say your incorrect. It's very possible you are. I just think the text is more open than her being a "hostage" and treating the text as more open, may lead to better theory crafting down the line. But I think there is a huge difference in her being pulled into that event on false preferences and her disagreeing with methods. Hell pretty much every season of the The Boys is predicated on eventually one of the gang going to Butcher "Hold up, I didn't agree to this." Yet they all are oriented to the same goal.



I'm just softly trying to push back against any reading that has a "good" or "evil" attached to it. Himawari might want to make sausages, but not a lot of people wanna see or going to like how sausage is made.



I mean, this is where I get really Brechtian. I don't know how else to read the line, "Some would say he's been through nothing at all." without that context. Meaning, he hasn't experienced anything, because Akira isn't real. He hasn't experienced anything. We, the player is the one doing all the experiencing, and we can leave at anytime.

Yeah man, I'm not even fully sure where we're going with this to be honest. As I said, if you meant the latter in your meaning of hermeneutical reading, then we're already doing that and that's just one part of everyone's attempts to understand the story and its meaning. We're already acknowledging the game's influences from literature, poetry, music, theology etc. in our understanding, too. The story is a tangled mess of influences and symbolism and that's why we're trying to decipher it. I'm also not sure why you think you're disagreeing with me when you say, for example, theology can be used to grasp meaning from the game. I literally have posts about it, and it's kind of insulting to insinuate that someone isn't aware of things like theology or philosophy for some reason. You're literally not disagreeing with me on Himawari, either, or what we know about why she was there, what was said beforehand, etc.
As far as getting Brechtian goes, I think that's what the problem is, and what I meant by viewing everything through one framework. Not broad, meaningless frameworks like theologic or poetic, which we're already using, but Brechtian. You can't try to say we should be more open in our reading, and then say "this line must be Brechtian." The same could be said for hermeneutics, which is just a method of interpretation (Of scripture, or literature broadly,) which is pretty much the point of the thread and not something new. But it clearly means something specific to you insofar as how you view the story. I gotta be honest and say I think you drank way too much theater kid kool-aid and that's shaped how you see the game, and you're assuming that you're either correct or connecting the dots the most logically. But you're kind of just saying to read more gooder, so... Cool?

 

[somepersonoutofnowhere]

I did not even think of that possibility, but y’know what? I could honestly see it.


Yeah, same here. I’m still not even sure what these ‘bonus animations’ are about. Like… will they be tied to actual events? In the Dorms? Maybe it’s just a non-canon sexy animation for fun and nothing else accessible on Sensei’s laptop?

Guess we’ll soon find out.

Yeah I could see it being on the laptop, I don't really believe it's gonna be fitting if it's an option in dorms and Moonflare has already talked about it not being tied to the story.

But another thing is that the laptop has been inaccessible although if you use URM to access it, when you get out of the laptop after using URM and see where you could go, you get access to all the (chapter 4) generic events again which could mean next update we're getting access to the laptop and locations again. Or that could just be a glitch but considering the fact we're getting that bonus animation I doubt we won't have access to the laptop.

 

[PhiloPhilo]

Neither Moyo nor Nao-chan can speak properly, so there is that. At the same time, it would put into question Moyo's allegiance since Nao-chan seems very much to be something under the control of USER4 and sent to help Akira (whereas Long Maya would harm him with glee).

On the topic of canon scenes, as a player of erotic games I tend to dislike anything sexual that doesn't include the player as part of it, so if Selebus was doing this "for me" it would have the reverse effect. However, as it stands in the lore, Akira too has manifested that he doesn't like not being a part of the girls' developments, sexual or not. So we're most likely of the same mind on that.

I'm curious how a Rin x Sana "animation" would even go without Akira. Even more worringly is a Yasu x Touka one. When they were care packages it was fine, as it was all fanservice outside of the plot. To have it in the game puts into question Selebus' vision of a story versus being paid to include stuff in it - as I very much doubt Touka would willingly have anything sexual with Yasu. Let's hope we're misunderstanding what he means by "in-game", maybe it's a dream or something.

