Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.49.0] [Selebus]

[SmallsMalone]

This honestly sounds like Red Path Sensei, choosing her happiness over his own pleasure. I understand how the end result of Io green path feels very special and hard-earned , and maybe in the green path Sensei and Io have reached a deeper, higher mutual understanding; I felt that too and I very much enjoyed that. But that is never sufficient enough to say going green for Io is much better than going red. How is stopping the cycle of abuse early on not better?

If you're asking me which path is better as a viewer, then the answer is green. Absolutely. Missing out the latter half of Stomachache is a tremendous loss. Missing out two broken people finally reaching some agreement after their miserable attempt is another tremendous loss. However, if you're asking me which path is better for them or which path is better if you were trying to be in the shoes of one of them (which is what I am almost always at), then the answer is not green as long as nothing bad is happening in the red path as of right now. Again I don't buy the Selly punishing, the game general theming, or even missing something important in the future as reasonings. These reasonings are not diegetic and thus even if I as a viewer do care about them and do observe them, they can't validate the statement "thank god I let Sensei fucked Io" when they are not in-game and when nothing bad is happening in the red path as of right now to change my mind.



A continuation of me saying "as long as nothing bad is happening in the red path": I generally don't feel this "insidious, creeping anxiety", the "the more I trust this lie, the deeper the pain will be", or the "It will happen someday and the only question is how much will it hurt" in any red path versions to be really honest. Neither does rewatching Empty Heart Appeal or rewatching Theme Hospital give me the sense of looming evil or Sensei was lying, and I don't remember if there is anymore meaningful red variant line that can contribute.

It's not like Sensei was very obviously suppressing some dark urges to rape Io if he didn't previously have sex with her, or Io was constantly on the brink of breakdowns because she thought her value in his eyes has down to zero (she briefly did that in Empty Heart Appeal but the red path Sensei stopped her and things didn't go south). I found no variation in Even Winning Feels Bad; which red variant scene give you this feeling the strongest? I am starting to think that maybe I miss something in the red path and that in-game something is a strong driving force for everyone else to pick green that easily.

I don't really have any objections to what you're saying here. It's all well thought out and very reasonable for the perspectives it explores. The viewer and Sensei all have plenty of reason to think the red path is better for everyone. But that's the point isn't it?

Io's presence in the story has been dedicated to setting her up as a walking, breathing contradiction. Someone that desires to just be close with someone but her every action is an invitation to hurt her instead. Betraying that theming now would be a level of literary incompentence nearly impossible given the track record of the rest of the work. There's three layers that do the heavy lifting for me on green path being better for Io:

Spoiler: Genre savvy is a hell of a drug

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[jclark1337]

3. The meta layer of green path using a clash of expectations and genuine surprise to set up a revelation payoff while red path focuses on doubt and frailty to set the stage for deep betrayal.
---
Every fear and doubt she has for the world and her future is validated by the betrayal of the first person she allowed herself to trust, whether she was lying to herself or not.

Spoiler: Io cute

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[combige]

It's nice that the game is complex and thus allows complex opinions and complex reasonings, it's a pleasure for me to read them.
Though I haven't been present here while og Stomachache discussion or even read it, I have a smol reasoning to share as it was my first post about it here and having looked at bigger and deeper things about the game for awhile my vision of it haven't faded.
So, green Stomachache is a good player's trap.
Sel is an author of specific disposition toward players.
Thus, looking at the event a bit wider than characters and plot, the player's decision is of meaning and of assessment. Green is good? Yep, tons of justifications for it. But as for motivation behind this decision - it's compliance (with the plot, 'characters growth', 'greenness line' etc.), could even be assessed the same as local title of lilcordians' - sycophancy towards the author, the plotbearer. So, yes - going green is going canon, going right, going good. And as of the whole community - yes, of course. But personally? It's like differences between Western (primacy of person) and Eastern (primacy of society) worldviews, it's somewhat subtle, but looking in general - there it is.
So, if we are talking about Sel's inclination towards 'punishing' players for specific character traits behind the decisions they make, I think compliance may surely be one of those. Moreso considering philosophical depth and educative tendencies of the game. And even moreso, with Sel's trait in liking to have sadistic joy in toying with person's (character's) freedom of will deprivation, fun in illusion of free choice as in 'This Town Has Two Halves' or the one with Molly, somewhat his bruised ego's god's complex.
And I see the detail to prove it - you technically can't go red on Stomachache as it becomes 'different' event in such case.

