Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.46.0] [Selebus]

[Breadtaker]

So I am pretty small brain, and I get that Akira is objectively a bad person, but I am very confused and would love to get some insight on the "Optimal playthrough" as it is now. So I playe dup to the 4.0 update, doing everything to make all the events green. Minmaxed, ect, but all throughout I was under the impression that the "Correct" path was as fence sitting as possible, as of the last two patches relating to the rich girls little sister, I can't recall her name right now, and the big choice with Io... getting the green path has reached new levels of skeezebag. IDK if I want to keep going getting the green path if it is so morally objectinionable and logically flawed... but... I really... REALLY dont want to replay the whole thing again and fix choices if somehow it ends up all hunk dory or doesn't matter in the end. Just the cheater pants bugs the shit out of me, this one is pretty next level.

I mean things might have gotten better after that particular event, I stopped playing 4.1 the second I was faced with the Io choice and saw it was the green path, but I saw there was a new update and I want to play, I love this game, but god damn does this dude conflict me between getting the good ending and actually picking the choices I want to. So far these have been really the only conflicting choices I have had to make...

You're not alone in that line of thinking. The Io choice caused a lot of people to question if they want to continue on the green path. Nothing has really happened with Tsukasa yet but I imagine it will provoke a similar reaction.

I think generally the green path has led to a more compelling story so far. You can put your faith in Selebus's writing and hope that continues to be the case. The green path will almost certainly have more content in it. But its okay to miss things too especially if you're not comfortable with it. It's not like the game's narrative wont support your decision.

For me, I ultimately went with the green path on Io's story because the bad option left such an impression on me that I couldn't go back to thinking that wasn't part of Io's story. If you wind up wanting to change your decision without the hassle of replaying so much of the game, you can use the Universal Renpy Mod to change your save data.

 

[Moonflare]

Liquefying teeth were referenced twice in 0.41, so I don't think he's dropped it.

Spoiler

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Here's the Tsuneyo scene you referenced:

Spoiler: Drug Use & Jump-Rope

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I've been tracking references to liquid teeth on my second playthrough, here's what I've found so far:

Spoiler

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I tend to think it's an important symbol rather than just general icky imagery precisely because of what Tsuneyo says. I think it's an indication that Sensei (or whoever) has broken some unknown rule, but I'm not sure whether these rules are specific to Wires or not. In all three of the happy scenes it's connected to AmIOkay, specifically sexual desire for her at least in the first two, so there might be something there.

Conceivably, it's Himawari that restores Akira via an egg at the end of "Room with the clocks". And if consuming an egg restores teeth then the teeth thing is either related to slipping or the egg serves a secondary function.

Maybe the liquefying of the teeth is related to being rejected by the current reality, and taking hold of an egg restores your pass or something.

Edit: going back to the Ami being factory reset in front of Akira in the beginning of the first winter, it could be that it was her being rejected by the current reality (thus the liquefying - if in that scene, I don't remember - would qualify as her being rejected by reality as well).

 

[Moonflare]

So I am pretty small brain, and I get that Akira is objectively a bad person, but I am very confused and would love to get some insight on the "Optimal playthrough" as it is now. So I playe dup to the 4.0 update, doing everything to make all the events green. Minmaxed, ect, but all throughout I was under the impression that the "Correct" path was as fence sitting as possible, as of the last two patches relating to the rich girls little sister, I can't recall her name right now, and the big choice with Io... getting the green path has reached new levels of skeezebag. IDK if I want to keep going getting the green path if it is so morally objectinionable and logically flawed... but... I really... REALLY dont want to replay the whole thing again and fix choices if somehow it ends up all hunk dory or doesn't matter in the end. Just the cheater pants bugs the shit out of me, this one is pretty next level.

I mean things might have gotten better after that particular event, I stopped playing 4.1 the second I was faced with the Io choice and saw it was the green path, but I saw there was a new update and I want to play, I love this game, but god damn does this dude conflict me between getting the good ending and actually picking the choices I want to. So far these have been really the only conflicting choices I have had to make...

Your troubles are understandable and largely shared by a good portion of the community.