I don't really look at the bonus files or the discord or subscribestar or anything. Are the bonuses/animations confirmed to be in-game as in, like, happening in the game, at the dorms or something? Or accessible through the laptop or something like somepersonoutofnowhere said? Or could they be just in the files like in the game folder or something? Cause that would make a lot more sense if it's just bonus content and a seemingly unexpected thing to actually happen in the game. Especially Yasu x Touko. Though I assume all of these bonus scenes are just "noncanon hot events" where they got injected with horny juice or something.

 

[aramaug]

I ran into a scene that I found very interesting while playing through Chapter 2 again. I missed this on my first playthrough and I imagine many others did as well, since it only happens if Floor 2 wins the first dorm wars, which requires making at least one questionable judging decision.

Yasu is channeling someone, and based on the talk about the rooftop, it seems like it has to be some version of Maya.

Spoiler: Getting Comfortable

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I tried searching for old discussion on this, but wasn't able to find anything other than DeSkel15 pointing out that the rooftop being the usual place connects to both Maya Prime and the mystery MM note that sounds like Maya but which Maya Prime doesn't remember writing.

Spoiler

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The idea of being trapped in the dark makes me think this is some version of Maya that has been reset and is speaking from the wishing well/bottom of everything, maybe even a post-death Maya Prime thanks to time fuckery. It's possible that we saw Maya Prime in early happy events in the guise of AmIOkay, and there's connections between what Yasu is saying and the crying AmIOkay in "The Room with Clocks".

Spoiler

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Even before this scene, Yasu seemed to predict Maya Prime's eventual death, which I wrote about before. Maybe she knows about it because of channeling Maya Prime.

In her first real appearance, Yasu seems to predict that something tragic will happen to Sensei "at the end of the world" that will cause him to "tumble further and further from everything". To me, this sounds like she's predicting the death of Maya Prime, though maybe I'm forgetting an earlier event that could also be described in this way.

Spoiler: The Girl in the Black Dress

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Yasu says she will be there to help Sensei when he starts spiraling. She also says that he will "reach for salvation", which is interesting because it could mean he initiates the interaction (because he's looking for any way to bring Maya back?), but it could also just be her eternal optimism of converting everyone to her church.

In any case, while we don't know exactly how much Yasu knows about the tragic event, it's possible that she is aware that Maya was reset (I don't think we've seen her interact with New Maya at all so far, which could help confirm/deny this). It makes me wonder if she will tell Sensei he can talk to Maya Prime in the same way that Sana can talk to her brother. She also might claim that HOPE can bring Maya back, which would tie back to "The Letter T" where AmIOkay is crucified and the audio spells out "againshelives" and says "the answer you seek is hope" (though later on "againshelives" seems to refer to Sekai).

If it is somehow Maya Prime that Yasu is channeling, it has an interesting implication in that she still thinks she'll be on the rooftop in the future. This could mean that she thinks New Maya will make it to the roof in the next reset; she does refer to New Maya in the first person in her goodbye letter.

I'd love to hear if anyone has other theories, especially if we can somehow connect this to the MM note.

 

[Antosha]

Trite Dostoevskian ramble at best.

Now, don’t be dissing my man Fyodr.

BTW, also a professional actor, here. Mostly voice, these days. Apropos of nothing.

 

[Moonflare]

I ran into a scene that I found very interesting while playing through Chapter 2 again. I missed this on my first playthrough and I imagine many others did as well, since it only happens if Floor 2 wins the first dorm wars, which requires making at least one questionable judging decision.

Yasu is channeling someone, and based on the talk about the rooftop, it seems like it has to be some version of Maya.

Spoiler: Getting Comfortable

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I tried searching for old discussion on this, but wasn't able to find anything other than DeSkel15 pointing out that the rooftop being the usual place connects to both Maya Prime and the mystery MM note that sounds like Maya but which Maya Prime doesn't remember writing.

Spoiler

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The idea of being trapped in the dark makes me think this is some version of Maya that has been reset and is speaking from the wishing well/bottom of everything, maybe even a post-death Maya Prime thanks to time fuckery. It's possible that we saw Maya Prime in early happy events in the guise of AmIOkay, and there's connections between what Yasu is saying and the crying AmIOkay in "The Room with Clocks".

Spoiler

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Even before this scene, Yasu seemed to predict Maya Prime's eventual death, which I wrote about before. Maybe she knows about it because of channeling Maya Prime.

