Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.11.3 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[jarmenkell]

Gluing 100 fidget spinners to a tire does not make it a brand new tire.

I am not sure that analogy makes sense, I can arguably say all creative work is derivatives of past works, after all, according to some there are only 7 types of story that exist in the world and all fiction is a derivative of at least one of those types of story.

Even if innoxia's work is derivative, I don't think it's fair to insinuate he lacks creativity, or skill.

But that aside, I haven't been following this project for a while, and just skimming some of the forums posts, there seems to be hostility towards him?

 

[tehlemon]

I am not sure that analogy makes sense, I can arguably say all creative work is derivatives of past works, after all, according to some there are only 7 types of story that exist in the world and all fiction is a derivative of at least one of those types of story.

Even if innoxia's work is derivative, I don't think it's fair to insinuate he lacks creativity, or skill.

But that aside, I haven't been following this project for a while, and just skimming some of the forums posts, there seems to be hostility towards him?

You're right, that's not the reason to insinuate that she lacks creativity or skill.

The game demonstrates lack of skill on its own. The performance is abysmal for what the game is. And basically everything needs to be reworked to continue development. Not even Inno would deny that the early systems were programmed by someone who lacked the skills and foresight needed. Which should be obvious by the fact that those systems are why everything gets delayed to death.

As for creativity, there just hasn't been much put into it in the last few years. But that's probably just burnout.

 

[Dr.Feelgood]

The game demonstrates lack of skill on its own. The performance is abysmal for what the game is. And basically everything needs to be reworked to continue development. Not even Inno would deny that the early systems were programmed by someone who lacked the skills and foresight needed. Which should be obvious by the fact that those systems are why everything gets delayed to death.

It takes a lot of guts to admit something like that. Considering Inno's blog's comment section was nuked rather than, say, doing the normal thing and either moderating a handful of negative/unnecessarily hateful comments, I doubt we will ever see such a thing happen. We're a lot more likely to see the game finished than we are to see the developer admit fault or start more than three consecutive posts without an apology or excuse.

 

[Draupnir7]

We're a lot more likely to see the game finished than we are to see the developer admit fault or start more than three consecutive posts without an apology or excuse.

We're a lot more likely to see the game optimized than we are to see Inno admit fault.

 

[Spitefire46]

I just stumbled upon this game today, but what happened here???

 

[Draupnir7]

I just stumbled upon this game today, but what happened here???

Every so often, someone either from the LT Discord or who's just encountering the game for the first time will ask why the people haunting this thread give Inno so much shit, and responses of varying intensity are given, mainly centering around how much money's been given for how much work and how we're either still on one daughter of Lilith or just finally getting more than the one city you start on and an empty world map after 7 years.

It's a whole thing.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

Y'all'd be in for quite the surprise if you ever actually asked Inno to describe her own code, but do go on, this imaginary version of her is quite entertaining

 

[ebonheart2319]

Y'all'd be in for quite the surprise if you ever actually asked Inno to describe her own code, but do go on, this imaginary version of her is quite entertaining

Are you insinuating Inno is in denial of how garbage her code is?
You must have a very low opinion of her if you think 3 years of code cleanup was just for funzies.
She needs that code cleaned up so she can monetize more elaborate mods like Bethesda.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

Are you insinuating Inno is in denial of how garbage her code is?
You must have a very low opinion of her if you think 3 years of code cleanup was just for funzies.
She needs that code cleaned up so she can monetize more elaborate mods like Bethesda.

Quite the contrary, I'm laughing at the takes of "Inno would never admit her code is bad".

 

[BBGunna]

Quite the contrary, I'm laughing at the takes of "Inno would never admit her code is bad".

Oh so she knows her work is fundamentally flawed but is either incapable or can't be bothered to fix it after so many years and dollars she's received, thanks for the clarification that's so much better!
/s

 

[tehlemon]

I just stumbled upon this game today, but what happened here???

Okay, serious advice time. Leave the thread. Go play the game until you start to get bored, then come back. Most of this drama is only going to be relevant for people who've been watching the project for a long time.

The game is fun for awhile, so go enjoy it for a bit before we drag you into any drama lol

Y'all'd be in for quite the surprise if you ever actually asked Inno to describe her own code, but do go on, this imaginary version of her is quite entertaining

Yeah, like, Inno has talked about the game code on the blog in the past. One of the major issues going into the last major update was that the entire encounter system had to be redesigned because of how bad the original system was. Acting like Inno would never admit fault or problems with the game code doesn't make a lot of sense at this point.

Doesn't really help the current state of things, but whatever.

 

[IvoryOwl]

Oh so she knows her work is fundamentally flawed but is either incapable or can't be bothered to fix it after so many years and dollars she's received, thanks for the clarification that's so much better!
/s

She has revamped several areas of the game over the years. Every time she opens up a new area for modding, that section of the code has to be cleaned up and refactored as well, to make templates more manageable. The problem is, the game stands on bad foundations (old Java version) and a serious revamp from top to bottom would be akin to tearing everything down and starting over from scratch.

