Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.11.3 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[Hongfire Survivor]

I can't call this thread toxic, you guys fans of the game are expressing your dissatisfaction, this is totally normal and understandable. That said, I feel it would be more constructive and helpful for you to do this on Innoxia's Discord too, so there's a chance for her to listen to criticisms and requests.

You get banned off the Discord for going against the hivemind

 

[Marlin Brandy]

I can't call this thread toxic, you guys fans of the game are expressing your dissatisfaction, this is totally normal and understandable. That said, I feel it would be more constructive and helpful for you to do this on Innoxia's Discord too, so there's a chance for her to listen to criticisms and requests.

that's pretty much impossible since any real constructive criticism gets instantly dogpiled if you're not powerwashing inno's ass in the same paragraph. Or you just get kicked. the echo chambers have grown too sensitive to any naysayers

 

[Airell]

You get banned off the Discord for going against the hivemind

that's pretty much impossible since any real constructive criticism gets instantly dogpiled if you're not powerwashing inno's ass in the same paragraph. Or you just get kicked. the echo chambers have grown too sensitive to any naysayers

Sorry, I don't participate in Innoxia's Discord, and my server doesn't seem to be like that so i don't quite know how it feels. I received good feedback and criticism in equal measure in general, and it helps me a lot to improve the game.

I'm not sure what that would be like, but it sounds like a fanatical cult. lol

 

[Marlin Brandy]

Sorry, I don't participate in Innoxia's Discord, and my server doesn't seem to be like that so i don't quite know how it feels. I received good feedback and criticism in equal measure in general, and it helps me a lot to improve the game.

I'm not sure what that would be like, but it sounds like a fanatical cult. lol

I don't blame her. it's easy to surround yourself with yes men and especially easy when they tell you to kick those who criticize the game, and don't give you any pressure to make progress. the comfy vibes are a great temptation.
I understand her actions, I just don't agree with them.

 

[Shorsey]

Uh... Having Mod issues right now and I'm not sure if the problem is me or the game.

Most of the Mods I have are GURETO, but I'm only using one of them at a time but whenever I place a mod into the game it kinda just locks up whenever I click on 'New Game' or after I start loading one of my save files. The game will register my mouse going over the buttons but it'll never register me clicking them.

I've got version 0.4.4 downloaded, I've updated Java about 3 days ago for reference and this is what I'm dealing with. Am I not supposed to place Mods in the 'Mods' folder? Are the mods just too outdated to work? Or am I just dealing with the game not wanting to work?

Inside the data folder is a error log, it should tell you what's wrong.

 

[tehlemon]

I can't call this thread toxic, you guys fans of the game are expressing your dissatisfaction, this is totally normal and understandable. That said, I feel it would be more constructive and helpful for you to do this on Innoxia's Discord too, so there's a chance for her to listen to criticisms and requests.

There's definitely been a few people who were outright toxic over the years. But it was never the majority. But if you're the person who's now like four months late on an update, seeing 500-1000 comments on *every* blog post laughing at the delays probably seems pretty toxic. Specially when the only other part of the community you see is discord, where they ban literally everyone who says anything negative at all.

 

[Airell]

There's definitely been a few people who were outright toxic over the years. But it was never the majority. But if you're the person who's now like four months late on an update, seeing 500-1000 comments on *every* blog post laughing at the delays probably seems pretty toxic. Specially when the only other part of the community you see is discord, where they ban literally everyone who says anything negative at all.

Nothing on someone's Discord server is done without the owner's permission. If that happens there, that's why Innoxia chose it. Every time I come to this thread I can see she feels very safe as she can reap very positive fruits from the project no matter what.

I would be very concerned about this huge amount of criticism, delays, slow development, and mockery, but I'm not in the same position as her, so I can only speculate.

 

[tehlemon]

I would be very concerned about this huge amount of criticism, delays, slow development, and mockery, but I'm not in the same position as her, so I can only speculate.

The thing is, I could never be in the same position she is. Because everything I would do is completely different than what she's done.