If it is somehow Maya Prime that Yasu is channeling, it has an interesting implication in that she still thinks she'll be on the rooftop in the future. This could mean that she thinks New Maya will make it to the roof in the next reset; she does refer to New Maya in the first person in her goodbye letter.

I'd love to hear if anyone has other theories, especially if we can somehow connect this to the MM note.

In the Priestess of Fallen Snow, the message sent by Wires (presumably) has in the hexadecimal that it was sent from atop the roof.

Spoiler: priestess of fallen snow

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I'd just assume Wires is atop the roof for some reason, but if Yasu already channelled narrator/shadow/prime/locked in heaven Maya once, then this could be the second time. Or maybe it's Wires allowing the connections both times? I don't know.

She's definitely channeling AmIOkay as she tries to escape the room with the clocks on that last part though. Nice catch.

 

[Axismundi]

Forgot about this game. Was the last update worth picking it back up, or should I wait till next month?

 

[LessonsInDissonance]

I'm unironically starting to read hex without having to translate it what's wrong with me

 

[PhiloPhilo]

I ran into a scene that I found very interesting while playing through Chapter 2 again. I missed this on my first playthrough and I imagine many others did as well, since it only happens if Floor 2 wins the first dorm wars, which requires making at least one questionable judging decision.

Yasu is channeling someone, and based on the talk about the rooftop, it seems like it has to be some version of Maya.

Spoiler: Getting Comfortable

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I tried searching for old discussion on this, but wasn't able to find anything other than DeSkel15 pointing out that the rooftop being the usual place connects to both Maya Prime and the mystery MM note that sounds like Maya but which Maya Prime doesn't remember writing.

Spoiler

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The idea of being trapped in the dark makes me think this is some version of Maya that has been reset and is speaking from the wishing well/bottom of everything, maybe even a post-death Maya Prime thanks to time fuckery. It's possible that we saw Maya Prime in early happy events in the guise of AmIOkay, and there's connections between what Yasu is saying and the crying AmIOkay in "The Room with Clocks".

Spoiler

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Even before this scene, Yasu seemed to predict Maya Prime's eventual death, which I wrote about before. Maybe she knows about it because of channeling Maya Prime.

If it is somehow Maya Prime that Yasu is channeling, it has an interesting implication in that she still thinks she'll be on the rooftop in the future. This could mean that she thinks New Maya will make it to the roof in the next reset; she does refer to New Maya in the first person in her goodbye letter.

I'd love to hear if anyone has other theories, especially if we can somehow connect this to the MM note.

Wow, this is pretty big actually. I don't think I saw the first scene where floor 2 wins.
I don't have a lot of hard hitting points to add, but some misc. thoughts. I was under the impression (or assumption) that Maya probably hasn't been reset, at least not many times or after significant periods. But I know there's been some speculation on that. I believe the mystery note only showed up some time after the start of the game, right? I can't remember the event, but I feel like it did. If it was always there, I'd say it could point to Maya having understood the resets and started getting Akira to come to the roof with her. Pretty sure this is a nonpoint unless I'm misremembering, though.

We see AmIOkay with Maya Prime in the copy of heaven, seemingly distinct. Could AmIOkay be a previous "Maya Prime" that was reset? Or some part of Maya that may or may not have been reset or otherwise locked away? Or just part of her shattered mind, more able to communicate/exist elsewhere? If she's just like the other clockwork children, probably not, but maybe.
Something about the 'replica of heaven' Maya is in and the way it's described bothers me, too.