However, in the shortest way to explain it: You can either read the story Selebus wants to tell (green path), or the story that is at times more pallatable (and will always make less sense).

Additionally, this is how I see it, and maybe it helps: The player is not Sensei. Sensei is a character called Akira in a game that very much isn't an rpg. This game is written by an author that is a very good writer and a bad game designer. The way choice is presented in LiL, in my opinion, shouldn't even exist - because while the concept is very welcomed, its implementation is mediocre at best.

Final note: if you care more about writing quality, play the green path, if you care more about feeling good, choose the moral choice everytime.

 

[thebladeofwar]

You're not alone in that line of thinking. The Io choice caused a lot of people to question if they want to continue on the green path. Nothing has really happened with Tsukasa yet but I imagine it will provoke a similar reaction.

I think generally the green path has led to a more compelling story so far. You can put your faith in Selebus's writing and hope that continues to be the case. The green path will almost certainly have more content in it. But its okay to miss things too especially if you're not comfortable with it. It's not like the game's narrative wont support your decision.

For me, I ultimately went with the green path on Io's story because the bad option left such an impression on me that I couldn't go back to thinking that wasn't part of Io's story. If you wind up wanting to change your decision without the hassle of replaying so much of the game, you can use the Universal Renpy Mod to change your save data.

Your troubles are understandable and largely shared by a good portion of the community.

However, in the shortest way to explain it: You can either read the story Selebus wants to tell (green path), or the story that is at times more pallatable (and will always make less sense).

Additionally, this is how I see it, and maybe it helps: The player is not Sensei. Sensei is a character called Akira in a game that very much isn't an rpg. This game is written by an author that is a very good writer and a bad game designer. The way choice is presented in LiL, in my opinion, shouldn't even exist - because while the concept is very welcomed, its implementation is mediocre at best.

Final note: if you care more about writing quality, play the green path, if you care more about feeling good, choose the moral choice everytime.

Well as it stands from me finishing redownloading my choices are very limited as my save no longer works... this might be a wait till release moment, because I already replayed the game like 4 times for various reasons. Not sure why my save was corrupted.

Shot in the dark does anyone have a green save to 4.1s start? If not... I might be super fucked. Even ifnoring the failure leads to a reset... damn. I a bit butt flustered now.

 

[barglenarglezous]

So I am pretty small brain, and I get that Akira is objectively a bad person, but I am very confused and would love to get some insight on the "Optimal playthrough" as it is now. So I playe dup to the 4.0 update, doing everything to make all the events green. Minmaxed, ect, but all throughout I was under the impression that the "Correct" path was as fence sitting as possible, as of the last two patches relating to the rich girls little sister, I can't recall her name right now, and the big choice with Io... getting the green path has reached new levels of skeezebag. IDK if I want to keep going getting the green path if it is so morally objectinionable and logically flawed... but... I really... REALLY dont want to replay the whole thing again and fix choices if somehow it ends up all hunk dory or doesn't matter in the end. Just the cheater pants bugs the shit out of me, this one is pretty next level.

I mean things might have gotten better after that particular event, I stopped playing 4.1 the second I was faced with the Io choice and saw it was the green path, but I saw there was a new update and I want to play, I love this game, but god damn does this dude conflict me between getting the good ending and actually picking the choices I want to. So far these have been really the only conflicting choices I have had to make...

There will be more. Beyond a doubt, there will be more. We're not even in the dark path chapters yet.

Looking at early game choices that lead to green/red splits -- electing not to sleep with Sara cuts off quite a few scenes, rejecting Ami cuts of a lot more, including a bunch of Happy scenes, and being a bad homie to Rin blocks off a few.

So the late-game choices are likely to be as consequential down the line. Stomachache is going to impact future content, and likely not just for Io.

A core theme of the game is that suffering is part of life, and that coming out the other end of it allows you to appreciate the parts of life that are truly beautiful even more. And it's implied that Akira sees the suffering of these girls as something beautiful in and of itself.

