Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.11.3 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[SordidDreams]

Yeah, I don't really see the attraction of becoming a demon either. Aside from joining the ranks of the enemy (and it's +100 corruption, IIRC), you also lose out on the ability to transform yourself. I can see where the demon path is going; you talk to Lyssieth and you get human transformations because that's her jam, you beat the next lilin that's a pegataur and you get horse transformations, etc. You unlock more demon transformation options as you go through the story. Buuuut the story doesn't exist yet, and you can easily do all those with potions or by turning yourself into a slime, so why demon yourself? For the stat bonuses? Those are nice, but it's not like you really need them; as Vitalsigns noted, the game has plenty of balance issues ripe for exploiting. So overall it seems to me the downsides outweigh the upsides. Maybe if more demon power fantasy scenes are added in the future, such as the scene where you can prank the enforcer patrol.

 

[AkatoshLane]

The game's could use some balance tweaks.

The prostitution ability is a bit too powerful. You can just spam dom>quick sex to quickly earn infinite money. Then you go to the weapon trader(Vicky) and buy Zweihander and you've just beaten the game. The sword deals ~200 damage per turn, so you essentially one-hit everything.

Health bars barely scale with level and damage is entirely based on weapon damage. So, it doesn't really matter if the enemy is level 1 or level 20 their health pools and damage they deal won't be much different.

Plus, it also makes any clothing that doesn't buff physique effictively a noob trap.

Something that's a way more efficient and broken way to make money is through selling slaves. Specifically, succubi and incubi. Their sell value is extremely high, especially if you max out their obedience. I haven't looked that deep into slave stats, but that appears to be the ruling factor on the surface. Usually, incubi/succubi slaves sell a little over 200k when they are subservient. A slave collar only costs 625 a piece, and if you stock up and farm in very dangerous dark alleyways, it's easy to get a whole gaggle of demon slaves. Also, don't forget to take the money out of their inventory. Heck, you could probably just buy some collars or jewelry dirt cheap and give them the enslave enchantment yourself.

It's fun to be able to make money so easily when in the early stages, but when the game is complete a lot of balancing needs to be done. Although, it is up for debate since a lot of us are going through the story line as the game is being worked on, so a lot of us might not even replay it when it is balance. But, weapon wise, it's just no fun and not tactical to be able to kill everything with a few swings. What is the fun of investing in spells and abilities if there is no point in using them? I might take this to the discord for some discussion, but you are definitely right. When I made my first character, it was a little difficult to win fights, but now it's just so easy it just seems like a grind. It got a little difficult when challenging multiple enemies at once, but when you have an elemental with you, it usually takes all of the damage.

 

[SordidDreams]

Something that's a way more efficient and broken way to make money is through selling slaves.

If you want free money, abuse the milking room. With the right transformations, a slave can earn you 1.2 million per day. Getting such a slave is trivial as well, since slimes punch for 1 damage and transform for free.

 

[Boobsette]

If you want free money, abuse the milking room. With the right transformations, a slave can earn you 1.2 million per day. Getting such a slave is trivial as well, since slimes punch for 1 damage and transform for free.

Also have them Love the lactating fetish so they get Bonus obedient and affection.

 

[ChaosOpen]

Something that's a way more efficient and broken way to make money is through selling slaves. Specifically, succubi and incubi. Their sell value is extremely high, especially if you max out their obedience. I haven't looked that deep into slave stats, but that appears to be the ruling factor on the surface. Usually, incubi/succubi slaves sell a little over 200k when they are subservient. A slave collar only costs 625 a piece, and if you stock up and farm in very dangerous dark alleyways, it's easy to get a whole gaggle of demon slaves. Also, don't forget to take the money out of their inventory. Heck, you could probably just buy some collars or jewelry dirt cheap and give them the enslave enchantment yourself.

