Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.11.3 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[tehlemon]

Though I also do hate the “hey there’s going to be a delay and another and another” thing, I think we at least have to give credit to Innoxia where credits are due because Inno isn’t actually just wasting time doing nothing.

I'm her customer, not her friend. The credit due is the credit she'll get when she actualyl releases 0.4.0. The actual content, not just other people's work.

From 0.3.20 to 0.4, it took Inno ~1.5 months to develop. I decided to flip through the Github history page out of boredom, and between these two versions, there were 347 changed files with 19,664 additions and 2,638 deletions, meaning 19,664 new lines of code and 2,638 deleted ones (according to Github).

Around 20000 lines of code within 90 days is around 222 lines of code per day.

That would be meaningful if 0.4.0 wasn't almost entirely a contributor release. And those files you're talking about, how much of that is fields content she's been working on for the last 11 months. Not 90 days. Then it's like 50 lines per day. And really, 222 lines in a day if you have a plan and know what you're doing isn't impressive.

The problem is *NOT* that she isn't working now. We know she suddenly is. The problem is the year of mostly nothing.

Also, measure productivity by line count is so fucking stupid. That's such a meaningless statistic.

Now, I barely understand Java, and I don’t know how much code actually translates to content, but just hear me out here.

Obviously, things like items have specific formats, they could be copied & pasted. Though “copy & paste & change variables” still take time, maybe not so much thinking, sure, but repetitive work is still work. Think of gradient colors, for example. It’s not like there’s some magic function that's like “Woosh! Now, these colors suddenly blend appealingly.”

There literally is a magic function that's something like “Woosh! Now, these colors suddenly blend appealingly.”

It was added by a contributor years ago. Its credited in the code's comments lol

Searching for the word “Elis”, 155 files could be found; searching for “Fields”, 152. This means there were around 300 files that were changed (a little less counting the repeated names in paths) relating to the new world map if we only counted Foloi and Elis.

Again, how many of thsoe are new? And how many of those are from the last year of her "working on fields"

And if they are new, and she's able to get that much done in a short time, what the fuck was she doing for the last year?

You also have to consider what designing a game like this actually ensues besides coding. Excluding contributions, Inno, being the only dev, has to write the story, the sex scenes, the flavor text of all the items, tiles, the dialogues of encounters whether sexual or not, character descriptions… And you can’t just pop these out of thin air, you have to come up with them first.

And that’s just the “writing” part. What about debugging, which can take days or even weeks before you can even identify what’s causing it? What about developing and implementing the mechanics? What about improving existing features? What about modding support? Don’t forget that Inno is writing on plain Java from the ground up, meaning she also has to write the entire engine the game runs on.

To sum it up, I think work IS being done. Maybe the development focus is questionable, maybe Inno not hiring other programmers to help is dumb, insert some other good arguments or questions here that I can’t think of right now.

You know you're saying this specifically to a bunch of developers and writers, right? lol

I know exactly how much time it takes to write that stuff. I've literally written that stuff for other games, including my own that's in the works.

It doesn't take 11 months.

What I do know though, is Inno is definitely not a lazy potato sitting on a couch doing nothing all day. She may be spending tons and tons of time staring at the screen, though we just can’t be sure because we don’t have a spy camera on her.

So I think we can at least be a little less harsh on her. Words do hurt. And when you’re working hard but people don’t believe you and explanations would be too technical to understand, I think this can quickly burn someone out.

She has flaws, yes, I’m not saying we have to be the nicest people to her for missing deadlines after deadlines, but we don’t have to absolutely trash on her with words either. Even refraining just a tiny bit can help sometimes.

Again, I'm her customer. I'm not her friend.

There's absolutely no way I'm going to be friends with someone who lies as often as she does.

The issue is absolutely not that she's now spending time reworking the shit systems in this game. We all agree that should be done. The problem is that she lies constantly about what she's working on. She specifically said months ago that she's going to stop revamping systems, get the content out, and then start with the structural changes to the game. And then immediately started revamping systems.

And yet again, none of that matters, because I'm her customer. Not her friend.

 

[Sarkath]

And really, 222 lines in a day if you have a plan and know what you're doing isn't impressive.

Don't forget about the SVG files. Since those are text they count toward git diff --stat as well.

But yeah, ultimately KLOC is a meaningless metric.

 

[tehlemon]

Don't forget about the SVG files. Since those are text they count toward git diff --stat as well.

But yeah, ultimately KLOC is a meaningless metric.