 

[ErisT]

So I am pretty small brain, and I get that Akira is objectively a bad person, but I am very confused and would love to get some insight on the "Optimal playthrough" as it is now. So I playe dup to the 4.0 update, doing everything to make all the events green. Minmaxed, ect, but all throughout I was under the impression that the "Correct" path was as fence sitting as possible, as of the last two patches relating to the rich girls little sister, I can't recall her name right now, and the big choice with Io... getting the green path has reached new levels of skeezebag. IDK if I want to keep going getting the green path if it is so morally objectinionable and logically flawed... but... I really... REALLY dont want to replay the whole thing again and fix choices if somehow it ends up all hunk dory or doesn't matter in the end. Just the cheater pants bugs the shit out of me, this one is pretty next level.

I mean things might have gotten better after that particular event, I stopped playing 4.1 the second I was faced with the Io choice and saw it was the green path, but I saw there was a new update and I want to play, I love this game, but god damn does this dude conflict me between getting the good ending and actually picking the choices I want to. So far these have been really the only conflicting choices I have had to make...

Judging by the voices in Akira's head, things are likely to get worse in this regard before they get better.

This is a morally objectionable game and will continue to raise objections.

 

[fasoaga]

So I am pretty small brain, and I get that Akira is objectively a bad person, but I am very confused and would love to get some insight on the "Optimal playthrough" as it is now. So I playe dup to the 4.0 update, doing everything to make all the events green. Minmaxed, ect, but all throughout I was under the impression that the "Correct" path was as fence sitting as possible, as of the last two patches relating to the rich girls little sister, I can't recall her name right now, and the big choice with Io... getting the green path has reached new levels of skeezebag. IDK if I want to keep going getting the green path if it is so morally objectinionable and logically flawed... but... I really... REALLY dont want to replay the whole thing again and fix choices if somehow it ends up all hunk dory or doesn't matter in the end. Just the cheater pants bugs the shit out of me, this one is pretty next level.

I mean things might have gotten better after that particular event, I stopped playing 4.1 the second I was faced with the Io choice and saw it was the green path, but I saw there was a new update and I want to play, I love this game, but god damn does this dude conflict me between getting the good ending and actually picking the choices I want to. So far these have been really the only conflicting choices I have had to make...

I think it depends how you view or the way you consume the story. When i start playing the game about a year ago, i knew this game was (i dont know the correct english word for it) mentally challenging for the player. It was basically a test of how much fucked up shit you can watch before you puke. But i was telling myself that it's just a game, a story told by selebus. When i stop enjoying i could i just stop playing and delete. Right?

It's similar to eating spicy hot chicken with increasing the level of hot spice. At which point you stop adding spice? Or do you stop at all?
Do you enjoy the challange of hot chicken? To extent of ghost pepper (stomachache) hotness.
Are you just curious about how far it can go in the spice scale?


I was a kind of person who found the ketchup too spicy but wanted to taste all the hot chicken that selebus gave me because i never seen this much spice in a chicken before. But then i came across a pepper(Io option) that i could not dare to eat.
And i did not add that specific spice to my already very spicy chicken. The result? When Io told Uta that "for the first time in my life it didn't end in utter tragedy" this is the best perfectly spiced chicken ever.

TLDR: All in the end this is a game for your enjoyment, when a game gave you a choice to make that would make you mentally suffer in in real life just choose the other option.

 

[shmurfer]

Well as it stands from me finishing redownloading my choices are very limited as my save no longer works... this might be a wait till release moment, because I already replayed the game like 4 times for various reasons. Not sure why my save was corrupted.

Shot in the dark does anyone have a green save to 4.1s start? If not... I might be super fucked. Even ifnoring the failure leads to a reset... damn. I a bit butt flustered now.

Did you pirate the care packages? That would have deleted them. If not, did you play with the guide mod while making those saves? Once you start using it you have to keep using it.

 

[Moonflare]

It's similar to eating spicy hot chicken with increasing the level of hot spice. At which point you stop adding spice? Or do you stop at all?

The amount of spicy references in this made me consider this was a Philo fake account at some point lol

I think it's safe to say that people read VNs for pleasure, so does *that* mean playing LiL makes you a fucked up person? No. But it does make you a person with fucked up ("""alternative""") tastes.

