Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.48.0] [Selebus]

[gazgiz]

Narrative Determinism?

I mean yea, in a "Porn Game" there is a convoluted reason why you get to sleep with everybody. It's the genre.

However, LiL, is clearly not a porn game, and the MC is aware of how "wrong" it is. In fact, all the characters have a vague sense this isn't right. It's why the game continually begs you to stop playing it.

 

[gazgiz]

Niki as well

Would Niki have still slept with us, if we weren't lying about fucking a bunch of underage girls? Including her sister?

Because if the answer is "no" we have manipulated her.

Again, we have a character state outright that we have never seen a consensual sex act in this game.

However that is before we fuck (best girl) Nodoka. So that may be the first one.

 

[Riolol]

Would Niki have still slept with us, if we weren't lying about fucking a bunch of underage girls? Including her sister?

Because if the answer is "no" we have manipulated her.

Again, we have a character state outright that we have never seen a consensual sex act in this game.

However that is before we fuck (best girl) Nodoka. So that may be the first one.

She would (probably) not have consented if she knew all the facts, therefore she did not consent? That's a hell of a reach. I thought you were going to say none of the sex was consensual because Akira wasn't fully in control or something, that would have been better than this.

 

[gazgiz]

She would (probably) not have consented if she knew all the facts, therefore she did not consent? That's a hell of a reach. I thought you were going to say none of the sex was consensual because Akira wasn't fully in control or something, that would have been better than this.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but if you lie up and down to a woman to sleep with them, you have committed a "rape."

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.

And while I think Niki is very down bad, I think she would not have fucked us if she new we were fucking Ami. But if you went "good uncle," her sister grinding on top of us topless would probably have done it.

 

[Moonflare]

I know this isn't really all that impressive, but I totally called it. Felt sick to my stomach but I think that Sel did a good job with that.

I think that along with what people have already said about how Akira just handles things the only way he knows how (with his massive penis), Akira is just doing something absolutely wrong and we know it. We're being forced along for the ride on his descent into the dark path. The shit he's doing right now isn't supposed to redeem him, but further condemn him. At least, that's how I'm viewing it.

I do think this is how we'll get back to talking to Io eventually. They'll talk at the Halloween party, it will probably get worse, then the reset will happen and Io won't understand why Akira refuses to talk to her, or is extremely uncomfortable when he does (unless the dark route goes into full swing here and she has full memory of it)

Did she get set on fire? I thought she got her burns from boiling water. But yeah, wow, her brother watched that too? Like wtaf.

I really agree with the analysis of the Io scene. It viscerally disgusted me to watch but it was very interesting to see how the two characters approached the same problem in the absolute worst way.

Edit: Wow, this became a very big post - so, basically, I go into Akira's side of things for stomachache. There is no point to be made here, it is merely a look at his side of things for what happened.

Regarding Imani, yeah, you're right, it was boiling water not being set on fire. I meant to say that, I was just too emotional at the time. Regarding the Io stuff, it is obviously very disturbing to watch, but it isn't as bad as it may seem imo. Many people have hinted at this in their analysis, and I guess it falls to me to be the first one saying it proper.

Let's actually review what happened. Io was terrified that Akira found out about her being abused. When she finds out he hasn't, they go to a restaurant but she asks to leave because she's reminded of her mom. Then they go to her bedroom. Io attacks Ami. Akira tries to show how family is important by using her aunt as an example. This further spirals out of control because it triggers Io again in the same night when Akira calls her aunt a mom. So she attacks Akira being a parent. Which leads to resistence, and for her to disclose that she was raped my her mom. Then she attacks him by comparing him to her mom because of the Uta picture, which is saying that he's just another rapist that can't control himself around 5 year olds. By this point, everything has gone completely off the rails on Io's part. This is very relevant, hold on to that. Then Io says "you know what, just fuck me." Akira was not the lead at all for this sequence of events, it was Io.

