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tehlemon

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2021
1,224
1,563
Me giving it a lot of meaning, or you giving it far less than it deserves?
People who worked for their money will not just go and throw that money at the wind.
So, they must like what they get..
People do that all the time with subscription services lol

And like Teize said, how much money you make is not at all representative with the best quality product. If you actually believe that, you're either incredibly young, or completely oblivious. This is doubly so when your entire industry works off initial popularity.
 
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GuiltyElation

Newbie
Mar 31, 2021
53
103
Some of those people have given Inno $1000+ for this game. How many of them would buy the game if they had to actually pay that in a single payment?
Honestly that's one thing I really hate about the Patreon/Subscribestar model used for Western titles, it incentivizes devs to drag out development and be as lazy as possible, while people forget how much money they've actually paid for these sparse updates ($10 a month slips by unnoticed, but adds up quickly).

It's not like the traditional "pay $x for the game" model doesn't work; despite being easily pirateable, Shimogod has made almost half a million USD from Celesphonia alone AFTER DlSite's cut, for example. (47k copies sold, 1870 Yen of which the dev gets ~1100JPY=10USD). Sure, I'm using one of the most popular games/successful devs as an example, but taking a look at the numbers on DlSite and it becomes apparent pretty quickly that Inno's income isn't that ludicrous.

The dream solution would be for Steam to be a more practical way of distributing NSFW games, but we all know that's not happening anytime soon :rolleyes:
 
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Sasquatch421

Newbie
Nov 10, 2017
61
135
Hm. Well, if i was in her shoes i'd want for this job to last forever too. :giggle: :coffee:
But more importantly, if all those people continue to pay her then that means they must see something in her work?
They must think that it is worth the money?
Otherwise, why would they pay?
High hopes? How much slower would things go if Inno ended up needing to get another source of income if her sub nosedived?

Honestly I do give money to a couple of people, and one is a slower dev.... Well a couple are slower developers....
 
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SheepPun

Newbie
Mar 30, 2021
39
56
I only really watch the game from a distance, the sort of 'check in every couple months to see if an update came out then forget about it' but god damn, seeing Inno finally openly admit she's falling victim to the trap of feature creep and seems to have have no intention of trying to reign herself in made a part of me shrivel up and die.

It's understandable because it's really easy to do this, creator or not. But I remember in the ~before times~ when comments were allowed on her blog posts some of the more reasonable critical comments warned her of this. Then again, this is the internet so the reasonable comments got drowned out by squabbles in the comment sections so /shrugs
 
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Carl0sDanger

Active Member
May 22, 2020
546
818
... it incentivizes devs to drag out development and be as lazy as possible ...
While I would agree with this in the case of a dev who was working on a game with a projected "final" version (ie. once it's done, the money stops), that's not the stated development model of this game. The idea with this game is allegedly to get to v 1.0 (where the main quest is completed) and then to add side content indefinitely. Hard Times in Hornstown (despite being a very different game in many respects) is a good example of this model: there's a core story to play through, but heaps of optional side content with more being added regularly.

Most importantly, the optional side content is voted on by supporters (ie. not rando Discord members), giving a tangible benefit for supporting the game.

My point is that the subscription model and development roadmap actually incentivise Inno finishing a playable main quest. We have to look elsewhere to explain the lack of progress.
 

Keldin

Member
Jun 7, 2017
261
352
those reviews doe. I've seen Amazon products with less fake reviews. Also we need a thread or something that is a collected list of Devs that are either scams, or more in this case just really unreliable.

Anyways I've seen mentions of different forks and such done by modders, anyone know if any of those actually went anywhere?
 

♍VoidTraveler

Forum Fanatic
Apr 14, 2021
5,793
15,468
we need a thread or something that is a collected list of Devs that are either scams, or more in this case just really unreliable.
Fantastic idea.
But that will require some maintenance and shit, of the constant type.
I doubt just anyone will want that kind of pain in the ass on their plate.
Not to mention that it'll have to be someone trustworthy.
 

BaloneyAmone

Active Member
Mar 3, 2021
605
1,142
those reviews doe. I've seen Amazon products with less fake reviews. Also we need a thread or something that is a collected list of Devs that are either scams, or more in this case just really unreliable.
I wouldn't be for this idea. That thread would devolve into a ********* hateboner circlejerk in record time, however deserved any shunned names on the list, and more than likely end up poisoning the whole forum in the process.
It's best to leave any dev-bashing to the threads of their games.
 

alfabb

Newbie
Oct 11, 2018
75
175
those reviews doe. I've seen Amazon products with less fake reviews. Also we need a thread or something that is a collected list of Devs that are either scams, or more in this case just really unreliable.

Anyways I've seen mentions of different forks and such done by modders, anyone know if any of those actually went anywhere?
To be honest, without knowing the story (and wo has the patience to read through 500 pages... but the release date might be a big hint) i would rate it "5/5 keep up the good work" myself.
 