As one of those heathens (according to my coworker, but he sucks so don't listen to him!) who puts all my closing }s on their own lines, I agree. I've got color coding set up for my IDE that I like using that works best with them split up. If you're going by KLOC as your metric, that's just going to pad out the fuck out of my code.

On Friday I wrote an 11000 line powershell script in a few hours (yey imaging scripts!). I guess I did 20 days of work, based on that posters thinking.

My previous post was like 60 lines, and that was in paragraph formatting. If you broke sentences out it'd be like 200. Based on that previous poster's way of thinking, writing a single forum post is equivalent to Inno working two hours.

Honestly, that just makes their take more insulting to Inno that I've been lmao

 

[feelotraveller]

I'm her customer, not her friend.

No, you are neither.

First up, given what we have heard from you day in day out - sometimes multiple times a day - for several months you would have to be absolutely fucking stupid to be financially supporting the project.

Even if you are that stupid any money you are/have given to Inno was a donation and does not lead to the entitlement you profess.

 

[tehlemon]

No, you are neither.

First up, given what we have heard from you day in day out - sometimes multiple times a day - for several months you would have to be absolutely fucking stupid to be financially supporting the project.

lol, okay fair. Potential customer.

Doesn't actually change anything about the point I was making. "We're her ppotential customers, not her friends." Parasocial relationships are a serious problem in our world right now. We really shouldn't be encouraging them.

Also, you should see my reddit profile if you think I'm posting here too often. It takes about five minutes to check in and make a post. If I have 10 minutes to kill, I can often check both threads I'm watching on this site and still laugh at a couple cute cat gifs over on reddit with time to spare. But I'm betting you waste just as much time as I do on the internet, you just don't like what I'm posting. That's cool, you're entitled to your opinion. If you click on my name to open my user profile, there's an ignore button you can hit.

Even if you are that stupid any money you are/have given to Inno was a donation and does not lead to the entitlement you profess.

Okay, I'll bite; what entitlement have I professed?

My two complaints can basically be summed up as this: First, that if a dev spends years promising that a specific set of content is going to be a specific milestone release, then that release should contain the promised content. And second, that majority of deadlines or promises about what has been worked on has been missed or ignored entirely.

Oh and my third complaint, that the writing behind the new Nyan quest is garbage. That's an opinion. I guess you could say that having opinions is entitlement, but that'd be, well, really stupid. But you would be entitled to that opinion.

And going beyond all that, laughing at a project's struggles isn't entitlement. You might be able to argue that its a dick move, but you know, so is the cash grab that was the 0.4.0 release.

So please, explain to me what entitlement you think I'm professing?

In before you claim that me asking for an explanation is me thinking I'm entitled to an answer. I'm not. But if you don't give one I'm just going to assume its because you don't have one. And unless you give a damn good answer, I'm going to carry on about my day either way.

 

[262177]

Hmm, apparently Helena Labelle also will keep draining bouquets until female PCs finally realize they can't break hymens without an actual meatstick... in spite of the check implying that they don't need one.

The option doesn't explicitly state that it is unavailable because you don't have a meatstick, though, and will keep bringing back the romantic setup prompt. I've wasted enough flowers on this, so I'm just going to make deflowering by touch a thing myself.

Big, strong hands... Please don't mind me, I'm just trying to ease the atmosphere.

 

[throbzombie]

Hmm, apparently Helena Labelle also will keep draining bouquets until female PCs finally realize they can't break hymens without an actual meatstick... in spite of the check implying that they don't need one.

The option doesn't explicitly state that it is unavailable because you don't have a meatstick, though, and will keep bringing back the romantic setup prompt. I've wasted enough flowers on this, so I'm just going to make deflowering by touch a thing myself.

Big, strong hands... Please don't mind me, I'm just trying to ease the atmosphere.

Can you not use a strapon with her?

 

[262177]

Can you not use a strapon with her?

Nope, I've tried. It absolutely requires a penis - checked the code, and it's quite confusing... Ended up destroying two of her virginities before touching the code, her mouth's (915cm tail) and her hymen (0cm penis). She broke her mouth on her own, that wasn't supposed to happen (and even though throat effects weren't disabled, she somehow managed to fit the entire length without destroying her throat).

Changed the requirements from penis to finger, so I'm now effectively tearing her hymen and anal wall... with my fingers.
(The scene before the date just requires her to have a torn hymen, it doesn't actually matter if anyone broke it beforehand.)