Now, to "Stomachache" proper. Io starts vomiting every single thing about her being raped on Akira. And still putting him on the spot as if he was her mom. Because, by this point, she has no idea about him also being a victim. He tries to tell her he was raped as well, and she shoots him down because he's using "flowery" words. Then she keeps pressing him to fuck her and calls him not wanting to simply not wanting to get a second hand sex doll. I'm trying to keep this short, but this is very relevant:

Spoiler: stomachache

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Akira wants to leave. Akira doesn't want to have to deal with any of this. It was not his intention for anything to happen on any step leading to this. Things just keep spiraling out of control and Io keeps forcing points down his throat at every turn. "so you're like my mom, so you won't fuck me because I'm used goods, so you'll abandon me now that you know the truth".

They reveal to eachother details of their traumas, Akira tells the first person in his life about Sekai and his trauma, straight up:

Spoiler: stomachache

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This is just how desperate Akira is here. Akira talks to Io about Sekai and aknowledges the reality of their situation instead of the fantasy around her. So here's the thing:

Spoiler: stomachache

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For as disgusting as it is to watch it take place, this is not a dark path or a Molly situation imo, this is a very broken person trying his best to deal with an impossible situation. Akira tries to defuse everything a million times, then he goes to the extreme of revealing everything to Io in order to defuse it.

Spoiler: stomachache

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Now, is leaving the sane option here? Yes, 100%. But as the scene takes place, Akira becomes Sekai in his mannerisms, smiles and things he says. He's reliving his trauma from her perspective, just as Io is reliving hers. Then what happens? Akira finds out that it doesn't work. In this short amount of time he's forced to say out loud that Sekai raped him, that he can't understand why he loves her, that he might suffer from stockholm, and now that he simply is not Sekai - he tried to emulate her and it doesn't fucking work, he's not thrilled about it, he's disgusted to be in that position. He apologises, he can't do it - Io has to reassure him multiple times. And from Io's perspective, it is not the same either. She anticipates this happening again and she wonders if he truly was serious about making her enjoy it.

All in all, again, it's totally understandable to want to miss this, or to think that what Akira did was the wrong call. But he's also a victim in what happened, he most certainly didn't anticipate going into Io's room, telling about how he's fucked up in the head from loving someone that raped him, then going into emulating said person because the girl in front of him considers him not having sex with her as him abandoning her as used goods after she revealed she was raped by her mother.

Akira goes home and can't sleep alone. This was tragic for Io, absolutely. But it was also for him. I have no point with all of this, I just felt that we could benefit from having a look at his side for all of this as well.

 

[Algorist]

I dunno... considering I had already missed 38 events before this update, 'going home' during Io's event was a no-brainer (I did see how it went through a quicksave, and Ew. Although it's well written.)

If this comes to bite me in the ass (i.e., a bad ending if you didn't stay true to Selebus' vision or something of the sort) later, so be it. I don't think that'll be the case, though.

I'm not concerned about the 'right' way to play the game, being mostly satisfied with my Sensei's path. And yes... I acknowledge it might be an illusion of choice. A taste of this was Bad Uncle being forced during a reset. But there are differences, and I'm more comfortable this way.

Anyway, please let there be more 'Ami flirting with girls' content for the love of HOPE. That Ami-Uta moment was really great. Hopefully, something more comes from it (I know it won't).

 

[Moonflare]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but if you lie up and down to a woman to sleep with them, you have committed a "rape."

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.

And while I think Niki is very down bad, I think she would not have fucked us if she new we were fucking Ami. But if you went "good uncle," her sister grinding on top of us topless would probably have done it.

That seems to be a misguided interpretation of the definition. By what you're saying, if someone has a girlfriend and has sex with another person, and that second person didn't know they had a girlfriend, it was rape. This makes no sense.

Secondly, there is no such thing as no manipulation. If you woo someone to have sex with them, that's manipulation. The presence of manipulation does not necessarily remove consent. Consent is something that an adult of a sane enough mind is able to give. Did Akira drug Haruka to have sex with her? no. Did he blackmail her? also no. Wasn't she an adult of sound enough mind? yes. Then it is consensual.

One could say it is a dick move to hit on a married woman. But at the end of the day it was her choice to have sex with him, he didn't force her. Every adult relationship in LiL was consensual. Every non-adult was not, simply because by law it isn't possible for a non-adult to give consent (which includes Nodoka).

As to everyone being supernaturally forced to want to have sex with Akira, well, that's possible. But if that's the case then there's really no point in talking about consent in the first place. What would it even matter if Akira manipulated Haruka and to which extent if there's a supernatural entity that robs her of her ability to choose not to have sex with him?