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Keldin

Member
Jun 7, 2017
261
352
I wouldn't be for this idea. That thread would devolve into a ********* hateboner circlejerk in record time, however deserved any shunned names on the list, and more than likely end up poisoning the whole forum in the process.
It's best to leave any dev-bashing to the threads of their games.
Point. There's also a number of other alternatives, just having a Wiki detailing history of projects would help, and not just for minimizing shitting on devs but also for Devs and projects that go above and beyond. Karryn's Prison, Roundscape Adorevia, Caliross to name a few.

Buuut as mentioned that and others all require effort most won't bother or care enough about to do.

Also I feel that I should point out that there isn't much to poison on this site. It's pretty much Youtube Comment Section levels of trash almost everywhere in here, not at all helped by the Summertime surge of kids signing up for deh pronz except because of Covid that surge is year-round instead of just the beginning of Summer

Also it'd need a loooot more steps then one "Shitty Devs" thread to get even a fraction of KiwiFarm's shittery levels :V
 
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Harel

Newbie
Jun 19, 2018
63
119
Point. There's also a number of other alternatives, just having a Wiki detailing history of projects would help, and not just for minimizing shitting on devs but also for Devs and projects that go above and beyond. Karryn's Prison, Roundscape Adorevia, Caliross to name a few.

Buuut as mentioned that and others all require effort most won't bother or care enough about to do.

Also I feel that I should point out that there isn't much to poison on this site. It's pretty much Youtube Comment Section levels of trash almost everywhere in here, not at all helped by the Summertime surge of kids signing up for deh pronz except because of Covid that surge is year-round instead of just the beginning of Summer

Also it'd need a loooot more steps then one "Shitty Devs" thread to get even a fraction of KiwiFarm's shittery levels :V
Take care. 'This looks like a good idea' can go so very badly; it happens way too often. I'd recommend not handwaving the difficulties and pitfalls, but actively seeking them out to try to mitigate the damage if you proceed with this.

Honestly, I'm against the idea of a gatekeeping thread. Reviews and the threads themselves tell the story fairly well, and the objectivity required to curate such a thread is likely beyond the vast majority of folks. We humans are too biased. I suggest just leaving a review if you like the work, or if you have problems with it. The current system works reasonably well, with what appears to be only minor drama.
 

Sarkath

Active Member
Sep 8, 2019
533
909
Point. There's also a number of other alternatives, just having a Wiki detailing history of projects would help, and not just for minimizing shitting on devs but also for Devs and projects that go above and beyond. Karryn's Prison, Roundscape Adorevia, Caliross to name a few.
I think recognizing projects that go above and beyond is a better approach in general. Shitting on bad projects can be fun (and let's be real: I'm guilty as charged, your honor!), but I've found that negativity often begets negativity (often from unexpected sources), and sometimes garbage is best cast aside and ignored while the diamonds should be allowed to shine. Look at how many times we had a new person come into this very thread and start throwing flames because their first introduction to this slice of the F95 community was seeing people slagging off the developer of their new favorite game. Now imagine that on a broader scale.

I'm a little leery about using project history as a metric as well. Some projects, such as Minotaur Hotel, are only updated a couple times a year, but the individual updates are massive. Considering how easy it is to pad out a changelog it's kind of hard to treat it as useful data. If you start introducing an editorial spin on it, it stops being data and suddenly becomes a review.
 

Keldin

Member
Jun 7, 2017
261
352
I think recognizing projects that go above and beyond is a better approach in general. Shitting on bad projects can be fun (and let's be real: I'm guilty as charged, your honor!), but I've found that negativity often begets negativity (often from unexpected sources), and sometimes garbage is best cast aside and ignored while the diamonds should be allowed to shine. Look at how many times we had a new person come into this very thread and start throwing flames because their first introduction to this slice of the F95 community was seeing people slagging off the developer of their new favorite game. Now imagine that on a broader scale.
We already have that on a broader scale though. At a certain point you can't poison the well because all there is is poison. Barely any discussion actually happens in most threads, half a dozen "why does this thing marked with the thing I don't like have the thing I don't like", "savez ploz", circle jerks in both directions about Machine translation, same cycle of the same conversation as helpfully evidenced by this thread, so on and so forth.

Like sometimes we get genuine good threads that maintain a not-Youtube-cancer level, like in karyyn's Prison where game mechanics and .json editing and such are discussed in what passes for civility on the net. Those are few and far between, and have already held up against the tides of the rest of the site's standard interactions and users.
I'm a little leery about using project history as a metric as well. Some projects, such as Minotaur Hotel, are only updated a couple times a year, but the individual updates are massive. Considering how easy it is to pad out a changelog it's kind of hard to treat it as useful data. If you start introducing an editorial spin on it, it stops being data and suddenly becomes a review.
I..never specified quality based on update speed and amounts of updates? Roundscape has long gaps and then pretty sizeable content drops, Karryn's prison has major content drops every few months with small bugfixes here and there in the interim, Caliross has been in development for several years but it has been steadily worked on and updated and so on.

A wiki could feasibly work out with a large enough community to self-moderate it, and just detailing the development process and history is entirely possible with out devolving into completely biased content


I mean you probably have a better chance of winning 10 back-to-back lottos then that ever coming to fruition but I didn't actually think a thread collating all the "questionable" devs would ever actually happen, let alone any of the even more unlikely suggestions.