Spoiler

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Special places only gods would look, tucked between the moon and its siblings. Between the moon and its siblings could mean a lot, or nothing. These places make wishes come true. No one finds them on accident and no one leaves them on purpose. They exist. I promise. But only if you believe in them. Where flowers won't bloom and bodies won't rot. Obviously if you're trapped there eternally, unchanging, you won't rot. It sounds eerily similar to the, or a wishing well, though. And the line about flowers before the rot. I've been going on about Himawari for long enough, I may as well continue. Is this replica of heaven in, or at least similar to the wishing well? Is that how Himawari managed to survive, in the wishing well? The idea of Maya Prime returning, as well as her current state, is similar to Himawari — a possibility. It's no accident that you end up there and you can't leave on purpose, seemingly, without outside help. It seems similar to Akira becoming his 'real' self or regaining his memories, as well. Is the wishing well, the bottom of everything, etc., something more than a place — what's "outside" the terminal, and everything that's possible? Outside of what's loaded into RAM and on a hard drive so to say? (Edit: We see the world seemingly partially 'unloaded' with Yasu explaining that that's what happens when Akira isn't around. This seems to fit in with the idea that things need a reason to exist and be 'loaded'.) Metaphorically where wishes and possibilities are when they don't exist? The room with the clocks could very well be one of these places, too. This might be stretching way too far. I have a bad habit of coopting posts, as I've noted before. My b. Maya Prime, a different iteration of Maya, AmIOkay, etc. could have found a way to leave that note, conspire with someone, etc., possibly akin to Himawari. Bonus theory, whatever's in Maya's boxes has hidden information about everything in case of or from before a reset.

Forgot about this game. Was the last update worth picking it back up, or should I wait till next month?

Nah, game's ass tbh

 

[Moonflare]

I'm unironically starting to read hex without having to translate it what's wrong with me

You seem the same as usual to me.

Spoiler

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[Moonflare]

Nah, game's ass tbh

No, man, game's ass is next update.

Spoiler: 0.42

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[PhiloPhilo]

No, man, game's ass is next update.

Spoiler: 0.42

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Why am I hungry?

 

[Moonflare]

We see AmIOkay with Maya Prime in the copy of heaven, seemingly distinct. Could AmIOkay be a previous "Maya Prime" that was reset? Or some part of Maya that may or may not have been reset or otherwise locked away? Or just part of her shattered mind, more able to communicate/exist elsewhere? If she's just like the other clockwork children, probably not, but maybe.
Something about the 'replica of heaven' Maya is in and the way it's described bothers me, too.

Is this replica of heaven in, or at least similar to the wishing well? Is that how Himawari managed to survive, in the wishing well? The idea of Maya Prime returning, as well as her current state, is similar to Himawari — a possibility. Is the wishing well, the bottom of everything, etc., something more than a place — what's "outside" the terminal, and everything that's possible? Outside of what's loaded into RAM and on a hard drive so to say? (Edit: We see the world seemingly partially 'unloaded' with Yasu explaining that that's what happens when Akira isn't around. This seems to fit in with the idea that things need a reason to exist and be 'loaded'.) Metaphorically where wishes and possibilities are when they don't exist? The room with the clocks could very well be one of these places, too.

Most of this post are random theories. You're unlikely to lose anything by not reading it. You have been warned.

Spoiler: AmIOkay

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Spoiler: Room with the clocks

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Spoiler: Wishing Well

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All in all, there's a high likelihood that throughout the entire game Akira never left the room with the clocks. While his mind wanders throughout the simulation, his "real body" is sitting on a chair waiting to either put another clock on the wall, or finally exit the room through the door that Himawari is waiting in front of.

 

[DeSkel15]

Neither Moyo nor Nao-chan can speak properly, so there is that. At the same time, it would put into question Moyo's allegiance since Nao-chan seems very much to be something under the control of USER4 and sent to help Akira (whereas Long Maya would harm him with glee).

This reminded me that besides my old theory of Nao-chan being related to Moyo:

Random Theory Time: Nao-chan might be either an altered Moyo or Moyo's daughter...

Remember the last time we heard of Moyo?:

Spoiler

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The whole change in "constitution" and "what is growing inside" stuff seems suspicious.

This also happens after Moyo swallows a bucket full of Sensei's semen in the 'Second Sun' Happy Event, then, after Moyo apparently goes through surgery in the 'Untitled' Chapter 3 Main Event, Nao-chan shows up in the 'First Contact' C3 Main Event.

On top of that, there's how Moyo can't seem to speak without damaging others, and how Nao-chan can't seem to speak at all:

Spoiler

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There's also some other things like how Nao-chan's poses seem a little similar to Moyo's:

Spoiler

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Overall: Moyo and Nao-chan seem possibly linked, and I'm not sure how I feel about this. It could just be nothing though, and something else is going on with Moyo and Nao-chan.