 

[gazgiz]

As to everyone being supernaturally forced to want to have sex with Akira, well, that's possible. But if that's the case then there's really no point in talking about consent in the first place. What would it even matter if Akira manipulated Haruka and to which extent if there's a supernatural entity that robs her of her ability to choose not to have sex with him?

While my other argument is weaker, and I think there is very much a difference between selling the best version of yourself (wooing) and declining to tell somebody that you're molesting her sister, I'm going to drop that line cuz it's the least interesting.

The above is the meat of what I think the game is getting at. Because, there very much is still consent to talk about in the above case. I'm leaving for a trip soon, so I don't have the time to do it right now, but how many times so far as the game tried to get you to stop playing? It tries to shame you to stop. It wonders why you won't stop. It begs you stop. It condemns you for not stopping. It warns you that we aren't close to hitting rock bottom of degradation yet.

That's not even mentioning all the "Ending" screens we get. Little off ramps for the player.

Maybe it's because I come from a performance background, but I think we often times overly use literary crit to talk about games but theater crit is just as applicable, if you consider "the player" as "the actor." In theater crit there is an idea of audience culpability. That the catharsis of the tragedy comes from the audiences participation in the acts committed on stage.

And that participation comes from their silence. They are free to interrupt and condemn the performance at any time.

I don't really know how else to read this game but a study in this mentality. We all downloaded this because we wanted to masturbate. Our introduction is our nieces vagina cutting us. We all choose to stay even though character after character tells us they feel like they are trapped.

That's what I think that line about "never having had consensual sex" is about.

 

[Detective Dc345]

Spoiler: Naked Pajama Party

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[Pedro4545454]

I don't really know how else to read this game but a study in this mentality. We all downloaded this because we wanted to masturbate. Our introduction is our nieces vagina cutting us. We all choose to stay even though character after character tells us they feel like they are trapped.

Just to make it clear that I didn't download this game for that reason, I already had basic knowledge about what this game was and the main reason I keep playing it is to see the end of the story from Akira,Maya, Yumi and now Io. At no point in this game after the first day did I see it as a porn game.

 

[Riolol]

Spoiler: Naked Pajama Party

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Next update looks great

 

[Moonflare]

While my other argument is weaker, and I think there is very much a difference between selling the best version of yourself (wooing) and declining to tell somebody that you're molesting her sister.

But the above is the meat of what I think the game is getting at. Because, there very much is still consent to talk about in the above case. I'm leaving for a trip soon, so I don't have the time to do it right now, but how many times so far as the game tried to get you to stop playing? It tries to shame you to stop. It wonders why you won't stop. It begs you stop. It condemns you for not stopping. It warns you that we aren't close to hitting rock bottom of degradation yet.

That's not even mentioning all the "Ending" screens we get. Little off ramps for the player.

Maybe it's because I come from a performance background, but I think we often times overly use literary crit to talk about games but theater crit is just as applicable, if you consider "the player" as "the actor." In theater crit there is an idea of audience culpability. That the catharsis of the tragedy comes from the audiences participation in the acts committed on stage.

And that participation comes from their silence. They are free to interrupt and condemn the performance at any time.

I don't really know how else to read this game but a study in this mentality. We all downloaded this because we wanted to masturbate. Our introduction is our nieces vagina cutting us. We all choose to stay even though character after character tells us they feel like they are trapped.

That's what I think that line about "never having had consensual sex" is about.

Well, that's a very valid perspective. But certainly one can read it in a multitude of ways. The game does tell you to stop, but that same game has people telling you that trials are necessary for one to deserve heaven. Himawari tells you that things have to happen in a certain order, and that she'll try to minimize your suffering, but it is necessary to some extent. Also, who is telling you to stop? And why? Cause in that same game there are many that tell you to actively ignore these messages.

By that same token, what's the alternative? Does the game stop if the players turn it off? Or are you simply choosing not to see where it goes? Does another user take control? Are you not what little remains of Akira's will and without you he'd go back to being a puppet? If a game was something else I think it would much rather be a book than theater. Your audience can indeed do whatever they want, and are only bound by what's expected of them as an audience. But a reader can only stop reading the story - as the gamer can only stop playing the game. The day Selebus harasses the people that pay him with "stop giving me money, you're responsible for this tragedy", then I'll probably agree with the culpability of his audience to such an extent.