It's fun to be able to make money so easily when in the early stages, but when the game is complete a lot of balancing needs to be done. Although, it is up for debate since a lot of us are going through the story line as the game is being worked on, so a lot of us might not even replay it when it is balance. But, weapon wise, it's just no fun and not tactical to be able to kill everything with a few swings. What is the fun of investing in spells and abilities if there is no point in using them? I might take this to the discord for some discussion, but you are definitely right. When I made my first character, it was a little difficult to win fights, but now it's just so easy it just seems like a grind. It got a little difficult when challenging multiple enemies at once, but when you have an elemental with you, it usually takes all of the damage.

Yeah, there are several routes to get to a point where you don't even pay attention to how much something costs, but late game you expect to be filthy rich. However, you shouldn't be able to buy such a powerful weapon 10 minutes into the run. Also, with the soldier perk/job your attacks deal double damage on the first turn(the turn you one-shot them). Buy the phyiscal damage sword with the soldier job and might as well roll the credits.

You mentioned battles being a grind, when I think of a grind in RPGs I think of a monotonous task that is done towards a goal. For example, you'd grind levels, money, or equipment. However, there is nothing to be gained in combat, rather than a grind it would be more accurately described as bothersome, serving no purpose other than to halt your progress every few feet so that you can quickly click through menus.

I really is depressing how the author has expanded on the combat but in 3 years he hasn't bothered to balance it.

Recommendations:
- Remove the ability to prostitute yourself.
- Have health pools scale with level to a bit more
- Have enemy loot scale with level(higher level enemies use more powerful weapons which can be taken from them)
- Don't sell high level gear in shops you encounter at level 1
- Allow us to keep a wider selection of weapons we can hot-swap between and make each race resistant and weak to a certain damage type.

 

[organord]

I don't think the game's combat system and economy need to be super balanced, to be honest. Mind you, I'm not saying it needs to be completely ignored, either.

It's just that having some broken combinations is perfectly fine in a porn game, and the player can self-regulate and choose to use them or not (depending on whether they just want to get to the porn stuff, or if they want a normal RPG-ish experience along the way).
If they want to search for what the most broken strategies are, and pursue them from the start, they don't have the right to complain about difficulty (or lack of it).

Playing blind, you have so many options that stumbling on a strong combination means you either did a bunch of experimenting (in which case you earned it), or you got lucky (which is perfectly fine if you're happy with the outcome, or might warrant a change of build focus or some self-handicapping if you desire more difficulty).

Broken builds and moneymaking options aside, you can already use the "buggy" command to bring up the console, and some of the normal game settings can make the game trivial as well no matter how you build your character (most notably the one that turns off the max capacity of enchants you can equip, so you can enchant your stats into the stratosphere).
As such, I don't get the feeling that Innoxia is trying to mandate a certain level of challenge in the game that every player must experience.
Rather, with the impressive amount of customizability the game gives you for fetish content, I think it makes perfect sense that the player is given a similar amount of freedom for the actual gameplay portion too.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

Ok, sure, the balance is non-existent but

- Remove the ability to prostitute yourself.

In a porn game? Seriously?

 

[SordidDreams]

I don't think the game's combat system and economy need to be super balanced, to be honest. Mind you, I'm not saying it needs to be completely ignored, either.
[...]
I don't get the feeling that Innoxia is trying to mandate a certain level of challenge in the game that every player must experience.
Rather, with the impressive amount of customizability the game gives you for fetish content, I think it makes perfect sense that the player is given a similar amount of freedom for the actual gameplay portion too.

Agreed 100%. The game is very much a wish-fulfilment fantasy, allowing you to very easily mold your character to fit your preferences in terms of their physique and sexuality, and I think this is supposed to be the case with more mundane roleplaying aspects as well, e.g. how the player character makes money. Wanna earn your living as a whore? No problem! Wanna own slaves and work them half to death? Gotcha! Wanna run around beating people up and taking their stuff? You can do that too!

