Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.11.3 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[e-disfunction]

You played this game before, right? Or literally any other RPG? I have the strong feeling you are trying to pull my non-existent leg here

Seriously, I'm not pulling your tail, Snek, and I understand your concerns. I hope this explanation will help you. (And thank you for voicing your concerns and trusting me to answer. )

Yes,
* I've played a few cRPGs--computer "RPGs" where the player doesn't actually have a rôle or any need to act within a character--but I have no idea why anyone (except marketers) would ever call these rôle-playing games because they just aren't.
* and I've played many RPGs--real ones, on table-tops, with dice, real books, and other people present & participating--but not since the mid-1990s, so I have missed the last 2 to 2½ generations of RPG enculturation and language development.
* and although many people have used some of the words you did, I have understood the words' sentiment enough to understand what the person meant (but not the words, alas).

Does this (and my reactions, below, to Amarok909) explain my nearly-overwhelming ignorance of RPG-speak so you believe that I am/was serious?
e-d

Okay, I'm just gonna do this as a list for ease of reading. Since you don't seem to know the terminology, I'll cover it all from the basics

Thank you, Amarok909. (On behalf of myself and all the others here who didn't know.)

(Below, I will snip stuff that isn't important for my questions and then have some replies after your words.)

1. Crits, short for critical attacks, are attacks that do more damage than normal. These originated in tabletop role playing games like dungeons and dragons (as far as I know)...
   ... Since a critical attack requires that you do the attack three times in one turn, you only can apply critical damage with two arms. Any more, and you can only do it once (2 AP/3 spent or 3 AP/3 spent), hence 'loss of crit'
   
   
2. A build, is the type of character you're playing, this also comes from RPGs. In the perk tree in your phone, you will notice three differently colored 'trees'. A 'caster build' will focus on filling out the right most purple tree, which focuses on casting magical spells, hence the name ...
   
   
3. the other 'main builds', are the seducer and the brawler ...
4. the 'OwObservant' trait is a nickname for the 'Observant trait', which can be found near the top of the physical perk tree. This comes from the peak form of comedy known as "Furry Humor" ...
   
   
5. similar traits, not sure exactly...
   
   
6. There really isn't a manual for this, all of these concepts get passed on by gamer oral tradition (forums, chatrooms, and older siblings). Google/Search engine of choice is a great starting place, and you may be able to find more on the Lilith's Throne wiki, but here is as good a place as any to ask.

Hope this helps

1. When I played RPGs, "crits" was never used as a word just for attacks because it would have been too ambiguous. There were "critical-": -attacks, -hits, -misses, -successes, -fails, -injuries, and -etc., on top of just plain "saving throws".
Furthermore, each world, genre, and "game engine" had different names for their differing "critical" systems if there was a system! (Example: D&D and AD&D got standardized "critical" rules after most other games because of decade-long game-play and legal copyright/ownership debates. The compnay 'Wizards of the Coast' was almost new when I stopped playing regularly ... )

2. "Build" came after my time, too, once computers were used by "Gen Y" (much larger than the "real Gen X") and the idea of creating individual character rôles started to disappear in favour of just rolling dice: when D&D went into 3rd Edition and other games also moved to standardized systems for use across all genres and chronologies.
In my defence, I can't find anywhere in Lilith's Throne where "build" is used in reference to the Perk Tree or character types! I suspect this phrase is used only by gamers talking in forums about the game ...

3. And this is the first time I've heard and mention of any "caster, seducer, brawler" in LT--especially "builds" named Caster, Seducer, or Brawler. Where in the game are these?

4. "OwObservant" might come from Silly Mode, then ; and OOPS! I didn't see that certain, chosen perks were entitled as "Traits" and not perks! (Aside: They are in a "Perk Tree" and are perquisites you can purchase, or not ... so why aren't they called perks? )
What Where Umm ... a peak form of comedy called "Furry Humor"?