The engine would have to change as well because Java 8, specifically the version she uses, is quite old too. However, that would imply learning new code and the gimmicks that come with the new engine. All things together, we're looking at probably a year (or more) dedicated exclusively to this endeavor. After that, comes porting all the existing content into the newer iteration, assuming she doesn't change her mind and scrap what was done for something else. It would be a long time before we'd actually see anything new.

Yeah... it's easier to keep things as is and revamp as needed, than to start from scratch.
I simply don't see Inno with the inclination or will to start over. If things ever get that dire, Inno will probably just pull the plug and move on to something else IMO.

 

[Sarkath]

The engine would have to change as well because Java 8, specifically the version she uses, is quite old too.

It's pretty easy to build Lilith's Throne with newer versions of Java. My Mac ARM fat JARs target Java 17, for example, and I didn't have to do too much to make that happen.

The main issue is that the removal of JavaFX from the JRE makes redistribution much harder. The only real option is to create "fat JARs" (that is, JARs that contain the entirety of OpenJFX and other dependencies). This will greatly inflate the size of the JAR, and it's a bit of an unrecommended hack job.

On the other hand, Java 8 is easy. It's still the version recommended by Oracle to Windows users (Inno's primary audience) and it skirts around all of that mess by having all that stuff built in. I really can't blame her for sticking with it, seeing as she has to deal with an issue that Sun/Oracle caused and that they aren't exactly making it easy to work around. The overemphasis on "write once, run everywhere" made it so that handling mandatory native libraries is often unnecessarily messy.

 

[Carl0sDanger]

It would be a long time before we'd actually see anything new.

As opposed to ... ?

Look, if building a new engine from the ground up is what's needed to complete the core game, that's just what needs to be done. ATM though, forward progress seems primarily stalled by a phenomenon known as "Inno not working".

If we ever get to a stage where Inno is actually working along the path laid out in her own development roadmap with a level of application anywhere in the vicinity of what she is committed to, it seems likely to me that she'll start running into brick walls where the engine just won't let her implement what she's trying to implement. That is, she'll be trying to add new areas and scenes and the engine won't support that.

But we are not in that situation.

If all Inno intends to do is hang out on Discord, add races and items made by other people and do the occaisional bugfix, the engine is letting her do that just fine.

 

[BobCarter]

To be fair they do randomly seem to put in real effort, then go dark for like a year or so.
Like seeing 4-5 updates in a semi-reasonable time frame then nothing for like 7+ months.

 

[BBGunna]

She has revamped several areas of the game over the years. Every time she opens up a new area for modding, that section of the code has to be cleaned up and refactored as well, to make templates more manageable. The problem is, the game stands on bad foundations (old Java version) and a serious revamp from top to bottom would be akin to tearing everything down and starting over from scratch.

The engine would have to change as well because Java 8, specifically the version she uses, is quite old too. However, that would imply learning new code and the gimmicks that come with the new engine. All things together, we're looking at probably a year (or more) dedicated exclusively to this endeavor. After that, comes porting all the existing content into the newer iteration, assuming she doesn't change her mind and scrap what was done for something else. It would be a long time before we'd actually see anything new.

Yeah... it's easier to keep things as is and revamp as needed, than to start from scratch.
I simply don't see Inno with the inclination or will to start over. If things ever get that dire, Inno will probably just pull the plug and move on to something else IMO.

Oh I understand this, I was more reacting to the assertion that Inno knowing her code is shit somehow makes it better. In the end shit code is shit code and you're right that at this point starting from scratch is basically a nonstarter at least if she wants to keep the current momentum and funds she has now. Still in the long run I can't help but feel we're gonna hit that point where the flawed foundation ultimately makes it impossible to build practically and the whole thing collapses. A rework feels more like an inevitability than an option but at that point Inno is more likely to just fuck off and abandon ship.

 

[Paril]

I can't for the life of me figure out how to bring slaves in combat. Can anyone explain how?

 

[Kallumin]

I can't for the life of me figure out how to bring slaves in combat. Can anyone explain how?

You have to turn the option to bring "companions" with you on in the game menu, it's off by default.

 

[Paril]

You have to turn the option to bring "companions" with you on in the game menu, it's off by default.

Thanks. There was nothing about it on the wiki so I just fumbled around

 

[NajaNaga]

Thanks. There was nothing about it on the wiki so I just fumbled around

Just in general I wouldn't rely on the wiki too much anymore, if you look at "recent changes" it's gotten pretty dead and stuff like the Races page hasn't been touched in forever. Anything on there is likely to be multiple years out of date, for the parts of LT that have changed at all since then at least.