It's tempting to view something like the milking room as an obvious exploit, since it allows you to easily earn all the money you're ever going to need. But it also allow you to not have to do things you don't want to do, and I think there's real value in that. If the game is supposed to be a wish-fulfillment roleplay fantasy, forcing the player to be things they don't want to be would not be appropriate; I don't want the game to pressure me into being a slave owner and a prostitute and a mugger and whatever else to make ends meet. That's the mistake Bethesda made in TES Oblivion, where each round of the persuasion minigame involves four actions, joke, admire, boast, and coerce. Which means you can't be a boastful swashbuckler or an intimidating thug or a slick flatterer or a likeable prankster, you have to do all four every time; the character the game forces you to 'roleplay' is a complete psychotic with constant mood swings. I'm really glad LT is not like that and just lets you be what you want to be.

That said, I also think you're correct that balance should not be ignored completely. The milking room could frankly do with a nerf, there's no need to shower the player with several orders of magnitude more money than they need. Other money-making options, like prostitution or enemy loot, could stand a buff, since they're quite tedious and slow. I think ideally any single method would allow you to comfortably earn the money you need, so that you can choose what you want to be without being forced into roles you don't want.

 

[ChaosOpen]

I don't think the game's combat system and economy need to be super balanced, to be honest. Mind you, I'm not saying it needs to be completely ignored, either.

It's just that having some broken combinations is perfectly fine in a porn game, and the player can self-regulate and choose to use them or not (depending on whether they just want to get to the porn stuff, or if they want a normal RPG-ish experience along the way).
If they want to search for what the most broken strategies are, and pursue them from the start, they don't have the right to complain about difficulty (or lack of it).

Playing blind, you have so many options that stumbling on a strong combination means you either did a bunch of experimenting (in which case you earned it), or you got lucky (which is perfectly fine if you're happy with the outcome, or might warrant a change of build focus or some self-handicapping if you desire more difficulty).

Broken builds and moneymaking options aside, you can already use the "buggy" command to bring up the console, and some of the normal game settings can make the game trivial as well no matter how you build your character (most notably the one that turns off the max capacity of enchants you can equip, so you can enchant your stats into the stratosphere).
As such, I don't get the feeling that Innoxia is trying to mandate a certain level of challenge in the game that every player must experience.
Rather, with the impressive amount of customizability the game gives you for fetish content, I think it makes perfect sense that the player is given a similar amount of freedom for the actual gameplay portion too.

Problem with that is it should be a late-game thing, something you earn. I'm sure you've played Teaching Feeling right? It doesn't just let you do anything with Silvie right off the bat, it makes you work towards it and as you play the game it gives you more and more options.

The value of a reward is determined by how much you had to work for it. When the game just lays out all of it's toys at the very start of the game then there is very little reward for playing. After you're done playing the game in all the wrong ways(such as filling the entire house with incest babies or becoming a freak of nature using potions to give you one appendage of each type of animal) then it gets old quick.

 

[e-disfunction]

Yeah, I don't really see the attraction of becoming a demon either. Aside from joining the ranks of the enemy (and it's +100 corruption, IIRC), ...

I've done a few experiments to check and I find that the minimum corruption when you are a demon is only 50%. Did I miss something in my experiments?

e-d

 

[organord]

I've done a few experiments to check and I find that the minimum corruption when you are a demon is only 50%. Did I miss something in my experiments?

e-d

How exactly are you testing this?
Do you have gear enchanted to reduce Corruption that you forgot to remove?

If you go to, say, Zaranix's home in Dominion and examine the racial bonuses of the demons within, you'll see that they get +100 Corruption from their Demon racial perk.
This is also the perk you get from completing the demon transformation that Lyssieth grants if you ask her while having 95+ corruption. Note that you need to go through the entire transformation scene before checking; during the sex-scene you will pass through a transitory lesser succubus stage first (can't remember how much Corruption it had, but it didn't use the full Demon-mode icon yet).

Half-demons like Lilaya and Meraxis only get +50 Corruption from their racial perk.
Imps and Alpha-imps actually get +200 Corruption (representing their greater perversion and lust, despite being the lowest grade of demon).
Elder Lilin like Lyssieth get +1000 Corruption.

 

[e-disfunction]

How exactly are you testing this?
Do you have gear enchanted to reduce Corruption that you forgot to remove?
...
Half-demons like Lilaya and Meraxis only get +50 Corruption from their racial perk.

Oops, sorry, it seems I only experimented with creating partial demons.