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doesn't even know what you're talking about, here. Is it defined somewhere? (And does the def'n come with examples?)

5. Solved with "4.", above.

6. Thank you, I understand now. And thank you for your patience and effort, too.
(My probably-wrong suspicion is that many of these words derived from "computer-gamer" oral tradition that then spread elsewhere, as RPGs and computer game programmers have had a lot of shared history since the 1990s and also RPGers would probably still be fighting about how they should be used and therefore couldn't possibly be in public use, yet. )

Thank you Snek & Amarok!
e-d

 

[TerumiNin]

There's cheat weapons in the game. Type 'buggy', go to the spawn menu and click the blank space underneath 'ranged' for a selection of weapons that deal up to 57,750 damage. You can also use that menu to level yourself up if you don't want to grind.

 

[IvoryOwl]

e-disfunction
So, in other words, you're basically an old-timer who hasn't updated their knowledge and terminology of games - be they tabletop or digital - since the mid 90's. That explains a lot. Snek was probably surprised because, for the vast majority of gamers who were born in the 80's and onwards, a lot of these terms are basically "universal" - everyone knows them and their meaning, even if they don't know the rules/specifications of the game in question. It's like saying "Ford" - you don't need to think hard to recognize the car brand when you hear it.

RPGs have changed a lot since the mid 90's. While many titles are based on or inspired by ye old tabletop RPGs, a lot of them have deviated in their own ways too. Many modern RPGs still use some of the core mechanics and foundations of their forefathers but slightly dumbed down to make gaming more straightforward and streamlined. Using your example of critical; attacks, hits, misses, successes, failures, injuries, etc. When we say "crits" in modern parlance we usually mean three things (and it can be one or all of them together): bonus damage, how often it procs/activates, and how much damage the crit does. Critical hit damage = bonus damage; Critical rate = how often it procs; Critical multiplier = how much damage the crit does. (As you can see, it's much simpler to keep track of.) If I'm not mistaken, Lilith's Throne has all three of these.

When we say "builds" it can be a reference to the character role but there's more to it than just that. Equipment, stats, and abilities/traits/perks also have a say on your "build". It a sense, its kinda like a specialization. Imagine you rolled a Ranger but decided to specialize in a sub-role called the Trapper - you need the right equipment, stats and abilities to become one. That's your build. Basically, it's your role but also what defines you inside said role.

Some RPGs force you into specific character roles, very much like pre-defined spreadsheets - you can only be this specific/generic warrior/mage/rogue. While other games opt to give their players more freedom to build their character as they see fit. In Lilith's Throne, there's no reference to "classes" but there are thematic choices that fit a particular playstyle/role. If you look at the perk tree in-game, you can see it is divided by three different thematics - the left-most one is the "Warrior" (Physical damage + physical resistance), the middle one is the "Seducer" (Lust-based abilities and damage) and the right-most is the "Caster" (Spell/Magic/Elemental oriented stuff). The game doesn't call them such, but we do. Labeling helps us identify what we're talking about and allows other people to understand it.

When the game doesn't tell you outright -what- you are, you can always use good old-fashioned correlation. Since modern RPGs are still based on the classics after all, all you have to do is ask yourself - does this character feel like they fit the warrior thematic, mage or -insert class here-? And you just go from there.

The OwO (also written as UwU) is basically an emoji face. Remember making smiley faces with text characters? :-D =P ^_^ -- and the such? Well, OwO is meant to be an anime, cutesy face. With a cat smile. You kind of need to use your imagination to see it. OwObservant is a play word on observant, using a meme (memes are basically internet humor gone viral/trendy. They can be images or text.)

 

[e-disfunction]

e-disfunction
So, in other words, you're basically an old-timer who hasn't updated their knowledge and terminology of games - be they tabletop or digital - since the mid 90's. That explains a lot. Snek was probably surprised because, for the vast majority of gamers who were born in the 80's and onwards, a lot of these terms are basically "universal" ...