I don't know that I agree exactly. I guess it depends on a definition of alternative tastes. Playing a VN would certainly be an alternative taste to mainstream media. And playing an adult VN for the story would also be an alternative taste within its genre. As to it being a "fucked up taste", I think this is the main point of "it depends".

Spoiler: further thoughts

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[LessonsInDissonance]

I think it's safe to say that people read VNs for pleasure, so does *that* mean playing LiL makes you a fucked up person? No. But it does make you a person with fucked up ("""alternative""") tastes. The sooner you embrace that and stop feeling guilty about it, the sooner you'll achieve happiness!!!!!!

You shouldn't feel guilty about enjoying things that cause no harm to any real individual.
When you play a violent videogame, you enjoy the fact that you go around killing creatures and people, but you sure as hell aren't going to enjoy seeing a massacre in real life.
Same thing applies to VNs, you can enjoy imaginary rape and other fucked up shit as long as it's not in real life.
Io's destruction is one of my favorite events because of how the event is constructed; a creepy situation and eerie environment, and I also found it, in a matter of speaking, "hot" even if you aren't supposed to.
Usually in real life I would consider myself as a caring and sensitive person, I am repulsed by the thought of a human being defiled in any possible way, be it mental, physical or sexual torture.
But when it's fiction it's almost as if the forbidden tastes better, knowing there is nobody actually getting hurt.
I must admit most of these characters have grown on me in a way that the fictional aspect gets blurred and you genuinely start worrying, but at the end of the day, this story's main focus is to be an artistic piece to be enjoyed at each one's disposition, and if they LIKE the rape scenes, the hurt scenes, or anything else, it's within their own jurisdiction to do so.

 

[walkerin]

I guess there is no need to donate to this dev. the cursed mobile game ads that he keep adding inside game must be paying him enough.

 

[Comiies]

Conceivably, it's Himawari that restores Akira via an egg at the end of "Room with the clocks". And if consuming an egg restores teeth then the teeth thing is either related to slipping or the egg serves a secondary function.

Maybe the liquefying of the teeth is related to being rejected by the current reality, and taking hold of an egg restores your pass or something.

Edit: going back to the Ami being factory reset in front of Akira in the beginning of the first winter, it could be that it was her being rejected by the current reality (thus the liquefying - if in that scene, I don't remember - would qualify as her being rejected by reality as well).

The egg thing always eluded me.For now it just reminds me of the egg theory(Funny little thing.Would rec to search it on ytube) so its all about being rebirthed.Thats why Sensei was able to be saved in the room of clocks via one.

 

[BlackDays]

First PhiloPhilo
Yeah i like spicey/hot stuff. When i was younger i ate stuff hot/spicey.
Nowadays it would have severe consequences i'm not that fond of.

Now
About "Teeth turning liquid".
Back then i thought it might have been a hint towards how Akira might had met the ground face forward when he probably jumped. Like his teeth and jaw probably crushed and were shoven down his throat.

But with what i've seen in posts lately maybe Sel wanted to point out how some parents tell their kids stupid stories to make them listen/do as they're told.
Something like Sekai here:
te "And look at you- sleeping in on the lord’s day. You need to wake up or God will cut your hands off and feed them to his angels. It’s true because I said so."
So maybe Saki and or Sekai told Akira, when he was young, that if for example he eats to much candy: "Your teeth will liquify and suffocate you" or something along that line.
This could also tie in with the NIB stuff about Yuu (and Saki?) eating to much candy, which MIGHT be the reason they died.
(I think someone mentioned that probability)

 

[Comiies]

First PhiloPhilo
Yeah i like spicey/hot stuff. When i was younger i ate stuff hot/spicey.
Nowadays it would have severe consequences i'm not that fond of.

Now
About "Teeth turning liquid".
Back then i thought it might have been a hint towards how Akira might had met the ground face forward when he probably jumped. Like his teeth and jaw probably crushed and where shoven down his throat.