 

[Mansy_mans]

Hello,
I've just started the game and so far, I'm really enjoying it. The story, the characters (most of them), and the lore surrounding the world and the alien war are all very exciting to me. The writing is excellent, and I'm eager to learn more about the characters, especially the main character.
However, I do feel that the story progression is a bit slow at the beginning. I understand it's still early on, but I'm wondering if the story will become more engaging as it goes on and if there will be more dramatic moments. While I enjoy the character conversations, I’m hoping for some more dynamic and exciting events—nothing lewd, just moments that move the plot forward and bring more action to the story.

 

[Reiyayru]

Having read all the posts about Stomachache all I can say is, Green path purist really seem to get upset if you don't play the game how they played it, obvious I know but damn feels like it needs to be pointed out.

I've made a couple posts about the event and why I went red path for it but as I read everyone's posts I started thinking more on it and it wasn't just a "moral" high ground that made me choose it, when the event happened and I chose the green path initially I felt pulled out of the story, not because I felt bad or grossed out (That came a bit after) but I remember watching the beginning of the event and the story losing me, it didn't make sense as a narrative to me, it felt out of place for where Sensei was in the story and his mindset at the time on top of how he had been interacting and treating Io. It has been the only time in this whole game where I paused because I felt a disconnect.

There are people who are calling it a master class and piece and what not but I don't agree, it felt...forced and disjointed, janky in a way. I've been green path this whole game, no matter the decision I went green cause every single time no matter the moral behind it, it felt like it fit, like a piece of the puzzle that is LiL, Stomachache didn't. So far I have not regretted my choice, MY choice, to do the red path of stomachache seeing the following events, we don't know where the story for her is going so for everyone rubbing their hands together salivating at the "punshiment" Sel will inflict on those who went red path with Io and making what looks like gymastic leaps of logic to discredit the red path (I have yet to feel or see any sort of anxienty or inevidable heel turn where he turns into a monster and breaks Io) You sound deluded to me.

I had a stray thought and what would be hilarious to me if Sel pulled a "Ha, Gotcha Bitch" and have one of her future events switch the path of Stomachache, turning the green path red and red path green in a statement of you are so focus chasing the 'right' path that you would do anything and everything to stay on it, cause chaos and carnage all around discord and forums for some convaluded reason or another. Maybe a statement on moral high ground and the player as a person, monsters and something something. Actually if that did happen (I know it's probably never gonna but) I would fly to these forums just to see the reaction and result.

 

[shmurfer]

However, I do feel that the story progression is a bit slow at the beginning. I understand it's still early on, but I'm wondering if the story will become more engaging as it goes on and if there will be more dramatic moments. While I enjoy the character conversations, I’m hoping for some more dynamic and exciting events—nothing lewd, just moments that move the plot forward and bring more action to the story.

If you're after 'action' it's not going to happen. It's a VN, not a FPS or some other game hidden in a VN. You will read, you will read a lot, and for all the words in probably the longest VN there is, you might get to make 30 choices or so (Not counting actual menuing to do your daily schedule / puzzle solving) There's also a lot of pretentious fluff surrounding events (intro and outtro text) that doesn't really go away, but the actual story within them is so worth working through that.

If you're after 'drama' you'll be well fed. Chapter 1 is slow compared to the rest of the game, because the game seems like a standard harem game to you. If you find the first happy event and aren't disgusted enough to reject the game like the other person did yesterday, you will eventually find the game can make you feel in such ways that you'd feel embarassed to admit to other people who aren't online. (like really, stopping the game and crying for a while because something bad happened to a fictional character??? are you 5?)