Heck, I remember when "thunking" meant something: "When creating any emulator, you must include the bugs of the program being emulated, otherwise nothing will run in the emulator because, who'da thunk it?"
this:

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NOT this:

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e-disfunction
Character roles are still more or less the same as in classic DnD - you have the standard warrior, rogue, mage, etc. It's basically a pre-defined spreadsheet - you can't deviate much from it. But some RPGs give you the freedom to build your character as you set fit - to set their "role".

I don't quite know what you mean ... Which particular "classic DnD" are you referring to? Something that came in a white or pink box that focused on character rôles in high fantasy? Or something from a compiled, single book, that focused on dice rolls?

e-disfunction
Remember making smiley faces with text characters? :-D =P ^_^ -- and the such? Well, OwO is meant to be an anime, cutesy face. With a cat smile.

So we've come full circle--text smileys used to mimic emojis. That's the new-fangled recursion, is it?

And I thought the apex of ASCII art was computer cows!!!

e-d

 

[can'ttakemyeyesoffyou]

Seriously, I'm not pulling your tail, Snek, and I understand your concerns. I hope this explanation will help you. (And thank you for voicing your concerns and trusting me to answer. )

Yes,
* I've played a few cRPGs--computer "RPGs" where the player doesn't actually have a rôle or any need to act within a character--but I have no idea why anyone (except marketers) would ever call these rôle-playing games because they just aren't.
* and I've played many RPGs--real ones, on table-tops, with dice, real books, and other people present & participating--but not since the mid-1990s, so I have missed the last 2 to 2½ generations of RPG enculturation and language development.
* and although many people have used some of the words you did, I have understood the words' sentiment enough to understand what the person meant (but not the words, alas).

Does this (and my reactions, below, to Amarok909) explain my nearly-overwhelming ignorance of RPG-speak so you believe that I am/was serious?
e-d



Thank you, Amarok909. (On behalf of myself and all the others here who didn't know.)

(Below, I will snip stuff that isn't important for my questions and then have some replies after your words.)


1. When I played RPGs, "crits" was never used as a word just for attacks because it would have been too ambiguous. There were "critical-": -attacks, -hits, -misses, -successes, -fails, -injuries, and -etc., on top of just plain "saving throws".
Furthermore, each world, genre, and "game engine" had different names for their differing "critical" systems if there was a system! (Example: D&D and AD&D got standardized "critical" rules after most other games because of decade-long game-play and legal copyright/ownership debates. The compnay 'Wizards of the Coast' was almost new when I stopped playing regularly ... )

2. "Build" came after my time, too, once computers were used by "Gen Y" (much larger than the "real Gen X") and the idea of creating individual character rôles started to disappear in favour of just rolling dice: when D&D went into 3rd Edition and other games also moved to standardized systems for use across all genres and chronologies.
In my defence, I can't find anywhere in Lilith's Throne where "build" is used in reference to the Perk Tree or character types! I suspect this phrase is used only by gamers talking in forums about the game ...

3. And this is the first time I've heard and mention of any "caster, seducer, brawler" in LT--especially "builds" named Caster, Seducer, or Brawler. Where in the game are these?

4. "OwObservant" might come from Silly Mode, then ; and OOPS! I didn't see that certain, chosen perks were entitled as "Traits" and not perks! (Aside: They are in a "Perk Tree" and are perquisites you can purchase, or not ... so why aren't they called perks? )
What Where Umm ... a peak form of comedy called "Furry Humor"?

You must be registered to see the links

doesn't even know what you're talking about, here. Is it defined somewhere? (And does the def'n come with examples?)