But with what i've seen in posts lately maybe Sel wanted to point out how some parents tell their kids stupid stories to make them listen/do as they're told.
Something like Sekai here:
te "And look at you- sleeping in on the lord’s day. You need to wake up or God will cut your hands off and feed them to his angels. It’s true because I said so."
So maybe Saki and or Sekai told Akira, when he was young, that if for example he eats to much candy: "You're teeth will liquify and suffocate you" or something along that line.
This could also tie in with the NIB stuff about Yuu (and Saki?) eating to much candy, which MIGHT be the reason they died.
(I think someone mentioned that probability)

Ah yes.Another possible NiB connection.Until i perish i will express my undeniable dislike of any possible connection with NiB,Amen.

 

[fasoaga]

About teeth turning liquid. (Warning: far fetched theory)

-Melting pointh of teeth is 1090 C according to google.
-Peak flame temperature of gasoline is about 1050 C. (For diesel it's around 1700)
-When you try to identify unrecognizable bodies you look for teeth since similar to fingerprints every person has different oral cavity.

We know she died in the car crash but not immediately because they talked about her infidelity.("O world, in our dying moments please tell me. Why him?")

So crash happened, Akira and Ami got out but Sekai and Nozomu stuck inside the car. A fire spreads and both them dies. They can't identify bones so Akira has another trauma because he doesn't know which grave contains his lover/abuser's bones.(I think game always show Sekai and Nozomu's grave togerher, never focuses either of them seperatly.)

Do we have information about Sekai's corpse? Or the game ever gave us about about charred meat smell?

 

[Riolol]

About teeth turning liquid. (Warning: far fetched theory)

-Melting pointh of teeth is 1090 C according to google.
-Peak flame temperature of gasoline is about 1050 C. (For diesel it's around 1700)
-When you try to identify unrecognizable bodies you look for teeth since similar to fingerprints every person has different oral cavity.

We know she died in the car crash but not immediately because they talked about her infidelity.("O world, in our dying moments please tell me. Why him?")

So crash happened, Akira and Ami got out but Sekai and Nozomu stuck inside the car. A fire spreads and both them dies. They can't identify bones so Akira has another trauma because he doesn't know which grave contains his lover/abuser's bones.(I think game always show Sekai and Nozomu's grave togerher, never focuses either of them seperatly.)

Do we have information about Sekai's corpse? Or the game ever gave us about about charred meat smell?

Small point but you could probably tell if the bones are male or female. I like the teeth melting in the fire theory though.

 

[Comiies]

About teeth turning liquid. (Warning: far fetched theory)

-Melting pointh of teeth is 1090 C according to google.
-Peak flame temperature of gasoline is about 1050 C. (For diesel it's around 1700)
-When you try to identify unrecognizable bodies you look for teeth since similar to fingerprints every person has different oral cavity.

We know she died in the car crash but not immediately because they talked about her infidelity.("O world, in our dying moments please tell me. Why him?")

So crash happened, Akira and Ami got out but Sekai and Nozomu stuck inside the car. A fire spreads and both them dies. They can't identify bones so Akira has another trauma because he doesn't know which grave contains his lover/abuser's bones.(I think game always show Sekai and Nozomu's grave togerher, never focuses either of them seperatly.)

Do we have information about Sekai's corpse? Or the game ever gave us about about charred meat smell?

Why would the cause of death be a fire? Why not blunt force trauma or blood lose? To my knowledge we havent the faintest clue as to HOW sekai and Nozumo died other than the fact that it was a car crash.So supposing that the cause of death was fire,which we dont know if its true,and building a theory out of it doesnt really hold water.

 

[barglenarglezous]

It is more likely that melting teeth is a reference to cremation. Japan has a %99.9 cremation rate, and it's been that high for over a decade. By virtue of their being an island nation and needing much of that limited land for agriculture, they don't have the real estate for expansive graveyards like the US does.

Cremated remains are often buried, and in Japan there are family graves/memorials where multiple members of the family might have their cremains interred. This is likely what Akira and Ami visit.

