Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.11.3 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[IvoryOwl]

Zethin
I don't want to pressure you or anything but am I glad to see someone from the community picking up the mantle and doing more extensive mods like this. This is exactly the kind of content the game needs ATM. It gives us something to do while we wait for more official content, which, quite honestly, I think will be a weight off the developer's shoulders right now.

That being said, is there a way to download and install your fork? Or is still "under wraps"? I ask because unless it's something like download, drag+drop, some people have absolutely no idea what to do (myself included).

 

[Zethin]

Zethin
I don't want to pressure you or anything but am I glad to see someone from the community picking up the mantle and doing more extensive mods like this. This is exactly the kind of content the game needs ATM. It gives us something to do while we wait for more official content, which, quite honestly, I think will be a weight off the developer's shoulders right now.

That being said, is there a way to download and install your fork? Or is still "under wraps"? I ask because unless it's something like download, drag+drop, some people have absolutely no idea what to do (myself included).

It will be drag and drop, no complicated install process. I've only just got the first quest semi-functioning, so it's still a long way off.

 

[Pencil8526]

And there is a VERY valid reason for that. The PC being enslaved would effectively be a game over, so any content designed around the concept would have to be game ending. The reason for this is it permanently puts an end to the game's main quest by making the PC fail in their mission to either liberate or conquer the realm Lilith controls, as is the ultimate goal.

And it is indeed a permanent state, there is no going back once this is done. It also requires that game overs are enabled in the settings because that's what it is, the first content that can end the game.

I'm going to be honest here... I don't see the problem? Like at all?

Like if you could only play LT in an ironman mode where you can only have one save, then yeah that'd be a problem. But, like, that's not the case? Separate save files is a rather basic feature that that exists and which usage of is common sense.

For instance, if Inno came out tomorrow and reveals she's implemented a whole bunch of content for those enslaved by Vengar, how would that impact save files where the player's avoided getting enslaved by Vengar?

What's stopping players from having one save where they're character's free, and another where they're enslaved?

I know it works cause that's what I did with Vengar. I've got my main save file where my character's free and ready to continue the storyline when it finally comes out, and I've got an extra save where that same character has been enslaved by Vengar.

If you want to get enslaved, yet don't want to lock yourself out of storyline content, then you just make a separate save file. That way, when you want to experience certain content, you just go to that specific save. Its that easy.

So... really, what's the problem? Is there any reason besides "it locks out further storyline content solely for this specific save file"? Because, to be frank, that's completely irrelevant when you can create new save files with a single button click and can have as many of them as you want.

 

[PussyPassAnon]

Seems I was mistaken in my assertion that modded races couldn't be spawned in alleyways. Maybe it has to do with how I've setup my racial spawn settings in options. Either way, I'd like to apologize for my mistaken jab at Inno on that notion. Still waiting for the fix for outfit mods not working on said encounters, though. I haven't figured out how to code in fetishes to be applied to modded races upon character generation (without tearing apart the game code), so I need that functional to serve as a work-around.

EDIT: "Maybe it has to do with how I've setup my racial spawn settings in options."
Turns out that's what it was. So...

BUG:
Clicking one of the "set all spawn frequencies" buttons at the top of the "Furry Preferences" menu still affects the race's spawn frequency, even if you've set the modded race to have this disabled. I always set mine to "Off" and then work from there, so this bug caused my modded race to follow suit and switch to "Off" as well; this caused me to never be able to spawn them in alleyways, even when I had every other race switched off. This can be verified by noting the changes to the properties.xml file as you adjust the settings.

 

[alex2011]

I'm going to be honest here... I don't see the problem? Like at all?

Like if you could only play LT in an ironman mode where you can only have one save, then yeah that'd be a problem. But, like, that's not the case? Separate save files is a rather basic feature that that exists and which usage of is common sense.