 

[Fezz240]

woke up today and realized how much of a stupid s***post what i said yesterday was
(really though, why did i think counting work by lines of code was a good idea)

The issue is absolutely not that she's now spending time reworking the shit systems in this game. We all agree that should be done. The problem is that she lies constantly about what she's working on. She specifically said months ago that she's going to stop revamping systems, get the content out, and then start with the structural changes to the game. And then immediately started revamping systems.

at least we won't be seeing revamps after all this is over?
yeah i dont believe myself either .__.

 

[Sarkath]

As one of those heathens (according to my coworker, but he sucks so don't listen to him!) who puts all my closing }s on their own lines, I agree. I've got color coding set up for my IDE that I like using that works best with them split up. If you're going by KLOC as your metric, that's just going to pad out the fuck out of my code.

I'm glad I entered the industry long after KLOC was phased out, because from what I've heard about those days, that's exactly the sort of thing devs would do. Excessive whitespace/newlines, needlessly unrolled loops, you name it.

One of my coworkers is a product of that era and he's never bothered to shed any of those bad habits. It's infurating. <_<

woke up today and realized how much of a stupid s***post what i said yesterday was
(really though, why did i think counting work by lines of code was a good idea)

To be fair, it's one of those things that sound good on the surface, but when you start considering the other nuances of coding (boilerplate, algorithmic complexity, optimization/cleanup, and refactors) it kinda falls apart.

I'd say the changes from 0.3.20 to 0.4.0 mostly fall into the cleanup and refactor categories, with some obligatory boilerplate (Java imports/properties) thrown in. There was some fields/Elis content added, but a majority of it dealt with making encounters moddable (as you pointed out earlier) and changing the hardcoded encounter text to fit with the new system.

At this point the general pattern of development strikes me more as disorganization than anything outright malicious. If I had to guess, she probably starts working on something, realizes that it would be better XYZ objects were stored externally, then goes off and makes an XML loader for XYZ. Then, after that's done and tested, the same exact thing happens when she gets to the fully-hardcoded ZYX object. Sure, at the end of the day you end up with a fully moddable sex game, but you also have a throng of people wondering why the hell the fields content is over a year late.

I think if Inno's communications reflected the actual state of development people would be less upset, and I don't think her followers on SubStar would mind the delays all that much.

 

[Selen99]

Just starting the game... If I prefer to play female, is it better to straight start as female, or you can start as male and quickly (and without any gay content) transform into female?

 

[tehlemon]

Nope, I've tried. It absolutely requires a penis - checked the code, and it's quite confusing... Ended up destroying two of her virginities before touching the code, her mouth's (915cm tail) and her hymen (0cm penis). She broke her mouth on her own, that wasn't supposed to happen (and even though throat effects weren't disabled, she somehow managed to fit the entire length without destroying her throat).

Changed the requirements from penis to finger, so I'm now effectively tearing her hymen and anal wall... with my fingers.
(The scene before the date just requires her to have a torn hymen, it doesn't actually matter if anyone broke it beforehand.)

Unless it got fixed, there's actually a couple ways to break Helena's virginity without meaning to, even without a penis. Tail penetration is the easiest way. I had one play through where Helena wouldn't stop taking matters (and my tail) into her own hands and claiming her virginity for me on the first sex scene.

Just be aware, you can 100% completely sequence break her entire quest chain doing that. Most of the time the game handles the sequence break fine... Most of the time. The other times your save breaks.


There's also some fun you can have with Scarlett, once you realize that the game doesn't actually do a complete reset on her. And, unless it's been fixed (again), some really game breaking stuff that'll absolutely ruin your save file.

I got really good at breaking save files in this game lol

I'm glad I entered the industry long after KLOC was phased out, because from what I've heard about those days, that's exactly the sort of thing devs would do. Excessive whitespace/newlines, needlessly unrolled loops, you name it.

One of my coworkers is a product of that era and he's never bothered to shed any of those bad habits. It's infurating. <_<

I meaaannnn, it's not like white space is costing me anything. And having the closing bracket at the end of a completely unrelated statement just makes it annoying. I like being able to spot them immediately...

To be fair, it's one of those things that sound good on the surface, but when you start considering the other nuances of coding (boilerplate, algorithmic complexity, optimization/cleanup, and refactors) it kinda falls apart.

I'd say the changes from 0.3.20 to 0.4.0 mostly fall into the cleanup and refactor categories, with some obligatory boilerplate (Java imports/properties) thrown in. There was some fields/Elis content added, but a majority of it dealt with making encounters moddable (as you pointed out earlier) and changing the hardcoded encounter text to fit with the new system.