I also theorized that the Mayas initially belonged to Nao mostly due to the similar wording between 'The Room With Clocks' and 'Mother's Milk' Happy Events:

Spoiler

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The theory includes that:

• Nao was/is the god at Maya's shrine
• Played a part in the start of the Resets
• Fucked with Sensei for a long time until it lost interest
• May be responsible for Psycho Ami or at least Maya Prime's memory of it
• May have created the Maya Menagerie (Long Maya, Moyo, etc)
• May have allowed Maya to survive the Resets due to cleaning it's shrine and being it's follower (possibly why Maya was scared to stop being a shrine maiden)
• Lost interest in Maya
• Has some connection to Pareidolia (mentions the "ones concerned")
• Some connection to The World Itself/Sekai (mentioned "we" with Sekai right by it)
• and may be more or less the Center of everything relevant. Albeit, just a part of the actual Center of everything.
• Etc.

Also included that Nao may be USER4, lost interest in Using, and simply wants to watch how things play out now, leaving it's creations to become freelancers like Long Maya and Moyo. Possibly also recently sent Nao-chan to keep things interesting.

I ran into a scene that I found very interesting while playing through Chapter 2 again. I missed this on my first playthrough and I imagine many others did as well, since it only happens if Floor 2 wins the first dorm wars, which requires making at least one questionable judging decision.

Yasu is channeling someone, and based on the talk about the rooftop, it seems like it has to be some version of Maya.

Spoiler: Getting Comfortable

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I tried searching for old discussion on this, but wasn't able to find anything other than DeSkel15 pointing out that the rooftop being the usual place connects to both Maya Prime and the mystery MM note that sounds like Maya but which Maya Prime doesn't remember writing.

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The idea of being trapped in the dark makes me think this is some version of Maya that has been reset and is speaking from the wishing well/bottom of everything, maybe even a post-death Maya Prime thanks to time fuckery. It's possible that we saw Maya Prime in early happy events in the guise of AmIOkay, and there's connections between what Yasu is saying and the crying AmIOkay in "The Room with Clocks".

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Even before this scene, Yasu seemed to predict Maya Prime's eventual death, which I wrote about before. Maybe she knows about it because of channeling Maya Prime.

If it is somehow Maya Prime that Yasu is channeling, it has an interesting implication in that she still thinks she'll be on the rooftop in the future. This could mean that she thinks New Maya will make it to the roof in the next reset; she does refer to New Maya in the first person in her goodbye letter.

I'd love to hear if anyone has other theories, especially if we can somehow connect this to the MM note.

I definitely think Yasu may have been channeling Maya or at least someone else who was on the roof "as always" like her.

Kaori mentions similar as well, in Sana's Chapter 3 'Black Sandy Beaches' Event:

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Then gets a little foreboding:

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The "thank our organs" bit, being something that Yuu, Nao, and Nodoka have brought up:

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I seem to recall Yasu mentioning "thanking organs" at some point as well, but can't seem to recall when.

Then there's the "Remember to smile" part which is something that gets mentioned/showed quite a bit, but more notably, it's the exact name of the Event that Maya Prime crumbled in.

Overall: Kaori and Yasu seemed to mention this "same place as always" line, which seems to be a Maya line, so I have to wonder if they both have some connection to Maya and/or the Roof.

The MM note is still a mystery, for now, but with Yasu claiming this has all happened before, I've wondered if it was simply there from a past New Maya, and the recent Maya Prime wasn't aware of what happens to Maya Primes due to memory manipulation. Things might get rather paradoxical. Albeit, they probably already have.

 

[Yarazin]

• The Maya Menagerie

Love this name, hope it takes off!

 

[aramaug]

Wow, this is pretty big actually. I don't think I saw the first scene where floor 2 wins.
I don't have a lot of hard hitting points to add, but some misc. thoughts. I was under the impression (or assumption) that Maya probably hasn't been reset, at least not many times or after significant periods. But I know there's been some speculation on that. I believe the mystery note only showed up some time after the start of the game, right? I can't remember the event, but I feel like it did. If it was always there, I'd say it could point to Maya having understood the resets and started getting Akira to come to the roof with her. Pretty sure this is a nonpoint unless I'm misremembering, though.