As it is, the culpability of "stop playing the game" is confetti. Obviously Selebus doesn't want you to stop playing. The story will go on with or without you, this is a hollow provocation. You're not responsible for any of this because this is not an rpg, no one here is Akira because there isn't enough leeway for him to differ that much from what choices there are. There is only one true path in LiL, and the few choices you can make are "I choose to miss events". Well, is someone better than the other for shielding their eyes with their hands during a play? How is one culpable for wanting to see what the author has written?

I recognize your vision as valid, but there are others imo.

Just to make it clear that I didn't download this game for that reason, I already had basic knowledge about what this game was and the main reason I keep playing it is to see the end of the story from Akira,Maya, Yumi and now Io. At no point in this game after the first day did I see it as a porn game.

same.

 

[gazgiz]

Well, that's a very valid perspective. But certainly one can read it in a multitude of ways. The game does tell you to stop, but that same game has people telling you that trials are necessary for one to deserve heaven. Himawari tells you that things have to happen in a certain order, and that she'll try to minimize your suffering, but it is necessary to some extent. Also, who is telling you to stop? And why? Cause in that same game there are many that tell you to actively ignore these messages.

For the same reason nobody stops a play. It's a ritual. Everybody knows what's going to happen before they go in. If you think I'm negating that the trials are necessary, your 100% wrong. I believe the opposite, I believe there will be a catharsis. And that Sel's promises of deep long happy endings for each of the characters is real. But for you to get it, you have to join in. You have to participate in the act. You don't get to sit on the sidelines and justify the horror you partook in. You gotta understand the horror, and that you were willing to partake, so when you leave the theater, you know never to do it IRL as that is not a "safe" space for such moral experimentation.

I guess I'm arguing that I believe, all pulled from the nararative, that 100% that people who may have chosen the "good" thing each time have wrecked saves. That they will not get to experience the beatific endings, because they somehow thought themselves better than the actions the game forces on you.

By that same token, what's the alternative? Does the game stop if the players turns it off? Or are you simply choosing not to see where it goes? Does another user take control? Are you not what little remains of Akira's will and without you he'd go back to being a puppet?

No it stops. It ends. At least if I'm using my theater crit lens. Because "The Theater" or "The Game" is only existent in the act of playing. It's a ritual, and the instructions for the ritual are not the ritual, only The Ritual is the ritual. That's on our side of things. Based on game lore, and here I know you're more versed then me, I think it either just goes back to the endless loops that Maya Prime told us about. But I like to think that Akira gets to sleep.

If a game was something else I think it would be much rather be a book than theater. Your audience can indeed do whatever they want, and are only bound by what's expected of them as an audience. But a reader can only stop reading the story - as the gamer can only stop playing the game. The day Selebus harasses the people that pay him with "stop giving me money, you're responsible for this tragedy", then I'll probably agree with the culpability of his audience to such an extent.

Again, I think you misunderstood that it's all a Ritual. Selebus won't stop asking for money, because we're paying him for the experience. The game literally does not hide what it is from the top and what it's going to make us do. This isn't going to be the fun College Daze fucking your family. It's not going to sarcastically ask why you're fucking your family as something hot happens. It's going to really ask you that while bodies become grotesque as you are fucking them. It's only a trap and a trick if we didn't get our catharsis at the end.

And I think "players" have far more agency then book readers. Sel has given us choices, that a novel never could. Sel has always warned us that choices, unlike most games, have real (as in they brick your game) consequences. I compleatly understand players who say this isn't fun and a "dick move." But I think they are playing the wrong game, because this isn't supposed to be fun.

As it is, the culpability of "stop playing the game" is confetti. Obviously Selebus doesn't want you to stop playing. The story will go on with or without you, this is a hollow provocation. You're not responsible for any of this because this is not an rpg, no one here is Akira because there isn't enough leeway for him to differ that much from what choices there are. There is only one true path in LiL, and the few choices you can make are "I choose to miss events". Well, is someone better than the other for shielding their eyes with their hands during a play? How is one culpable for wanting to see what the author has written?