First, because I have a pretty successful career that I like and is doing well for me (aside from weekends like this one where I'm both on call and volunteered for a bunch of extra weekend work, so I'm pretty much staying home and playing video games and chatting online). I wouldn't quit my job and make developing a game my main focus. I'd want to keep working at a rate where its fun, where I wouldn't end up horribly burnt out like Inno clearly is with writing. And I'd still put out the same level of work lol

But also like, I just wouldn't make a lot of the same choices. I wouldn't want a discord server that I have any hand in or control of. Unofficial discord servers? Sure. Official discord servers, no way. I'd absolutely want the separation between myself and fans of my product. They're not my friends, they're my customers. They're not going to give me unbiased interactions, good or bad. And I really don't want that.

But that likely comes back to me having a healthy work life balance alongside social interaction outside of the internet. Despite the perception, I'm not terminally online. I don't need or want to rely on a fan club for my social or mental health in the way it seems she does at times.

I'd never end up in Inno situation because I'd absolutely hate it.

And then we get to the game itself... I wouldn't design a game like this. Every single method by which the game was designed is completely counter to how I think about development. And I was already aware of all the roadblocks LT keeps running into before LT ran into them. I had plans for most of these problem before I started writing code. Because you should really *design* the thing before you start *building* the thing.

LT is just the perfect storm of good timing, the rapid increase in parasocial relationships, and the super common trend of people making a single thing they like a major part of their personality.

But hey, at least Inno never has to spend their Saturday playing NMS and watching backups and updates complete for a dozen data centers around the continent. It sounds exciting; it's not. Good thing I negotiated for overtime.

 

[AH-64E]

Nothing on someone's Discord server is done without the owner's permission. If that happens there, that's why Innoxia chose it. Every time I come to this thread I can see she feels very safe as she can reap very positive fruits from the project no matter what.

I would be very concerned about this huge amount of criticism, delays, slow development, and mockery, but I'm not in the same position as her, so I can only speculate.

I believe part of the frustration is that LT is nearly peerless in regards to what it does, and how well it does it. At the end of the day, LT does a great many things very shallowly that other games focus on and yet can't do nearly as well. The problem is, over the last few years, not only has LT stagnated, it's gotten worse in some ways (proposed party member changes, for instance). And in that lengthy window of stagnation, she has raked in hundreds of thousands of dollars with nearly nothing to show for it (other than quadruped and armpit sex).

I don't follow this thread religiously, mostly just pop in when I want to learn about model trains or get a laugh. But from what I've seen, no one is ever really toxic, they're just... very annoyed.

And yes, while the owner has ownership over their personal Discord, that doesn't mean that the environment they foster is healthy for them or others, or that they actually possess any control on what happens there. It's good to have a support network when you need it, but bad to have a crutch/coddlers. Her blog before she cut off comments wasn't even negative, it was legit "oh, another delay" (which was enough to give her panic attacks). She's either incredibly unwell, sheltered, or a con artist. That's not mockery, it's an educated character assessment. If I see a worker not actually do any work for three years, doesn't matter who they are--- I and the majority of humanity would say the same regardless of who that person was.

And even if everyone here was raggin' on her nonstop, what does it matter? She'll never see it. Maybe someone from her discord will tell her "Hey, those creeps from F95 are talking shit again", console her, and it won't change a single thing. If everyone in here lauded her as a hero and genius, the game still wouldn't be getting made.

 

[PhoenixChampion]

Inside the data folder is a error log, it should tell you what's wrong.

Looked at it, that... Kinda answered nothing for me except a lot of stuff could not be found. Tried a newer mod from someone else and it worked properly, so I can at least state that... Probably a majority of Gureto's mods are outdated... Maybe.

 

[Shorsey]

Looked at it, that... Kinda answered nothing for me except a lot of stuff could not be found. Tried a newer mod from someone else and it worked properly, so I can at least state that... Probably a majority of Gureto's mods are outdated... Maybe.

Mind sharing the log?

As far as i know Gureto does only Weapons/Clothing mods. They shouldn't cause this kind of problem, even if outdated.

 

[Airell]

The thing is, I could never be in the same position she is. Because everything I would do is completely different than what she's done.