We see AmIOkay with Maya Prime in the copy of heaven, seemingly distinct. Could AmIOkay be a previous "Maya Prime" that was reset? Or some part of Maya that may or may not have been reset or otherwise locked away? Or just part of her shattered mind, more able to communicate/exist elsewhere? If she's just like the other clockwork children, probably not, but maybe.
Something about the 'replica of heaven' Maya is in and the way it's described bothers me, too.

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Special places only gods would look, tucked between the moon and its siblings. Between the moon and its siblings could mean a lot, or nothing. These places make wishes come true. No one finds them on accident and no one leaves them on purpose. They exist. I promise. But only if you believe in them. Where flowers won't bloom and bodies won't rot. Obviously if you're trapped there eternally, unchanging, you won't rot. It sounds eerily similar to the, or a wishing well, though. And the line about flowers before the rot. I've been going on about Himawari for long enough, I may as well continue. Is this replica of heaven in, or at least similar to the wishing well? Is that how Himawari managed to survive, in the wishing well? The idea of Maya Prime returning, as well as her current state, is similar to Himawari — a possibility. It's no accident that you end up there and you can't leave on purpose, seemingly, without outside help. It seems similar to Akira becoming his 'real' self or regaining his memories, as well. Is the wishing well, the bottom of everything, etc., something more than a place — what's "outside" the terminal, and everything that's possible? Outside of what's loaded into RAM and on a hard drive so to say? (Edit: We see the world seemingly partially 'unloaded' with Yasu explaining that that's what happens when Akira isn't around. This seems to fit in with the idea that things need a reason to exist and be 'loaded'.) Metaphorically where wishes and possibilities are when they don't exist? The room with the clocks could very well be one of these places, too. This might be stretching way too far. I have a bad habit of coopting posts, as I've noted before. My b. Maya Prime, a different iteration of Maya, AmIOkay, etc. could have found a way to leave that note, conspire with someone, etc., possibly akin to Himawari. Bonus theory, whatever's in Maya's boxes has hidden information about everything in case of or from before a reset.



Nah, game's ass tbh

We first see the MM note during the second reset. We don't know for sure that it wasn't there before that, because we never see the board, but it would be odd if it was there before the first reset, since it would be meaningless/confusing to Sensei.

There definitely is some connection between the den of the mole rat, the room with clocks, and the wishing well:

• The den of the molerat is a replica of Heaven. In previous events in the same classroom, it is described as being at the bottom of everything and somewhere underneath Heaven.
• The room with clocks is also at the bottom of everything. In one of the scenes there, we can see the upside down house through a window, but it's right-side up, implying the room is upside down with respect to the world.
• In "Mother's Milk", the Xoanon (the entity some people call NAO) says that "this is what Heaven looks like". It also says "I am you" but upside down, so it might be the reflection of Akira from the audio file that Moonflare mentioned. The upside down part could mean that the entire wishing well is upside down, connecting it to the house and the room with clocks.

What exactly the connection is isn't entirely clear. Since the Xoanon only says that the wishing well "looks like" Heaven, it's possible that the wishing well itself is a/the replica of Heaven, and the den of the mole rat is part of it. Or it could be that the wishing well is itself Heaven, and the den of the mole rat is its replica.

In the wishing well, the Xoanon also says "this is where you will come when you die". This could mean literal death, as might have happened to each of Sensei and Makoto when they killed themselves. On the other hand, the normal way that Sensei "dies" in the cycle is by being factory reset, so it's possible that the old consciousness is sent to the wishing well when that happens. So maybe that's what happened (initially) to Maya Prime.

One other point I haven't thought about before now: in the wishing well, we see Nodoka and teen Sara. The presence of teen Sara might mean that time doesn't operate as usual there, which would explain how Maya Prime could appear in happy events and talk through Yasu even before her death. It might also help explain where Himawari comes from. (And it would mean it's possible that the Nodoka in the well is actually from some future event).

Personally, I believe that there isn't just one entity called AmIOkay. At different times she displays different personalities and different goals. In some later happy events we see multiple Mayas in the background, which I suspect are just different versions of AmIOkay. I've said before that I like the idea that a new AmIOkay is produced from every reset version of Maya, though I'm not sure how her Sekai connections fit into that.