5. Solved with "4.", above.

6. Thank you, I understand now. And thank you for your patience and effort, too.
(My probably-wrong suspicion is that many of these words derived from "computer-gamer" oral tradition that then spread elsewhere, as RPGs and computer game programmers have had a lot of shared history since the 1990s and also RPGers would probably still be fighting about how they should be used and therefore couldn't possibly be in public use, yet. )

Thank you Snek & Amarok!
e-d

This is the most self-fellating post of 2020, there's so much to unpack here. Like wow, from the way you overuse emoticons like it's 2004, the way you sign your posts like they're letters, to your masturbatory pedantic attitude about niche concepts from the pen and paper days.
I know the shut up boomer is a dead meme at this point but holy shit if it doesn't apply to this case.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

Eh, fair enough.

RPGs have changed a lot since the mid 90's. While many titles are based on or inspired by ye old tabletop RPGs, a lot of them have deviated in their own ways too. Many modern RPGs still use some of the core mechanics and foundations of their forefathers but slightly dumbed down to make gaming more straightforward and streamlined. Using your example of critical; attacks, hits, misses, successes, failures, injuries, etc. When we say "crits" in modern parlance we usually mean three things (and it can be one or all of them together): bonus damage, how often it procs/activates, and how much damage the crit does. Critical hit damage = bonus damage; Critical rate = how often it procs; Critical multiplier = how much damage the crit does. (As you can see, it's much simpler to keep track of.) If I'm not mistaken, Lilith's Throne has all three of these.

Slight correction: Crit Rate in the sense of the usual random chance was dropped with the last combat rework in favour of more deterministic "IF you do X THEN this attack does more damage and/or special effects" conditions.

I don't quite know what you mean ... Which particular "classic DnD" are you referring to? Something that came in a white or pink box that focused on character rôles in high fantasy? Or something from a compiled, single book, that focused on dice rolls?

When it's used outside of hardcore tabletop circles, usually some vague amalgamation of 3rd edition onwards to separate it from all the loosely inspired video game adaptations, the rest is "pre-history" .

So we've come full circle--text smileys used to mimic emojis. That's the new-fangled recursion, is it?

And I thought the apex of ASCII art was computer cows!!!

e-d

Oh, no, OwO is older than those. Various communities had developed very complex sets of ASCII 'emojis' just before the big smartphone and social media boom in the late 2000's, but the art largely died off when official Unicode support and custom image sets became a thing.

Also her reason for dropping it still applies to encounters with multiple characters, i.e. a bunch of imps, to an even greater degree, so I'm guessing it too will be removed soon to give her more time to fiddle with horn thickness to body size ratio?

It does not, at least if you actually understand the reasons. The issue was the player's party being completely unknowable. Inno knows exactly how many people will be in a given encounter group and can tweak their preferences to align as necessary for the intended scenes.

 

[Jove76]

Personally, I found the companion mechanic was by far the aspect of the game that made it enjoyable and tactically complex (trying to find and train a companion whose racial bonuses best fit with the desired build-style). Seeing that the mechanic is being phased out entirely now, for focus on more clothing, colors, and other cosmetic aspects, has acutely diminished my interest in following this game any further. I expect it is unlikely I ever download another update, as not much that I consider improvement has happened for a long time. It feels like "one step forward, and two steps back" over the last 8 months.

 

[SordidDreams]

It does not, at least if you actually understand the reasons. The issue was the player's party being completely unknowable. Inno knows exactly how many people will be in a given encounter group and can tweak their preferences to align as necessary for the intended scenes.

I don't understand the reasons, could you elaborate? Because even with my limited coding experience I think it shouldn't be too difficult to make a system that checks that stuff for an arbitrary number of characters and can be reused in new encounters. But what I've read about this issue so far kinda makes it seems like Inno codes every encounter separately...? So adding a new encounter requires writing a new piece of code to check for all that stuff...? Which doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, and it makes me think maybe it's time to refactor that part of the code and/or rethink how this stuff is handled before adding new encounters.

 

[HornyJail420]

Spoiler alert : You can still take companions with you to fight, Inno will just stop writing content that takes them into account.

 

[e-disfunction]

When it's used outside of hardcore tabletop circles, usually some vague amalgamation of 3rd edition onwards to separate it from all the loosely inspired video game adaptations, the rest is "pre-history" .