I'd highly recommend getting the guide mod before you make a choice that makes you miss events. If you don't like the grinding aspects of the game there is a autovn mod which seemed competent based on the one person I know who ran a complete playthrough using it. URM can let you see dialogue choices you're missing out on, and makes it easy to edit variables and other features that I don't use, but you need to show some restraint using it. Been several people breaking their saves because they can't stop clicking everything.

 

[derekthered56]

It's weird that so many people are talking about red path getting punished with a possessed Akira or something. Red path Io isn't getting her own separate plotline; she's going to follow green path Io with some minor dialogue changes, just like every other red path has done so far. Green path will be the one getting extra events, which if anything means they'll be "punished" with more bad things happening, like more uncomfortable sex scenes or Uta finding out. Green path might lead to a cathartic good end for Io, but that's like 12 years down the line.

 

[Budoop]

I was not expecting such a stink to be raised over this

 

[Fake Rabi ~]

where can i get the fanfest files? i want to have the tsukasa one...

 

[SmallsMalone]

Spoiler: Io cute

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I have to keep this reply brief but I have the time to highlight why Red vs. Green have a tendency to talk past each other, imo. It's heavily based on the readers relationship with anxiety and white lies.

Spoiler: On This Reader's Psychology

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

So yeah, my thoughts on Io path are practically 100% projection. I often throw myself in harm's way in pursuit of the truth, erego I respect that desire in her character. I find white lies and thin hope to be sickening and patronizing, erego when I think she's caught up in that I feel immense dread. I prefer to rip the bandaid so given a choice, I prefer the path that uses pain to avoid fear rather than the path that uses hope to avoid pain.

To me, hope is not salvation. It's a threat. For every hope I try to hold onto it creates twice as much fear.

For a brain like mine, hope is poison and truth is the only antidote. You are not wrong if you prefer red path, it just means you can trust in something fragile without it destroying you.

I'm not convinced Io could do the same.

 

[Moonflare]

I'm wondering if the story will become more engaging as it goes on and if there will be more dramatic moments.

Yes. The beginning of the game (first few updates, but, to an extent, the entire first chapter) is a slow burn, where Selebus gives you a "blank slate" protagonist whose goal is to fuck teenagers in a made up world without consequences. It's shallow on purpose.

As you advance, you discover more and more about the true nature of this "city" and about the protagonist. What seemed shallow was actually hinting at a lot of complexity. The replay value is off the charts. The dramatic moments come from what's being revealed being contrasted with what he's been doing, and what (and why) he can't help but do. Add in a few plot twists and the constant but paced revelations and that's where the dramatic moments will come from.

Do not play this game without the guide mod though. And everytime time you arrive at a "puzzle", use the puzzle guide as well.

 

[Detective Dc345]

where can i get the fanfest files? i want to have the tsukasa one...

Look for Fire Lord Zuko's post for the last day of the FF. It should have all the content in it.

 

[Moonflare]

Green path purist really seem to get upset if you don't play the game how they played it.

I feel like you may be projecting. If that's the impression you got from the thread, let me reiterate for the friends I can safely represent on this matter that we couldn't care less. Obviously that doesn't account for everyone here, but surely for the larger (and saner) part.

Selebus is pretty adamant on "make of this game what you will", and it will not be some random group of people on a thread he doesn't even like that will try to tell you otherwise. Anyone can play however they want. More power to them.

Spoiler: further thoughts

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

It is unfortunate that so many people felt attacked as if we were telling that they were wrong in playing however they want. That was not our intention. Hopefully, we can move on from this with the mutual understanding that saying that the green path is the truer story doesn't equate to saying that one is wrong by choosing to miss events.

 

[LoveRedHairedGirl]

Green path "purists", as you say, are less about inflicting pain on the red path players, and much more about seeing their suffering being justified by Akira growing and being able to fulfill what Himawari said so long ago:

WRONG. It's about inflicting pain on myself!