First, because I have a pretty successful career that I like and is doing well for me (aside from weekends like this one where I'm both on call and volunteered for a bunch of extra weekend work, so I'm pretty much staying home and playing video games and chatting online). I wouldn't quit my job and make developing a game my main focus. I'd want to keep working at a rate where its fun, where I wouldn't end up horribly burnt out like Inno clearly is with writing. And I'd still put out the same level of work lol

But also like, I just wouldn't make a lot of the same choices. I wouldn't want a discord server that I have any hand in or control of. Unofficial discord servers? Sure. Official discord servers, no way. I'd absolutely want the separation between myself and fans of my product. They're not my friends, they're my customers. They're not going to give me unbiased interactions, good or bad. And I really don't want that.

But that likely comes back to me having a healthy work life balance alongside social interaction outside of the internet. Despite the perception, I'm not terminally online. I don't need or want to rely on a fan club for my social or mental health in the way it seems she does at times.

I'd never end up in Inno situation because I'd absolutely hate it.

And then we get to the game itself... I wouldn't design a game like this. Every single method by which the game was designed is completely counter to how I think about development. And I was already aware of all the roadblocks LT keeps running into before LT ran into them. I had plans for most of these problem before I started writing code. Because you should really *design* the thing before you start *building* the thing.

LT is just the perfect storm of good timing, the rapid increase in parasocial relationships, and the super common trend of people making a single thing they like a major part of their personality.

But hey, at least Inno never has to spend their Saturday playing NMS and watching backups and updates complete for a dozen data centers around the continent. It sounds exciting; it's not. Good thing I negotiated for overtime.

I can almost totally agree. I can't imagine doing the same as her because I started a project out of passion, creating what I love and being able to pour it all into my game. Funding would just be the consequence of that, although I would love more than anything to be able to work on it full-time. Unite passion and profession.

Personally, I see the LT model as hell from a technical point of view. You have a countless number of fetishes and variables, and in practice, you can never fill them all. You condemn your players and fans to use their imagination. And this is especially true if the dev doesn't like to write. I feel that dev love his project is essential, as without it he will never reach his full potential.

I would never think of doing such a thing, also because doing so would make it difficult to give the game a real direction, something that is essential for development: You need to have a clear path.

The best way to lose this is to look to satisfy niches.

 

[Shorsey]

out of passion, creating what I love

According to her first posts back when she started this project she had those exact motivations. She wanted to create something like CoC, but with more freedom. And if you look at some of the earliest quests you'll notice how much more thought was put into them.
I guess back then she didn't realise how much work it would take to give this level freedom.

Personally, I see the LT model as hell from a technical point of view. You have a countless number of fetishes and variables, and in practice, you can never fill them all.

She was is a naive, young girl who couldn't see past her own feet.

You condemn your players and fans to use their imagination.

Isn't this the point of text based games? The dev provide a basis and you use your imagination to expand that.

 

[tehlemon]

Personally, I see the LT model as hell from a technical point of view. You have a countless number of fetishes and variables, and in practice, you can never fill them all. You condemn your players and fans to use their imagination. And this is especially true if the dev doesn't like to write. I feel that dev love his project is essential, as without it he will never reach his full potential.

I would never think of doing such a thing, also because doing so would make it difficult to give the game a real direction, something that is essential for development: You need to have a clear path.

The best way to lose this is to look to satisfy niches.

That's true. There definitely wasn't a clear plan on where they wanted the game to go.

But I meant more like the technical side of things. The game is just badly designed. It's not just direction, but everything. There was literally no proper consideration towards future workflow, for example. That's why adding new content is such a colossal nightmare and Inno's had to recreate a large portion of the game to make it possible to like, add the game content.

Like, seriously; there was clearly no thought put into "how am I going to add the planned areas into the game." Why even come up with a plan for direction you want your game content to go if you're not going to build the game around the plan. Why have a plan that you're not going to build around.

Every major delay to this game from the technical perspective has just made me question reality. Just like, seriously lacking any level of thinking things through. So much of the game was just done with a "this is what I feel like adding right now" with no thought towards future content.

But you are forgetting one thing. Modding can solve a lot of the problems. But only if you plan for it ahead of time. If you want to allow for modding if you properly design the content workflow, then anyone can add content. It doesn't have to be only you.

 

[Airell]

That's true. There definitely wasn't a clear plan on where they wanted the game to go.

But I meant more like the technical side of things. The game is just badly designed. It's not just direction, but everything. There was literally no proper consideration towards future workflow, for example. That's why adding new content is such a colossal nightmare and Inno's had to recreate a large portion of the game to make it possible to like, add the game content.