For instance, if Inno came out tomorrow and reveals she's implemented a whole bunch of content for those enslaved by Vengar, how would that impact save files where the player's avoided getting enslaved by Vengar?

What's stopping players from having one save where they're character's free, and another where they're enslaved?

I know it works cause that's what I did with Vengar. I've got my main save file where my character's free and ready to continue the storyline when it finally comes out, and I've got an extra save where that same character has been enslaved by Vengar.

If you want to get enslaved, yet don't want to lock yourself out of storyline content, then you just make a separate save file. That way, when you want to experience certain content, you just go to that specific save. Its that easy.

So... really, what's the problem? Is there any reason besides "it locks out further storyline content solely for this specific save file"? Because, to be frank, that's completely irrelevant when you can create new save files with a single button click and can have as many of them as you want.

The problem is anything that gets in the way of the main quest.

First of all, it doesn't matter if you can save separately because there are people who, like me, stumble into things without knowing what we have to look for ward to or are unknowingly unprepared for it, sometimes without a point where we are able to save before the possibility of a game over scenario.

I just had to start a new game because my source, not F95 or Inno, finally updated to 3.19 and running my save from 3.13 had an unfortunate bug put all of my stats, which were maxed out, at 1 so I was guaranteed to lose any fight.

If I hadn't already completed any content with a possibility of getting in the way of the main quest, I would have been guaranteed to be permanently stuck in the main quest and I was completely unaware of this being an issue until I had already lost a fight. If that had been against Vengar, game over.

Second, the whole point of the game is to defeat Lilith and either liberate or conquer her realm, so any content after being enslaved makes no sense. You have failed in your entire purpose of being there, so it is a game over situation. A game over situation should mean...well, game over.

Third, that's the reason you have to enable game overs to even be enslaved by Vengar, otherwise it just doesn't happen whether you lose or not. It doesn't make any sense to not allow Vengar to do this and yet allow others to, which is equivalent to allowing the player to rape their own offspring on the alley tile they spawn in either by defeating them on the first encounter instead of using peaceful solutions or hitting the sex option in a subsequent encounter, but then not allowing rape when they move in with you as a free guest without the incest fetish, which is the only reason it is rape in the first place, they accept sex if they have that.

I'm sorry, but it boils down to this is just not that kind of game. If you want to be the slave, there are other games where it can be done. The only compromise in this game that would work is slavery of the roleplay variety, in other words, that isn't actual slavery.

 

[IvoryOwl]

The only compromise in this game that would work is slavery of the roleplay variety, in other words, that isn't actual slavery.

To be honest, as someone who likes the idea of a slave PC but understands the logistics and technicalities of why it can't be a thing, I'd be down for this. (Obligatory "Not right now but further down the line, after the Fields.")

 

[Zethin]

Second, the whole point of the game is to defeat Lilith and either liberate or conquer her realm, so any content after being enslaved makes no sense. You have failed in your entire purpose of being there, so it is a game over situation. A game over situation should mean...well, game over

This is my biggest reservation with adding in PC slavery. The technical aspect really wouldn't be that hard. It'd take at most a couple of days to add. It's the fact that you become completely detached from all content in the game.

Something I've considered as a solution is a side quest where the PC is temporarily enslaved and later escapes. But as far as permanent slavery goes, I can't think of a good way to develop any content on that end.

I don't personally agree that the roleplay situation is a good compromise. At that point it's just BDSM, and I don't think that's what the crowd wanting this added in are looking for.

I'll continue thinking on this some more, but I'm open to ideas on implementations for this, because I know it's a pretty highly desired feature.

 

[alex2011]

To be honest, as someone who likes the idea of a slave PC but understands the logistics and technicalities of why it can't be a thing, I'd be down for this. (Obligatory "Not right now but further down the line, after the Fields.")

As someone not totally against the idea, but that wouldn't go out of my way to get it implemented, I have to agree. I think roleplay slavery could work very well. It provides the experience of being on the other end of the collar while not going against the game's core, the best of both worlds.