Yeah, I was thinking this was the case. (Woohoo, I'm prehistoric!!! )

(Um ... so when I tell you folks that I have a real, genuine, university-grade, slide rule on the desk within reaching distance of the computers that I'm sitting at, what geologic age does that push me near to? )

Oh, no, OwO is older than those. Various communities had developed very complex sets of ASCII 'emojis' just before the big smartphone and social media boom in the late 2000's, but the art largely died off when official Unicode support and custom image sets became a thing.

Snek, when I mentioned "computer cows" were you imagining something like a Gateway Computers ad from near-pre-history?


Because I was thinking "prints" complete with puns, quotations, or poetry:
(Just imagine these printed on standard, green & white, tractor feed paper of 166 columns wide by about 55 lines high ... )

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I'm pretty sure they are older than pre-Y2k emojis.

e-d

P.S.: The slide rule was used by my father in when in he was in secondary/high school.

 

[Jove76]

Spoiler alert : You can still take companions with you to fight, Inno will just stop writing content that takes them into account.

It is about focus of content, and default settings being that the mechanic does not even exist is objective evidence of where the focus is, or is not. You fan-boys are cute the way you try to flame anyone with an opinion that is does not gel with your own, however. In my opinion, nothing added this year adds as much rpg depth as is lost by dropping the companion mechanic. Spoiler Alert: I dont give a flying fuck about your vapid defense of your guru.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

Snek, when I mentioned "computer cows" were you imagining something like a Gateway Computers ad from near-pre-history?

Nah, I was mostly referencing that first line about our current emojis reverting back to text. Just too lazy to crop when there's no massive unrelated paragraphs.
The cows are cool though.

 

[Carl0sDanger]

It is about focus of content, and default settings being that the mechanic does not even exist is objective evidence of where the focus is, or is not. You fan-boys are cute the way you try to flame anyone with an opinion that is does not gel with your own, however. In my opinion, nothing added this year adds as much rpg depth as is lost by dropping the companion mechanic. Spoiler Alert: I dont give a flying fuck about your vapid defense of your guru.

Wow.

In my opinion, the companion mechanic added precisely zero "RPG depth" to the game, so talking about depth being "lost" by ceasing to support various features going forward just seems nonsensical to me. Depth in RPGs comes from making meaningful choices with the consequences that flow from those choices causing a story to emerge from the gameplay. Since one's choice of companion, or what one does with them, has no meaningful impact on the story, how can you call it a source of "RPG depth"?

The companion mechanic could be a source of great depth if - for example - the personality of characters had any input on their behaviour. That is, if the story that emerges from the game were different in any way that matters depending upon who your companion was during various events. If we ever had that companion mechanic in the game, I'd agree that the game would be less for its absence. But since the companion mechanic didn't ever come close to delivering that, I don't get your point here.

Look, if you like having your MC fuck their companions in various places in Dominion and below, that's fine. It was a feature you liked. You're allowed to like things and dislike their absence. But please don't pretend that the feature added "depth" to the game or that its removal would mean that the game has "lost depth".

Ultimately, the game in its current form is little more than a prelude. The story of the game thus far leads up to the MC discovering the central conflict of the game and making the choice as to how they intend to respond to it. And then that story comes to a screeching halt, where it's stayed.

 

[SordidDreams]

Look, if you like having your MC fuck their companions in various places in Dominion and below, that's fine. It was a feature you liked. You're allowed to like things and dislike their absence. But please don't pretend that the feature added "depth" to the game or that its removal would mean that the game has "lost depth".

Given that it's a kinky sex game, I'd say reducing the options for kinky sex does reduce the game's depth. It reduces the roleplaying possibilities and narrows the range of characters you can play. Without companions, you have to handle combat encounters yourself, you can't be a weakling relying on others anymore. You can no longer play an evil character who drags around an unwilling slave purely for the purpose of letting her get raped as a way of avoiding encounters. You can't play a voyeur who likes to watch others go at it. You can't play an exhibitionist who loves having sex in the middle of the city plaza. And so on and so forth. Even if you like playing solo, which I do for the most part as well, it's no longer a roleplaying choice that you get to make.