Thank you for catching that and the rest of the demon-corruption info, too!

e-d

 

[Carl0sDanger]

...when the game is complete a lot of balancing needs to be done.

This would seem to be the way to do it to me. Once Inno's in a position to look over the entire game, that will be the time to revisit balance.

I can see where the demon path is going; you talk to Lyssieth and you get human transformations because that's her jam, you beat the next lilin that's a pegataur and you get horse transformations, etc. You unlock more demon transformation options as you go through the story.

One possibility I've suggested before is gating off higher levels behind Lilin confrontations. So each confrontation unlocks a further ten levels (or whatever) of potential progress. In particular, we need a way to get Arcame and Physique up to 100 so that the MC can eventually confront Lilith on her own terms, while not allowing players to max out the MC during what is essentially a prologue. That would give rewards for players with non-demon MCs as they progress through the story.

Moving activities like milking out of Dominion might be a good idea too. So the MC needs to establish a secondary base (in a farmstead that they liberate/conquer or something) in order to have a "dairy farm". This could then extend to other areas (weird "spices" in the jungle?) as the world opens up.

But Inno needs to get the basic outline of the main story in place first. At which point she can go back and address issues of balance. It's an exercise in futility to try to perfectly balance the game at this stage.

 

[ChaosOpen]

This would seem to be the way to do it to me. Once Inno's in a position to look over the entire game, that will be the time to revisit balance.



One possibility I've suggested before is gating off higher levels behind Lilin confrontations. So each confrontation unlocks a further ten levels (or whatever) of potential progress. In particular, we need a way to get Arcame and Physique up to 100 so that the MC can eventually confront Lilith on her own terms, while not allowing players to max out the MC during what is essentially a prologue. That would give rewards for players with non-demon MCs as they progress through the story.

Moving activities like milking out of Dominion might be a good idea too. So the MC needs to establish a secondary base (in a farmstead that they liberate/conquer or something) in order to have a "dairy farm". This could then extend to other areas (weird "spices" in the jungle?) as the world opens up.

But Inno needs to get the basic outline of the main story in place first. At which point she can go back and address issues of balance. It's an exercise in futility to try to perfectly balance the game at this stage.

Not really, normally you start out with the core game mechanics then build from there. Adding things to an already existing system is a lot easier than trying to completely overhaul such a large system. Rather than trying to balance such a large number of enemies, spells, weapons, and perks all together, it's easier to create a base system of only a few enemies, and a few weapons, then add things that are balanced to the existing core group. Balancing one enemy, one weapon, or one perk is a lot easier than trying to balance 100+ objects in a single sitting.

 

[SordidDreams]

*snip*

IMO an elegant way of raising arcane and physique would be to simply add them to the perk tree nodes in addition to their normal effects. Like maybe +5 physique per combat node, +5 arcane per spellcasting node. Though I do realize the current perk tree is a very crude placeholder, so those normal effects are in dire need of a revision too. Hell, basically every balance-related number in the game is just very roughly eyeballed, so what I'm driving at here is just a general principle along the lines of "automatically increase core stats as the player levels".

You're almost certainly right that content is going to be moved out of Dominion and dispersed around the larger world as the game grows. I'm in two minds about it. Not doing it will make the later game boring; doing it will make the early game boring. I like LT a lot precisely because it's very 'dense'; the entire progression from start to endgame is compressed into what you correctly identify as a tutorial. I'm not sure I'm going to like it as much when it's spread out across a sprawling open-world RPG; I have a sinking feeling it's going to end up feeling diluted.

*snip*

From a purely technical point of view, you're right. The easiest way to balance the game would be through a 'vertical slice'; make some early-game enemies and weapons and perks and balance them, make some late-game enemies and weapons and perks and balance them, and then fill in the middle using this progression framework as a guide. As you do so, you can move the late-game items out of the older zones and into the newly implemented ones. That's the rational way to approach this.