At this point the general pattern of development strikes me more as disorganization than anything outright malicious. If I had to guess, she probably starts working on something, realizes that it would be better XYZ objects were stored externally, then goes off and makes an XML loader for XYZ. Then, after that's done and tested, the same exact thing happens when she gets to the fully-hardcoded ZYX object. Sure, at the end of the day you end up with a fully moddable sex game, but you also have a throng of people wondering why the hell the fields content is over a year late.

I think if Inno's communications reflected the actual state of development people would be less upset, and I don't think her followers on SubStar would mind the delays all that much.

Yeah, that seems to be the problem she's running into. And honestly, if she was just outright saying that, I wouldn't have a problem with any of this. As long as she doesn't immediately say "I'm not going to rework these systems, I'll get the update out first and then do it" which is exactly what she did.

Honestly, that's why I keep commenting on workflow. Workflow is a really, really important concept. When designing my own game, workflow is one of the most important concept I'm keeping in mind. I want to be able to easily explain how to create content, and I want it to be easy enough to implement that someone with zero coding experience (like, straight up doesn't understand what an if statement is levels of coding experience) could write and add playable content. Because if I can manage that, then I can easily add content myself. Almost anyone could.

But, I guess I have two advantages going into all this. The first is that I'm someone who follows game development and have been since the era when text adventure games were common. And second, I've done a lot of writing for other games, not just the adult variety. I've seen a lot of ways to make game writing miserable.

Just starting the game... If I prefer to play female, is it better to straight start as female, or you can start as male and quickly (and without any gay content) transform into female?

Either way is pretty simple. Once you know you're way around, you can get to MTF transformation stuff really quickly, but as a new player it'll probably take a bit to find those methods.

I don't know if you want spoilers or anything. If you want specific instructions one of us should be able to give them to you.

 

[262177]

Unless it got fixed, there's actually a couple ways to break Helena's virginity without meaning to, even without a penis. Tail penetration is the easiest way. I had one play through where Helena wouldn't stop taking matters (and my tail) into her own hands and claiming her virginity for me on the first sex scene.

Just be aware, you can 100% completely sequence break her entire quest chain doing that. Most of the time the game handles the sequence break fine... Most of the time. The other times your save breaks.


There's also some fun you can have with Scarlett, once you realize that the game doesn't actually do a complete reset on her. And, unless it's been fixed (again), some really game breaking stuff that'll absolutely ruin your save file.

I got really good at breaking save files in this game lol

Looks like we both just love breaking things that are already super broken.

The first virginity one is pretty simple since it just requires Helena to have a torn hymen, so you can (literally) change her hymen virginity to false and suddenly, free shopping sex. The second one (after three dates, once the romantic setup option unlocks) is a bit more confusing, as there will just be a "Virginity" option sitting there that will be greyed out and unclickable (and the tooltip, instead of saying you need a penis, will casually tell you that Helena isn't okay with her virginity being taken and you should organize a romantic setup, which is exactly what you've done).

With all the mess in the conditional branches, it likely just fails to jump to the penis check, as Take anal virginity does state that you need a penis instead of going "romantic setup or bust".

What's indeed amusing is Helena, as you stated, can just do that by herself and break all orifices - mouth, anus and vagina - with a tail that can penetrate her (and effectively bypass the buttons). Another amusing thing is destroying her virginity won't debuff her either (she'll retain the Lusty Maiden perk).

Unrelated: Teleporting to Dominion (directly on the world map tile) will trigger a ghost Meraxis chuuni dialogue that is (unsurprisingly) full of bugs and broken variables as this isn't supposed to happen.

Didn't know about Scarlett so I'm going to have to test that. Rather charged schedule as I also had planned to bug the hell out of Brax, Bree and Brandi without actually buying the slave (just because, like, I want to have hot FF copsex with Candi).

Just starting the game... If I prefer to play female, is it better to straight start as female, or you can start as male and quickly (and without any gay content) transform into female?

As tehlemon said, your mileage may vary depending on your content settings.

As far as I know, you can casually transform into just about anything without worrying about potions by either save editing or becoming a demon. Or using buggy, of course...

Edit: Right, I forgot I finally met my first hostile Enforcers and somehow managed to have them perform a full body search with literally 120 slots of highly illegal items. Not a single one was confiscated and wasn't arrested. I wasn't even dressed as an Enforcer, I was literally naked and taking a dip in the canal. There also wasn't any dialogue after I casually agreed to let them take a look.

 

[feelotraveller]

Thanks for taking my interjection with a degree of good humour.

lol, okay fair. Potential customer.