This is my biggest reservation with adding in PC slavery. The technical aspect really wouldn't be that hard. It'd take at most a couple of days to add. It's the fact that you become completely detached from all content in the game.

Something I've considered as a solution is a side quest where the PC is temporarily enslaved and later escapes. But as far as permanent slavery goes, I can't think of a good way to develop any content on that end.

I don't personally agree that the roleplay situation is a good compromise. At that point it's just BDSM, and I don't think that's what the crowd wanting this added in are looking for.

I'll continue thinking on this some more, but I'm open to ideas on implementations for this, because I know it's a pretty highly desired feature.

BDSM basically sums up what I was saying, I just don't see it being a thing from a narrative perspective as, like you said, it closes off the rest of the game from a story standpoint. Permanent slavery would mean we can no longer fight Lilith or the elder lilin because we are now at the beck and call of another, potentially loyal, person. If the person who enslaves us is a loyalist to Lilith or sees benefit in keeping the status quo, they would never allow us to oppose her.

 

[tehlemon]

This is my biggest reservation with adding in PC slavery. The technical aspect really wouldn't be that hard. It'd take at most a couple of days to add. It's the fact that you become completely detached from all content in the game.

You must be new here. I'd like to welcome you to the "laughing at how absurdly long it takes to update simple things despite this being the dev's full time job" club. We have punch every Sunday, if it shows up.

That'd be like, three months minimum. The Nyan rework is probably a similar level of content and its at like, four months and only *maybe* 2/3rds done. And its... not the best writing in the game.

Throwing in my 2c: The PC becoming a slave is pretty pointless. Should more submissive content be added, absolutely. But making the PC a slave removes any agency from the player and basically immediately ends the game. At that point, all the player interaction would basically be "get told to do random thing, either do it or refuse. Probably have sex either way." on repeat. Even that's more in-depth than it'd be worth dedicating resources to.

 

[Zethin]

You must be new here. I'd like to welcome you to the "laughing at how absurdly long it takes to update simple things despite this being the dev's full time job" club. We have punch every Sunday, if it shows up.

I can show you how easy it is to implement if that would prove it to you. The programming isn't that hard at all. All it takes is setting a public boolean in the character file, e.g.

// PlayerCharacter.java
...
private boolean isEnslaved = false;

public boolean isEnslaved() {
    return this.isEnslaved;
}
...
// Then in any dialogue checks (e.g. talking with someone):
// DominionPlaces.java
...
public Response getResponse(int responseTab, int index) {
    if (Main.game.getPlayer().isEnlaved()) {
        if (index == 1) {
            ...
            } else {
            return null;
        }
    }
    if (index == 1) {
        ...
    } else {
        return null;
    }
}

That's literally all the code you need to create player slavery. The rest of it is just writing dialogue and copy+paste for other NPCs, areas, etc. It isn't hard, people have other reasons for not doing it, as I said.

Edit:

Of course, if you want to make it so you change when they are enslaved, you just add a simple setter. Again, not difficult:

//PlayerCharacter.java

public void setEnslaved(boolean enslaved) {
    this.isEnslaved = enslaved;
}

//Literally anywhere else:
...
Main.game.getPlayer().setEnslaved(true);
...
}

 

[PussyPassAnon]

At that point, all the player interaction would basically be "get told to do random thing, either do it or refuse. Probably have sex either way." on repeat. Even that's more in-depth than it'd be worth dedicating resources to.

So, the bad end for Rat Warrens, but change the involved NPCs and rewrite the setting?

I can show you how easy it is to implement if that would prove it to you. The programming isn't that hard at all.

That's the joke. We know a lot of this is simple, but tehl's point was that Inno overcomplicates the updates; it becomes something needlessly tedious and it additionally causes bugs to manifest every time they do something new. That's why he thinks you're new here.