The problem with that is that it's not going to feel good to us irrational meatbags. Why would the people supporting this game get excited about updates if every new thing in them was guaranteed to be worse than what they already have from previous versions? Every single online game understands this, that's why power creep exists. If your players have played previous versions of your game, you can't add new items (exclusively) into the middle of progression, you have to tack (at least some of) them onto the end and extend that progression so that the older players who have already reached that end have somewhere further to go. But as you noted and as we know from existing games that do this, that creates its own set of problems. Like every other dev who releases their game piecemeal, Inno's between a rock and a hard place.

 

[ChaosOpen]

From a purely technical point of view, you're right. The easiest way to balance the game would be through a 'vertical slice'; make some early-game enemies and weapons and perks and balance them, make some late-game enemies and weapons and perks and balance them, and then fill in the middle using this progression framework as a guide. As you do so, you can move the late-game items out of the older zones and into the newly implemented ones. That's the rational way to approach this.

The problem with that is that it's not going to feel good to us irrational meatbags. Why would the people supporting this game get excited about updates if every new thing in them was guaranteed to be worse than what they already have from previous versions? Every single online game understands this, that's why power creep exists. If your players have played previous versions of your game, you can't add new items (exclusively) into the middle of progression, you have to tack (at least some of) them onto the end and extend that progression so that the older players who have already reached that end have somewhere further to go. But as you noted and as we know from existing games that do this, that creates its own set of problems. Like every other dev who releases their game piecemeal, Inno's between a rock and a hard place.

Nobody said you need to release every asset you make. So, lets say she made 5 swords, each with a different level on it but she's only completed 1/3 of the game, obviously there is no need to release every single weapon, release the weapons she thinks we should have at that point in the game. Content should be story focused, in an RPG with combat like this it's part of the core gameplay loop explore>fight stuff>have sex>explore>fight stuff>have sex>explore etc.

Exploration is pretty much content/story, it's about wanting the user to see what's over the next hill and from what I've seen, it isn't that bad. However, fighting could use a few tweaks

 

[SoulDF]

Are there any companion system planned? I would like to recruit Meraxis or some other girls, like in Konosuba...

 

[ChaosOpen]

Are there any companion system planned? I would like to recruit Meraxis or some other girls, like in Konosuba...

It seems like it is coming, and the mechanics are in place, as you can have either an elemental, one of your children, or a slave in your party; however, it doesn't seem like she is planning on expanding upon it until a later date.

 

[SordidDreams]

*snip*

That is true, but not releasing content you've made makes the current version less interesting for the players than it could be, which can be a problem if you're relying on their support. Weapon balance is a relatively straightforward problem, but this applies to other, less quantifiable aspects of the game as well, like for instance transformations. Currently we unlock the entire transformation system all at once when we learn enchanting. Which is great, being able to change every aspect of your body is a lot of fun, but it also means there's not much to add to it in future versions (aside from the ability to grow multiple penises, which gets mentioned every once in a while). But that's only true of the potion-based transformations, demon transformations actually are restricted in the way you describe with only a small portion of the options accessible in this version. And as I mentioned earlier, I see little reason to become a demon at this point as a result. Do you think the game would be as successful as it is if poition transformations were similarly limited? I rather doubt it.

 

[ChaosOpen]

That is true, but not releasing content you've made makes the current version less interesting for the players than it could be, which can be a problem if you're relying on their support. Weapon balance is a relatively straightforward problem, but this applies to other, less quantifiable aspects of the game as well, like for instance transformations. Currently we unlock the entire transformation system all at once when we learn enchanting. Which is great, being able to change every aspect of your body is a lot of fun, but it also means there's not much to add to it in future versions (aside from the ability to grow multiple penises, which gets mentioned every once in a while). But that's only true of the potion-based transformations, demon transformations actually are restricted in the way you describe with only a small portion of the options accessible in this version. And as I mentioned earlier, I see little reason to become a demon at this point as a result. Do you think the game would be as successful as it is if poition transformations were similarly limited? I rather doubt it.

Speaking of growing pensis, I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong or something but when I'm playing a woman and attempt to grow a penis it ends up only being 1/2'' long and like 2'' wide, which considering rubbing on it squirts out a thick white liquid just makes it sound like a giant pimple.