Like, seriously; there was clearly no thought put into "how am I going to add the planned areas into the game." Why even come up with a plan for direction you want your game content to go if you're not going to build the game around the plan. Why have a plan that you're not going to build around.

Every major delay to this game from the technical perspective has just made me question reality. Just like, seriously lacking any level of thinking things through. So much of the game was just done with a "this is what I feel like adding right now" with no thought towards future content.

But you are forgetting one thing. Modding can solve a lot of the problems. But only if you plan for it ahead of time. If you want to allow for modding if you properly design the content workflow, then anyone can add content. It doesn't have to be only you.

The modding and the willingness to create the framework for it depends on the dev. From what I've read, Innoxia is somewhat wary of people messing up her work. I understand that, I feel the same way too. My game is my creation, and I take care of every detail carefully.

According to her first posts back when she started this project she had those exact motivations. She wanted to create something like CoC, but with more freedom. And if you look at some of the earliest quests you'll notice how much more thought was put into them.
I guess back then she didn't realise how much work it would take to give this level freedom.



She was is a naive, young girl who couldn't see past her own feet.



Isn't this the point of text based games? The dev provide a basis and you use your imagination to expand that.

Yes and no. Text games offer writing for you to imagine, but in the case of LT, you don't have the variations of fetishes and so on, that is, you don't have the reading to imagine things and you need to complete everything with your imagination.

 

[IvoryOwl]

Sorry, I don't participate in Innoxia's Discord, and my server doesn't seem to be like that so i don't quite know how it feels. I received good feedback and criticism in equal measure in general, and it helps me a lot to improve the game.

I'm not sure what that would be like, but it sounds like a fanatical cult. lol

As much as I would like to point fingers at Discord again, the more I think about it the more I realize we're two sides of the same coin.

Both sides have established their territory and only tolerate like-minded individuals into their fold. You go into Discord to criticize and chances are you'll get crap for it. Any of theirs come here to headbutt with us and they get the same treatment. In doing so, both sides have created their own echo chambers. The only difference is that we can't really ban anyone because we don't have any mods on our side. They do.

In essence, this is a fight between perspectives and means to an end. Discord and most subscribers prefer to take a more positive approach, while we tend to be harsher. It's the ol' "donator vs investor" mentality. It would be ideal if both sides could compromise and consolidate but the community prefers to headbutt instead, with the "I'm better than them" mindset, which only drives each other apart.

As for the whole "toxic" thing and the comment section...
Inno didn't shut down the comments "just because", she was partially forced to do so to keep a lid on the toxicity. Before that she disabled anonymous comments a few times to keep things under control, before reinstating them again. That wouldn't last long however, as it was only a matter of time before things imploded again. People don't like to be silenced, especially when they believe they have reasons to be upset. Keeping the comments disabled is entirely her choice, however.

Most comments were criticizing the state of the game and the progress (or lack of thereof) and were relatively "ok" but there were times when things would devolve into a toxic wasteland, with people hurling insults and starting fights with each other. They were upset and would remain so because the root of the problem persisted. They were neither happy with the game's progress nor the developer's methods, but rather than abandon the game and do something else, they still clung to the hope and potential it offered.

And that's basically where the schism that split the community started...

 

[Airell]

As much as I would like to point fingers at Discord again, the more I think about it the more I realize we're two sides of the same coin.

Both sides have established their territory and only tolerate like-minded individuals into their fold. You go into Discord to criticize and chances are you'll get crap for it. Any of theirs come here to headbutt with us and they get the same treatment. In doing so, both sides have created their own echo chambers. The only difference is that we can't really ban anyone because we don't have any mods on our side. They do.

In essence, this is a fight between perspectives and means to an end. Discord and most subscribers prefer to take a more positive approach, while we tend to be harsher. It's the ol' "donator vs investor" mentality. It would be ideal if both sides could compromise and consolidate but the community prefers to headbutt each other instead, with the "I'm better than them" mindset, which only drives each other apart.

As for the whole "toxic" thing and the comment section...
Inno didn't shut down the comments "just because", she was partially forced to do so to keep a lid on the toxicity. Before that she disabled anonymous comments a few times to keep things under control, before reinstating them again. It didn't last long before it spun out of control again and she decided it was for the best to just disable everything. Keeping them that way is, and still remains, her choice.