 

[anon707]

The closest thing is to do Axel's quest, challenge Vengar and then lose and he'll turn you into his personal slave. Though if you want a custom char there, you're out of luck, you get turned into a rat woman.

wth version are you playing? that route has been removed for ages now. the only slave route there is murk's.

 

[alex2011]

You must be new here. I'd like to welcome you to the "laughing at how absurdly long it takes to update simple things despite this being the dev's full time job" club. We have punch every Sunday, if it shows up.

That'd be like, three months minimum. The Nyan rework is probably a similar level of content and its at like, four months and only *maybe* 2/3rds done. And its... not the best writing in the game.

Throwing in my 2c: The PC becoming a slave is pretty pointless. Should more submissive content be added, absolutely. But making the PC a slave removes any agency from the player and basically immediately ends the game. At that point, all the player interaction would basically be "get told to do random thing, either do it or refuse. Probably have sex either way." on repeat. Even that's more in-depth than it'd be worth dedicating resources to.

Keep in mind the whole 'absurdly long' thing is specific to Inno, no dev who knows what they are doing and is actually doing work takes anywhere near as long as Inno unless there are severe complications getting in the way on the level that Inno caused with the elemental revamp, the kind that breaks literally everything. Zethin seems to hit both the 'knows what they are doing' and 'actually working' marks quite nicely, unlike Inno.

On the player slavery thing, that's basically the issue with it, especially if the person in charge happens to be loyal to Lilith because that means there is no way to defeat Lilith. I agree that it is possible to do something in between that doesn't force the player into a situation where the main quest, the whole point of the game, is not endangered, kind of like we have with Amber, whose collar I use to trigger the side quest for sealed clothing.

So, the bad end for Rat Warrens, but change the involved NPCs and rewrite the setting?



That's the joke. We know a lot of this is simple, but tehl's point was that Inno overcomplicates the updates; it becomes something needlessly tedious and it additionally causes bugs to manifest every time they do something new. That's why he thinks you're new here.

Basically, yeah. I don't even keep the game over setting on specifically because the Rat Warrens can do that. I prefer my game left in a beatable state for when the main quest is eventually finished, by whose hand is TBD.

 

[tehlemon]

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Just to be clear, that was a joke. I know how easy it should be to add. Pretty much everything that's been added outside the race rework should have been easy to add. All the writing that went into Nyan's rework would have taken me a weekend, on a hobbyist schedule, while I'm currently addicted to a game taking most of my time.

Still took like four months while not being complete (or well written...).

 

[Pencil8526]

First of all, it doesn't matter if you can save separately because there are people who, like me, stumble into things without knowing what we have to look for ward to or are unknowingly unprepared for it, sometimes without a point where we are able to save before the possibility of a game over scenario.

1.) That's what autosaves are for. Pretty sure that feature is automatically enabled by default.

2.) How? How in god's name do you stumble into areas without being prepared? All the really dangerous areas are clearly marked as such. Shaded or colored squares, big warnings in the description spelling what's there and potential consequences, giant glaring warnings across your screen, etc. They're really no excuse for this. When major/dangerous events are about to take place the game tells you.

You don't "stumble" into an imp fortress on accident, or into Vengar place by mistake, or into the alleyways. Hell, even the fast travel spells out how many dangerous tiles you'll go through.

If you march into a dangerous area without making a backup save, that's entirely on you.

I just had to start a new game because my source, not F95 or Inno, finally updated to 3.19 and running my save from 3.13 had an unfortunate bug put all of my stats, which were maxed out, at 1 so I was guaranteed to lose any fight.

If I hadn't already completed any content with a possibility of getting in the way of the main quest, I would have been guaranteed to be permanently stuck in the main quest and I was completely unaware of this being an issue until I had already lost a fight. If that had been against Vengar, game over.

1.) That sounds like a technical issue, not one with the content itself. Transferring saves is by its very nature risky.
2.) Did you have game overs enabled? If not, then no, it wouldn't have been game over.