 

[IvoryOwl]

Without companions, you have to handle combat encounters yourself, you can't be a weakling relying on others anymore.

I'm going to, once again, quote Inno's post from the blog.

Elementals will also be getting a rework, and while they will no longer be summoned as persistent companions, they will still function in the same manner during combat. I will also be adding a way to start an interaction scene with them, so you'll still be able to have sex with them and talk to them about things. I'll be greatly expanding this once again once I get to the stage in the game where Elementals will be properly unlocked in a lore-friendly way (the current elemental spell books are just temporary).

 

[SordidDreams]

I'm going to, once again, quote Inno's post from the blog.

Thankfully you didn't omit the part where she says they're going to be taken away and locked in the future, most likely behind a quest, so I don't have to go digging for that myself. It kinda undermines your whole point, as does the fact that non-caster characters exist. I remain mostly correct: Even a caster will still have to be able to handle combat encounters on their own until they "properly unlock" their elemental "in a lore-friendly way", while for non-casters that option won't exist at all and they'll have to remain self-reliant forever. Maybe try quoting something that actually supports your point next time.

 

[IvoryOwl]

-snip-

My point wasn't undermined. Your argument about being unable to use companions in combat sounded so definite that I assumed you just misinterpreted the whole thing. That quote was to prove to you that you CAN STILL use elementals in a fight. And now you did it again...

Nowhere did Inno said she's taking the elementals away and locking them behind a quest. The current books are just placeholders until the real deal comes along, yes, but you can still buy them and you can still summon elementals during a fight, even with companion content off. I just tried it - version 3.8.6 - so I know it works. (Add the summon spell to your combat moves so you can use it during a fight.) Before Lyss became the official way for us to become a demon, we used to enchant an item called Innoxia's Gift to TF into one. Like the books, it was a workaround solution until proper implementation. My point is, we never really lost access to said content just because it hadn't been implemented in a lore-friendly way. Same thing with elementals here.

You have a point about a non-caster MC... but if you REALLY want to roleplay a wimpy character that needs a companion to protect their ass then you're going to have to bite the bullet and accept the deal you're given. At least you can still use elementals during a fight... better than nothing. I'll give you the rest of your arguments some credit too - can't be a voyeur, exhibitionist, drag your slaves into combat, etc. It sucks, but what can you do? Inno ain't going back on her decision... so you don't have much of a choice besides swimming or sinking.

 

[SordidDreams]

Nowhere did Inno said she's taking the elementals away and locking them behind a quest.

You're right about the last part, that's why I said "most likely", since every gameplay mechanic you unlock in the game so far is locked behind a quest. You're outright wrong about the first part, as you admit a few lines later - the books are going away in the future.

yes, but you can still buy them and you can still summon elementals during a fight, even with companion content off.

So the narrowing of roleplaying possibilities is not a problem because it hasn't happened yet. Right. I'm surprised you didn't go for the similarly short-sighted "YOu CAN JusT tuRn cOMPAniOns ON in THE OptIONS".

Before Lyss became the official way for us to become a demon, we used to enchant an item called Innoxia's Gift to TF into one. Like the books, it was a workaround solution until proper implementation. My point is, we never really lost access to said content just because it hadn't been implemented in a lore-friendly way. Same thing with elementals here.

Not really doing a great job of supporting your above point that elementals aren't going to be taken away and locked behind a quest. Just saying.

 

[Droe]

update is out

 

[SordidDreams]

Removed the diminishing returns factor from all damage attributes and made it clear that these are referring to percentage increases wherever they're displayed (in tooltips and stats screen).

Good! That was one of the most obscure and badly-communicated mechanics in the game.