These are just more of thought-exercises then anything else cuz I'm having a particulraly boring night :V
 
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Sarkath

Active Member
Sep 8, 2019
533
909
We already have that on a broader scale though. At a certain point you can't poison the well because all there is is poison. Barely any discussion actually happens in most threads, half a dozen "why does this thing marked with the thing I don't like have the thing I don't like", "savez ploz", circle jerks in both directions about Machine translation, same cycle of the same conversation as helpfully evidenced by this thread, so on and so forth.
Hah! Yeah, fair point. :p

Like sometimes we get genuine good threads that maintain a not-Youtube-cancer level, like in karyyn's Prison where game mechanics and .json editing and such are discussed in what passes for civility on the net. Those are few and far between, and have already held up against the tides of the rest of the site's standard interactions and users.
It kind of seems like the smaller and/or more niche the game, the higher the quality of the thread (though that's largely true of the Internet as a whole).

I..never specified quality based on update speed and amounts of updates? Roundscape has long gaps and then pretty sizeable content drops, Karryn's prison has major content drops every few months with small bugfixes here and there in the interim, Caliross has been in development for several years but it has been steadily worked on and updated and so on.
Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that you did. I just meant to say that documenting a game's history would likely either be a collection of neutral facts of dubious usefulness or biased to the point of essentially being a review. Pretty much just me being cynical, lol

It really depends on how well the hypothetical wiki is moderated, as well as how many people contribute to it.

I mean you probably have a better chance of winning 10 back-to-back lottos then that ever coming to fruition but I didn't actually think a thread collating all the "questionable" devs would ever actually happen, let alone any of the even more unlikely suggestions.

These are just more of thought-exercises then anything else cuz I'm having a particulraly boring night :V
I do think that having some sort of developer/project spotlight (unless there already is one? I don't venture out of individual game threads at all) is a fantastic idea.

Honestly, one of the main things that drove me to this site in the first place is its utility as a discovery service. Patreon projects tend to be pretty lax at ensuring that their public releases are representative of what they're actually selling. Having an additional layer of curation on top of that would trim off quite a bit of fat.
 
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PussyPassAnon

Member
Dec 18, 2018
186
271
Hm. Well, if i was in her shoes i'd want for this job to last forever too.
It's like you're looking right at the problem, but you can't tie the the last part of the equation together due to whatever personal bias you have.

Yes. If you were in their shoes, of course you'd like the job to last forever. THEREFORE, why not make it last forever?
And now you know why the game hasn't progressed worth a crap in the last 5 years.

There's something to be said about money and women, but I won't go that far. Anyone above the age of 25 who's had a girlfriend (or at least hung around friends who had girlfriends) can fill in that blank.
 

alfabb

Newbie
Oct 11, 2018
75
175
It's like you're looking right at the problem, but you can't tie the the last part of the equation together due to whatever personal bias you have.

Yes. If you were in their shoes, of course you'd like the job to last forever. THEREFORE, why not make it last forever?
And now you know why the game hasn't progressed worth a crap in the last 5 years.

There's something to be said about money and women, but I won't go that far. Anyone above the age of 25 who's had a girlfriend (or at least hung around friends who had girlfriends) can fill in that blank.
I think the explanation that it's a simple scamtreon or Scamstarter is unlickely, else it would have to be the most luckiest and most incompetently managed scam ever. For three simple reasons:
1. Such scams love to have hard to dispute excuses. If no proper content was added they want to sit behind walls of "Added very complicated behind the scenes coding to make development faster/make specific content possible etc.". Liliths throne being open source can't do that. Everyone can see if a months work consists of 3 lines of code.
2. Such scams often give real incentives to patreon subs. Be it early access or scenes or the damn game itself. Liliths throne is again open source, major updates are released to anyone, and the only hurdle to minor updates is installing the JDK.
3. Money comes before anything resembling morals or pride. If Patreon orders you to remove incest, or rape, or an image showing Trotzky, you fucking do that. Bonus points for saying to your fans that you might consider changing sites "In the forseeable future" eg. the heat death of the universe. Innoxia did jump ship immeditaliy instead of censoring the game.

I personally believe it's a creative or project burnout and Innoxia is either lying to herself or to the consumers about her ability/motivation to finish the game.
 

Dr.Feelgood

Member
Sep 21, 2018
182
227
Point. There's also a number of other alternatives, just having a Wiki detailing history of projects would help, and not just for minimizing shitting on devs but also for Devs and projects that go above and beyond. Karryn's Prison, Roundscape Adorevia, Caliross to name a few.

Buuut as mentioned that and others all require effort most won't bother or care enough about to do.
Hell, just look at the official Lilith's Throne wiki. That thing hasn't been updated in years. The only way a 'point tracker' type of system for monitoring the shady practices of certain devs could exist is if someone is devoted enough to comb through their history and find them. Do we really want to trust the word of someone that uses Twitter tactics to get what they wanted?

Still, a sort of 'buyer beware' system does sound nice. If only the reviews could be a bit more detailed to reflect that.
 
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4.10 star(s) 123 Votes