Second, the whole point of the game is to defeat Lilith and either liberate or conquer her realm, so any content after being enslaved makes no sense. You have failed in your entire purpose of being there, so it is a game over situation. A game over situation should mean...well, game over.

And yet things like Vengar are in the game anyway, and as far as I'm aware no ones raised a massive fuss over it. Hell, the fact that there is an option to enable game overs at all implies Inno plans to and more of them in the future, so why having one of them being slavery is such a bad thing I don't understand.

Third, that's the reason you have to enable game overs to even be enslaved by Vengar, otherwise it just doesn't happen whether you lose or not. It doesn't make any sense to not allow Vengar to do this and yet allow others to, which is equivalent to allowing the player to rape their own offspring on the alley tile they spawn in either by defeating them on the first encounter instead of using peaceful solutions or hitting the sex option in a subsequent encounter, but then not allowing rape when they move in with you as a free guest without the incest fetish, which is the only reason it is rape in the first place, they accept sex if they have that.

Once again, the fact that there is an option to enable game overs at all implies Inno plans to and more of them in the future, so why having one of them being slavery is such a bad thing I don't understand.

I'm sorry, but it boils down to this is just not that kind of game.

Buddy, I'm not demanding that the entire game be theme-swapped or something. I'm just asking for a bit of game over content. The Elder Scrolls is also a power-fantasy, but when you killed the wrong NPC in Morrowind and doomed the world, the game still gave you the option of continuing anyway.

 

[thefetussundae]

This is my biggest reservation with adding in PC slavery. The technical aspect really wouldn't be that hard. It'd take at most a couple of days to add. It's the fact that you become completely detached from all content in the game.

Something I've considered as a solution is a side quest where the PC is temporarily enslaved and later escapes. But as far as permanent slavery goes, I can't think of a good way to develop any content on that end.

I don't personally agree that the roleplay situation is a good compromise. At that point it's just BDSM, and I don't think that's what the crowd wanting this added in are looking for.

I'll continue thinking on this some more, but I'm open to ideas on implementations for this, because I know it's a pretty highly desired feature.

I don't really want any more slavery content, in my opinion there aren't enough ways to make money without slavery currently, but I would think adding it as an endgame quest with the option to escape by following a separate questline would fix those issues, right?

 

[alex2011]

Just to be clear, that was a joke. I know how easy it should be to add. Pretty much everything that's been added outside the race rework should have been easy to add. All the writing that went into Nyan's rework would have taken me a weekend, on a hobbyist schedule, while I'm currently addicted to a game taking most of my time.

Still took like four months while not being complete (or well written...).

It probably would have taken me the better part of a day. That said, when I start writing, I don't stop until I have completely written down the idea I was writing on, for anything short of being forced to do so. I have been known to spend literally an entire day, a full 24 hours, pounding away at my keyboard once my creative juices start flowing.

1.) That's what autosaves are for. Pretty sure that feature is automatically enabled by default.

2.) How? How in god's name do you stumble into areas without being prepared? All the really dangerous areas are clearly marked as such. Shaded or colored squares, big warnings in the description spelling what's there and potential consequences, giant glaring warnings across your screen, etc. They're really no excuse for this. When major/dangerous events are about to take place the game tells you.

You don't "stumble" into an imp fortress on accident, or into Vengar place by mistake, or into the alleyways. Hell, even the fast travel spells out how many dangerous tiles you'll go through.

If you march into a dangerous area without making a backup save, that's entirely on you.


1.) That sounds like a technical issue, not one with the content itself. Transferring saves is by its very nature risky.
2.) Did you have game overs enabled? If not, then no, it wouldn't have been game over.


And yet things like Vengar are in the game anyway, and as far as I'm aware no ones raised a massive fuss over it. Hell, the fact that there is an option to enable game overs at all implies Inno plans to and more of them in the future, so why having one of them being slavery is such a bad thing I don't understand.