 

[gryphon100]

Hello,
I've just started the game and so far, I'm really enjoying it. The story, the characters (most of them), and the lore surrounding the world and the alien war are all very exciting to me. The writing is excellent, and I'm eager to learn more about the characters, especially the main character.
However, I do feel that the story progression is a bit slow at the beginning. I understand it's still early on, but I'm wondering if the story will become more engaging as it goes on and if there will be more dramatic moments. While I enjoy the character conversations, I’m hoping for some more dynamic and exciting events—nothing lewd, just moments that move the plot forward and bring more action to the story.

I assume by early on means that you've just gotten past the first half of Chapter 1, and if so, just keep playing. You'll quickly figure out why people, including me, adore this game so much. Once you reach Chapter 2, you're probably going to be in this for the long haul.

 

[Detective Dc345]

Spoiler: In Haruka's Mind

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[jclark1337]

I was not expecting such a stink to be raised over this

I think the discussion has been mostly respectful and interesting for the most part, some of us are trolls and like stirring the pot a bit but I don't think they mean it personally.

Hello,
I've just started the game and so far, I'm really enjoying it. The story, the characters (most of them), and the lore surrounding the world and the alien war are all very exciting to me. The writing is excellent, and I'm eager to learn more about the characters, especially the main character.
However, I do feel that the story progression is a bit slow at the beginning. I understand it's still early on, but I'm wondering if the story will become more engaging as it goes on and if there will be more dramatic moments. While I enjoy the character conversations, I’m hoping for some more dynamic and exciting events—nothing lewd, just moments that move the plot forward and bring more action to the story.

There is a LOT of reading and buildup but the the dramatic moments are absolutely worth it imo. I recommend the Guide mod 1000% it will help solve a lot of potential headaches down the line when figuring out where tf to go next or getting stuck.

 

[derekthered56]

I feel like you may be projecting. If that's the impression you got from the thread, let me reiterate for the friends I can safely represent on this matter that we couldn't care less. Obviously that doesn't account for everyone here, but surely for the larger (and saner) part.

It wasn't you, but this whole tangent did get started by someone calling all Red Pathers "pussies".

Spoiler: further thoughts

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Was that narration the indisputable word of Sel, or one of the many in-game characters that think growth means fully embracing the role of a predator? I'm actually quite bad at identifying narrators.

So far Green Path Akira isn't any wiser or stronger than Red Path Akira; he's actually even less capable of resisting temptation. Choosing to get closer to Chinami and Tsukasa leads to him intentionally trying to "ruin" Tsukasa while admitting that he hasn't learned anything from his mistakes.
I think ultimately the green path will lead to growth, but it's not because repeatedly making bad choices somehow makes you more capable of not making bad choices. It's because the world is run by eldritch rape gods that will prematurely end things if Akira doesn't make enough bad choices. Things have to happen in a certain order to avoid that happening.

 

[SlidingSubject]

So far Green Path Akira isn't any wiser or stronger than Red Path Akira; he's actually even less capable of resisting temptation. Choosing to get closer to Chinami and Tsukasa leads to him intentionally trying to "ruin" Tsukasa while admitting that he hasn't learned anything from his mistakes.

I think it's because decisions don't really matter, though they actually do.

Spoiler: Despite everything

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

The only thing those decisions change is the perception of you, be it from others or from yourself, but they don't change what you are.

Hello,
I've just started the game and so far, I'm really enjoying it. The story, the characters (most of them), and the lore surrounding the world and the alien war are all very exciting to me. The writing is excellent, and I'm eager to learn more about the characters, especially the main character.
However, I do feel that the story progression is a bit slow at the beginning. I understand it's still early on, but I'm wondering if the story will become more engaging as it goes on and if there will be more dramatic moments. While I enjoy the character conversations, I’m hoping for some more dynamic and exciting events—nothing lewd, just moments that move the plot forward and bring more action to the story.

As mentioned by others, the first chapter is a slow burn. It sets up the stage, though it also has its fast-paced and plot relevant moments, but you probably won't notice the latter until you do a replay after you catch up. That said, I recommend that you make a pure playthrough at first (as in, only checking the answers for puzzles in the first post) and not interact much with the thread, because sometimes spoiler discussion is unmarked.

 

[Moonflare]

Spoiler: In Haruka's Mind

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: easter eggs?

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: my reaction

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.