A few other points that make it unlike Sekai died in a fire bad enough to melt her teeth:
1) You have to still be alive to have your organs harvested, and it's heavily implied that Kaori recieved an organ transplant from Sekai (she calls herself a bag of spare parts and is briefly possessed by Sekai). If you're in a fire bad enough to melt your teeth, you are not going to survive that long enough to donate your organs.
2) Akira mentions holding her after the accident, which would be impossible if she were just a pile of ash (the teeth are the last thing to burn because of their high melting point relative to the rest of their body)
3) Some early happy scenes have an audio track of life-support noises. Who's on life support, and why would their being on life-support be in Akira's trauma space? The only people he cares that much about are Sekai, Ami, and Maya. Which of those three would have most likely been on life support? The one who dies (neither Ami nor Maya have indicated past medical trauma)

The most likely scenario is that Nozomu dies on the spot, Sekai is left in a near-death vegitative state, and Akira has to make the call to pull the plug and donate her organs as he's the next of kin. And Kaori is the life he saved with that decision -- which is why Selebus mentions that she's one of the most important characters in the game. She's the consequence of the worst choice he ever had to make in his life.

Also, the line "O world, in our dying moments please tell me. Why him?" is written by Akira. Akira is dying on the inside while Sekai is dying physically, and lamenting that it was his brother that dies by her side and not himself.

Finally -- symbolically, the casket used to cremate someone can be viewed as a vehicle carrying the deceased towards a final destination, and poets have this pesky tendency to be really big on symbolism, so interpreting a lot of what Akira says literally is a bit of a trap -- especially when he's in shoegaze word soup mode.

Edited to add point 3 and the following paragraph, as I remembered them after hitting Send.

 

[k1n5l4y3r]

About teeth turning liquid. (Warning: far fetched theory)

-Melting pointh of teeth is 1090 C according to google.
-Peak flame temperature of gasoline is about 1050 C. (For diesel it's around 1700)
-When you try to identify unrecognizable bodies you look for teeth since similar to fingerprints every person has different oral cavity.

We know she died in the car crash but not immediately because they talked about her infidelity.("O world, in our dying moments please tell me. Why him?")

So crash happened, Akira and Ami got out but Sekai and Nozomu stuck inside the car. A fire spreads and both them dies. They can't identify bones so Akira has another trauma because he doesn't know which grave contains his lover/abuser's bones.(I think game always show Sekai and Nozomu's grave togerher, never focuses either of them seperatly.)

Do we have information about Sekai's corpse? Or the game ever gave us about about charred meat smell?

Sekai's organs, at least one of them, is currently inside Kaori, allegedly at least, which is how Sekai possess Kaori.

 

[fasoaga]

It is more likely that melting teeth is a reference to cremation. Japan has a %99.9 cremation rate, and it's been that high for over a decade. By virtue of their being an island nation and needing much of that limited land for agriculture, they don't have the real estate for expansive graveyards like the US does.

Cremated remains are often buried, and in Japan there are family graves/memorials where multiple members of the family might have their cremains interred. This is likely what Akira and Ami visit.

A few other points that make it unlike Sekai died in a fire bad enough to melt her teeth:
1) You have to still be alive to have your organs harvested, and it's heavily implied that Kaori recieved an organ transplant from Sekai (she calls herself a bag of spare parts and is briefly possessed by Sekai). If you're in a fire bad enough to melt your teeth, you are not going to survive that long enough to donate your organs.
2) Akira mentions holding her after the accident, which would be impossible if she were just a pile of ash (the teeth are the last thing to burn because of their high melting point relative to the rest of their body)

Also, the line "O world, in our dying moments please tell me. Why him?" is written by Akira. Akira is dying on the inside while Sekai is dying physically, and lamenting that it was his brother that dies by her side and not himself.

Finally -- symbolically, the casket used to cremate someone can be viewed as a vehicle carrying the deceased towards a final destination, and poets have this pesky tendency to be really big on symbolism, so interpreting a lot of what Akira says literally is a bit of a trap -- especially when he's in shoegaze word soup mode.

Yeah Kaori organs and Akira holding Sekai disprove my theory.