Once again, the fact that there is an option to enable game overs at all implies Inno plans to and more of them in the future, so why having one of them being slavery is such a bad thing I don't understand.


Buddy, I'm not demanding that the entire game be theme-swapped or something. I'm just asking for a bit of game over content. The Elder Scrolls is also a power-fantasy, but when you killed the wrong NPC in Morrowind and doomed the world, the game still gave you the option of continuing anyway.

1.) That's what autosaves are for. Pretty sure that feature is automatically enabled by default.

Ah yes, the thing that may come too late to save you. Literally the only kind of save that can save you in case you run into content unprepared is a manual save, which you may still fail to do in time before triggering content that leads to a game over scenario.

I have had this happen on multiple occasions, not a game over fight, but one that ultimately set me back quite a bit.

2.) How? How in god's name do you stumble into areas without being prepared? All the really dangerous areas are clearly marked as such. Shaded or colored squares, big warnings in the description spelling what's there and potential consequences, giant glaring warnings across your screen, etc. They're really no excuse for this. When major/dangerous events are about to take place the game tells you.

I ask myself this question every time it happens, I still don't know the answer. In this game, it's probably because the game only warns you in general, it doesn't tell you where you should be for or how far off you are from a winnable situation. There was also a player a few pages back who went willingly into the Brax fight way underleveled. If he had done that to the Rat Warrens, he would be starting over by now because that can lead to a game over, AKA player enslaved, scenario.

You don't "stumble" into an imp fortress on accident, or into Vengar place by mistake, or into the alleyways. Hell, even the fast travel spells out how many dangerous tiles you'll go through.

You don't stumble into those by accident, but there are players who rush the game that would likely end up rushing into the Vengar fight or the imps and the fortress isn't the only challenging part there, there's also the random imp gangs that CAN overwhelm an unprepared player.

1.) That sounds like a technical issue, not one with the content itself. Transferring saves is by its very nature risky.
2.) Did you have game overs enabled? If not, then no, it wouldn't have been game over.

As I said, it turned out to be a bug, which yes, is a technical issue. I'm aware of the risk, especially in the current stage of development since we are in the early stages still. No, I did not have game overs enabled, but that doesn't matter since this scenario was completely hypothetical after the fact that it happened and I had already completed the Rat Warrens, so far the only active game over scenario, on that save. As I said, if I had gone into the Rat Warrens after the switch from 3.13 to 3.19, this would have proven a game ending bug because it would have put me in a game over scenario.

And yet things like Vengar are in the game anyway, and as far as I'm aware no ones raised a massive fuss over it. Hell, the fact that there is an option to enable game overs at all implies Inno plans to and more of them in the future, so why having one of them being slavery is such a bad thing I don't understand.

Once again, the fact that there is an option to enable game overs at all implies Inno plans to and more of them in the future, so why having one of them being slavery is such a bad thing I don't understand.

And things like Vengar are gated behind the game over toggle, you can't be enslaved if the toggle is disabled. Nobody has raised a fuss because it does what it is supposed to, effectively end the game. Player enslavement is treated as a game over because it is one. Yes, it does imply more will be possible in future builds, assuming there are future builds since Inno seems unwilling to release the next build, and all of them will be game overs gated by the toggle. It is a bad thing because it can be stumbled upon either entirely by accident or through a player thinking they are good enough to do it only to find out they are too unprepared to succeed. Then you really will start seeing a fuss.

Buddy, I'm not demanding that the entire game be theme-swapped or something. I'm just asking for a bit of game over content. The Elder Scrolls is also a power-fantasy, but when you killed the wrong NPC in Morrowind and doomed the world, the game still gave you the option of continuing anyway.