I recognize your vision as valid, but there are others imo.

I think I've covered most of this paragraph above. But there is one final point I think is really important to understanding this game: "How is one culpable for wanting to see what the author has written?"

This is the basic premises of every forbidden knowledge trope that has ever existed. This is why every single one of use would open up The King in Yellow if it was placed in our laps. Which is sort of the point of those stories.

 

[fdsasdf_p]

What makes me question my moral is that destroying Io felt like calmly driving off the cliff on purpose in slow motion, while Rin holding her nude right next to her face and confronting you honestly had me worried that I’ve fucked up big time.

I can stare right back at Io’s lifeless glare, but I really can’t quite do the same with Rin’s lightest disappointment, knowing that in the latter case I am 1000% fully guilty of ruining any chance I could have with her if things went sideways.

 

[Riolol]

What makes me question my moral is that destroying Io felt like calmly driving off the cliff on purpose in slow motion, while Rin holding her nude right next to her face and confronting you honestly had me worried that I’ve fucked up big time.

I can stare right back at Io’s lifeless glare, but I really can’t quite do the same with Rin’s lightest disappointment, knowing that in the latter case I am 1000% fully guilty of ruining any chance I could have with her if things went sideways.

I don't think you need to question your morals. Deep down you know it's fiction and the truth is Rin is just more likable than Io so betraying her feels worse.

 

[Moonflare]

I don't think you need to question your morals. Deep down you know it's fiction and the truth is Rin is just more likable than Io so betraying her feels worse.

Also more likely. I'm definitely not saying that one couldn't find themselves in a situation similar to stomachache, but the nude trade is much more relatable (?), I guess. Plus, Io's situation is you, the player, feeling wrong about letting something happen. Io herself is "fine" with it and reassures Akira many times over. Rin's situation has Rin blaming Akira. Io doesn't put herself in the situation as a victim, Rin does.

Totally normal response given that.

 

[peef]

Rin is just more likable than Io

This is it. I feel the opposite of how that guy feels because I like Io. I think I could handle similar levels of fucked up shit happening to any girl in the game besides Io.

 

[Pedro4545454]

Also more likely. I'm definitely not saying that one couldn't find themselves in a situation similar to stomachache, but the nude trade is much more relatable (?), I guess. Plus, Io's situation is you, the player, feeling wrong about letting something happen. Io herself is "fine" with it and reassures Akira many times over. Rin's situation has Rin blaming Akira. Io doesn't put herself in the situation as a victim, Rin does.

Totally normal response given that.

I don't know why, but the act of Io trying to calm Akira down made me feel really distressed, I could see that none of them were enjoying it, the only event that made me feel this agony was the "Maya's death" event. Which IN MY OPINION is still the event that caused me the most anguish.

 

[Moonflare]

I don't know why, but the act of Io trying to calm Akira down made me feel really distressed, I could see that none of them were enjoying it, the only event that made me feel this agony was the "Maya's death" event. Which IN MY OPINION is still the event that caused me the most anguish.

Maybe cause it feels bizarre/out of place? (it isn't if you stop to think about what's happening, but I mean at first glance). You know what that makes me think about though? Maya's relationship with Akira in the beginning. I wonder if she reassured him as well. Cause that may very well have been the case.

 

[Lux Perpetua]

All in all, again, it's totally understandable to want to miss this, or to think that what Akira did was the wrong call. But he's also a victim in what happened, he most certainly didn't anticipate going into Io's room, telling about how he's fucked up in the head from loving someone that raped him, then going into emulating said person because the girl in front of him considers him not having sex with her as him abandoning her as used goods after she revealed she was raped by her mother.

In my opinion, for a victim in this situation, he was enjoying the process a little too much.
I replayed this event with a fresh head, and now I see that it was an attempt on Akira's part to recreate the relationship between him and Sekai by reversing the roles, thus showing Io that both parties can find pleasure in such a relationship. It was more amusing to see him fail miserably.

I don't know, the first choice seems more logical in every way. By choosing to leave Io alone, Akira shows her that there is more to their relationship than animal lust on his part. At least that's how I interpreted her reaction.