Most comments were criticizing the state of the game and the progress (or lack of thereof) and were relatively "ok" but there were times when things would devolve into a toxic wasteland, with people hurling insults and starting fights with each other. They were upset and would remain so because the root of the problem persisted. They were neither happy with the game's progress nor the developer's methods, but rather than abandon the game and do something else, they still clung to the hope and potential it offered.

And that's basically where the schism that split the community started...

Sorry, but that sounds like Innoxia didn't know how to deal with her community either. This is an important point, and as I said before, problems like this are avoided when you have a firm and clear direction for the game, without getting carried away by niche desires.

It is necessary for patrons to criticize and demand, otherwise there is no reason for the dev to work harder. Remember that they are the only ones who can do this. Patreon doesn't have a policy to make devs perform better.

Of course, it's easier said and done and in practice this doesn't happen.

 

[IvoryOwl]

Sorry, but that sounds like Innoxia didn't know how to deal with her community either. This is an important point, and as I said before, problems like this are avoided when you have a firm and clear direction for the game, without getting carried away by niche desires.

It is necessary for patrons to criticize and demand, otherwise there is no reason for the dev to work harder. Remember that they are the only ones who can do this. Patreon doesn't have a policy to make devs perform better.

Of course, it's easier said and done and in practice this doesn't happen.

I agree.

As annoying as it may be, it is best to be told upfront whether or not the game is for us. At least it's kinder than being left in a perpetual uncertainty on whether or not the game will pan out a certain way. Inno trying to please everyone and having no direction doesn't help anyone, least of all herself.

She started off knowing nothing about coding and game development; she had lofty expectations and hopes of what she wanted to accomplish with this, not realizing it was an impossible dream, especially with her limited skillset. But she was young and naïve then. She probably knows better now but doesn't want to admit this game was basically dead-on-arrival from the start and the subscribers have become the life-support.

If this game is to see the light at the end of the tunnel then she will have to scrap it and start over, this time with realistic expectations and a clear direction, maybe with a better and more modern engine as well. It's a developer's worst nightmare, 6 years into a project.

 

[Airell]

I agree.

As annoying as it may be, it is best to be told upfront whether or not the game is for us. At least it's kinder than being left in a perpetual uncertainty on whether or not the game will pan out a certain way. Inno trying to please everyone and having no direction doesn't help anyone, least of all herself.

She started off knowing nothing about coding and game development; she had lofty expectations and hopes of what she wanted to accomplish with this, not realizing it was an impossible dream, especially with her limited skillset. But she was young and naïve then. She probably knows better now but doesn't want to admit this game was basically dead-on-arrival from the start and the subscribers have become the life-support.

If this game is to see the light at the end of the tunnel then she will have to scrap it and start over, this time with realistic expectations and a clear direction, maybe with a better and more modern engine as well. It's a developer's worst nightmare, 6 years into a project.

I don't feel like 6 years on a project is a problem, as long as you have real breakthroughs and know that it will end as you planned. The worst nightmare, in my opinion, is that you're stuck with something you don't see ways to complete, something you don't like, just because you need the money.

 

[AH-64E]

I don't feel like 6 years on a project is a problem, as long as you have real breakthroughs and know that it will end as you planned. The worst nightmare, in my opinion, is that you're stuck with something you don't see ways to complete, something you don't like, just because you need the money.

Then the person in that situation should end the negative situation and remove themselves from it. Continuing to take funds for a project you no longer possess a passion for, while also feeling like it's an obligation, is an incredibly unhealthy situation to be in (if you actually care anymore).

She either needs to swallow the life pill and work on something she no longer seems to have an interest in (or contract out to her helpers to work on the game for her since they're mostly responsible for what little content additions the game has received anyway), or quit and go get a normal 9-5 job that's structured. Some people just can't function without guidelines, it's possible she's one of them.

Either way, she does have to decide at some point, eventually even her staunchest supporters will join the disillusioned and cease in their blind support. Might be a year, might be ten, but her current business model is untenable. At some point, she'll have to work to support herself (unless she has been investing the money she gets from LT and anything she gets is just a pleasant bonus).