I'm not saying you demanded anything, I'm just stating a simple fact, this game is not meant for the player to play the slave, it is meant for the player to get rid of the ruling power and free the people or to take over as the new ruler, which is the opposite of what you are suggesting, especially if the master who buys the PC is a loyalist as that means the PC will never be allowed to remain in opposition to Lilith.

 

[Pencil8526]

Ah yes, the thing that may come too late to save you. Literally the only kind of save that can save you in case you run into content unprepared is a manual save, which you may still fail to do in time before triggering content that leads to a game over scenario.

I have had this happen on multiple occasions, not a game over fight, but one that ultimately set me back quite a bit.

1.) What? That's nonsense. You get an autosave every time you enter an area. If you continued on and got into a fight you couldn't win, then autosave would set you right back to when you first entered. At which point you can just turn around and leave.
2.)You can disable game over scenarios. I don't know what you're failing to understand about this. You can disable game overs. So even if you find yourself in a situation where you lose its not going to be game over unless you specifically set it so game overs could happen.
3.) Again, how? How do you not manual save prior to to entering dangerous areas when it tells you its a dangerous area?

I ask myself this question every time it happens, I still don't know the answer.

So you just... don't ever feel like manual saving? Or something?

There was also a player a few pages back who went willingly into the Brax fight way underleveled. If he had done that to the Rat Warrens, he would be starting over by now because that can lead to a game over, AKA player enslaved, scenario.

Not if game over is disabled. Like seriously, turning off a setting isn't rocket science. In fact, I'm pretty sure its off by default.

You don't stumble into those by accident, but there are players who rush the game that would likely end up rushing into the Vengar fight or the imps and the fortress isn't the only challenging part there, there's also the random imp gangs that CAN overwhelm an unprepared player.

1.) Autosave still works, despite your claim of uselessness. For instance, if the player loses to an Imp gang, loading the autosave will revert the player right back to when they entered submission. No problem.
2.) Most players are cautious enough to use manual saves, especially if they're rushing content.
3.) Again, the game literally showers them in warnings. If they decide not to heed those warnings that's up to them.
4.) Once more with the disabling bad ends. If you want bad ends, you need to enable the setting, otherwise you physically can't get a bad end. Like at all, its impossible.
5.) You're acting as if I want every single loss to instantly enslave the player. You did read the part where I told you I didn't want to shift the core of the game, right? It'd work just fine if enslavement was restricted to bosses, or even a specific boss, kinda like, oh I don't know... what Inno did with Vengar.

Like man, we have a bad end in game already, and shockingly, it hasn't destroyed the game's themes, or ruined its content, or resulted in mass outrage, or whatever catastrophe you seem to think adding another bad end will cause. It can be done, because you know, it already has been.

As I said, it turned out to be a bug, which yes, is a technical issue. I'm aware of the risk, especially in the current stage of development since we are in the early stages still. No, I did not have game overs enabled, but that doesn't matter since this scenario was completely hypothetical after the fact that it happened and I had already completed the Rat Warrens, so far the only active game over scenario, on that save. As I said, if I had gone into the Rat Warrens after the switch from 3.13 to 3.19, this would have proven a game ending bug because it would have put me in a game over scenario.

So let me get this clear. We shouldn't add any more bad ends what-so-ever, even with all the warnings, safety nets in the form of auto and manual saves, and content settings; on the off chance that someone someone might, while transferring saves -an inherently risky proposition- on a blue moon, suffer game breaking bug.



To be frank, that is the most ridiculous chain of logic I've ever heard. You're reaching. Really reaching.

And things like Vengar are gated behind the game over toggle, you can't be enslaved if the toggle is disabled. Nobody has raised a fuss because it does what it is supposed to, effectively end the game. Player enslavement is treated as a game over because it is one. Yes, it does imply more will be possible in future builds, assuming there are future builds since Inno seems unwilling to release the next build, and all of them will be game overs gated by the toggle. It is a bad thing because it can be stumbled upon either entirely by accident or through a player thinking they are good enough to do it only to find out they are too unprepared to succeed. Then you really will start seeing a fuss.

...So have slavery be gated behind the game over toggle as well. I feel like that should be fairly obvious? To be honest I was under assumption that that's what we were discussing in the first place?

Again, I'm not seeing how a player that has enabled bad ends would be outraged at finding bad ends. That's kinda the whole point of enabling bad ends.

this game is not meant for the player to play the slave,

And Marrowind is not meant for the player to fail the main quest, but the people working on the game were kind enough to add the option to do so anyway. So if the player wanted to be a serial killer who attacked anyone they saw, they could, even if it went directly against the game's theme of the player being the titular hero.

And yeah, most games are meant for something and have their own specific theme, but to insist that that means you're is not allowed to experience extra content, even if its 'against the grain' so to speak, is rather close-minded.

 

[joeys88]

You don't stumble into those by accident, but there are players who rush the game that would likely end up rushing into the Vengar fight or the imps and the fortress isn't the only challenging part there, there's also the random imp gangs that CAN overwhelm an unprepared player.

Cool. Live with the consequences. ID didn't remove dying from Doom because the doomslayer is supposed to be some demon slaying prodigy. Play a JRPG and skip leveling up as much as possible and then complain when a boss beats your ass too. If you rush into something like Vengar or the Imp Fortresses you deserve every bit of whats coming to you. Ignoring warnings is entirely on you. Bad judgement is entirely on you. Poor saving habits is entirely on you.

I have had this happen on multiple occasions, not a game over fight, but one that ultimately set me back quite a bit.

If consequences of a fight bother you then why have combat at all. Maybe they can make a mode for you called alpha mode where everyone is just so enamored by you they submit instantly.

I'm just stating a simple fact, this game is not meant for the player to play the slave, it is meant for the player to get rid of the ruling power and free the people or to take over as the new ruler, which is the opposite of what you are suggesting, especially if the master who buys the PC is a loyalist as that means the PC will never be allowed to remain in opposition to Lilith.

So when we do eventually fight lilith, losing the fight will just result in us getting tossed out and nothing bad happens, because "it is not meant for the player". That certainly isn't immersion breaking at all. Glad to hear she'll just give us a pat on the back and say "better luck next time".

Doomslayer isn't meant to die, so the demons shouldn't be able to kill you. Recette isn't meant to lose her family shop, so failing to pay off the loan shouldn't be possible. Luka will unite the humans/monsters, so getting raped and kidnapped by a monster is against the purpose of the game.

The game has plenty of material that doesn't play into the conflict between the PC and Lilith. Children are completely unnecessary to the story but are in the game anyway. Transforming the character is unnecessary to the story yet is in the game anyway. Turning lilaya's mansion into the multibillion flame franchise McMilkers is unnecessary, but thats there too. Your vision of the game conflicts with Inno's, who obviously made what you said the game isn't "meant" to have. The game was originally a sandbox, with main storyline added on later. The meaning of the player in games is up to the creator. Why is it a foregone conclusion that the player will defeat Lilith? Why is it a foregone conclusion that the player wants to defeat Lilith? In the Zelda timelines, one of the games is set in a timeline where Link was defeated by Ganon. In Cave Story, you can decide to abandon the island to its fate and flee instead, which allows the Doctor to continue with his plan unopposed.

While I'm not a fan of the Vengar slave end(Our character has the ability to enchant/disenchant things and transform themselves, they should be able to escape given time), I don't see how its against the themes of a game where slavery is commonplace.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

So let me get this clear. We shouldn't add any more bad ends what-so-ever, even with all the warnings, safety nets in the form of auto and manual saves, and content settings; on the off chance that someone someone might, while transferring saves -an inherently risky proposition- on a blue moon, suffer game breaking bug.

Not even over a bug in this case, but the classic 'forgot to turn enchant cap back off before loading a character with hilariously OP gear'