Doesn't actually change anything about the point I was making. "We're her ppotential customers, not her friends." Parasocial relationships are a serious problem in our world right now. We really shouldn't be encouraging them.

Umm, parasocial relationships? Although they are indeed a problem I'm missing the relevance to Innoxia. Just about no-one here would consider her their friend - the couple who might would only do so in the restricted sense of the interactions that they have had in working towards a common goal.

The 'customer' relation does not fit. It is a gift economy. Innoxia is making something she wishes to share with interested parties (i.e. 'us'). Some of 'us' wish to contribute to this project in various ways - some are modders, some choose to give money, some choose to give feedback, others just enjoy, or not, the game.

And remember too, that we 'live' in - occupy might be better - a pirate space. f95zone is not a service one buys, at best one gives time or money to sustain its existence. To the best of my knowledge Inno has never objected to the game being uploaded here, indeed in happier times she was around to hear what people thought about the game.

Okay, I'll bite; what entitlement have I professed?

You are entitled to your opinion but Inno owes you absolutely nothing, just like she owes the rest of us absolutely nothing.
(Or is this the parasocial relationship you were thinking of?)

 

[tehlemon]

You are entitled to your opinion but Inno owes you absolutely nothing, just like she owes the rest of us absolutely nothing.
(Or is this the parasocial relationship you were thinking of?)

Right, so basically you got nothing. You just tried to call me entitled because you think it's, what, some magic "I win the argument" phrase or something?

No company owes anyone shit. Every single company that exists could shutdown tomorrow and there's fuck all you or I could do about it. But that'd be really fucking stupid; almost as stupid as your asinine argument.

Whatevs, at least you were brave enough to answer. And at least I saw it before the mods delete our comments.

 

[hanswon]

I'm laughing. Inno missed her deadline (again) and apologized saying her previous release date was optimistic on the 24th, then, learning nothing, said "I won't give a fixed deadline for 0.4.0.5, but it really shouldn't be more than 2-3 days now... " A full on mess. Stop. Giving. Guesstimates. Honestly, should just finish her work on her own time. I feel people won't be as upset if they aren't always being given these release dates that get missed—if they aren't always feeling like they're being lied to just to keep the game in their head. It's how I felt and why I stopped donating long, long ago.

 

[Monstrous Moonshine]

Thanks for taking my interjection with a degree of good humour.



Umm, parasocial relationships? Although they are indeed a problem I'm missing the relevance to Innoxia. Just about no-one here would consider her their friend - the couple who might would only do so in the restricted sense of the interactions that they have had in working towards a common goal.

The 'customer' relation does not fit. It is a gift economy. Innoxia is making something she wishes to share with interested parties (i.e. 'us'). Some of 'us' wish to contribute to this project in various ways - some are modders, some choose to give money, some choose to give feedback, others just enjoy, or not, the game.

And remember too, that we 'live' in - occupy might be better - a pirate space. f95zone is not a service one buys, at best one gives time or money to sustain its existence. To the best of my knowledge Inno has never objected to the game being uploaded here, indeed in happier times she was around to hear what people thought about the game.



You are entitled to your opinion but Inno owes you absolutely nothing, just like she owes the rest of us absolutely nothing.
(Or is this the parasocial relationship you were thinking of?)

Your argument would be valid if Innoxia herself didn't style her relationship to SubscribeStar as: "... allowing me to treat development of Lilith's Throne as a full-time job." Also, if you read the descriptions of the perks on the SubscribeStar, they are direct promises in exchange for support, that entail that work is done: "Access to preview builds (available in-between full public releases)", "Early access to artwork commissions and other supplementary content (such as clothing mods or additional writing)", et cetera.
I wish people would stop treating it as though if your income source is a subscription service platform, like Patreon, or SubscribeStar, and you rely on that income, it somehow doesn't count as a "real job". In this day and age, the job market has changed radically, due to improving technologies and changes in culture.
If people are supporting you, based upon the promise that work will be done, and that a product is to be delivered, and then you go far enough to make public deadlines, and don't meet them? You deserve criticism. Admittedly, that criticism should be constructive, but criticism should still be given.
Now, before you reply with some smarmy nonsense. She has continually been given constructive criticism, such as being told to focus on the "official roadmap", or hire some developers to help her. Yet, she still hasn't changed, she still hasn't improved, so what're we to do?
It doesn't matter whether you directly support her or not, you can still be critical that other people are getting ripped off and being complacent about it. Because in turn, this influences the indie adult games market, and makes it seem as though this behavior is acceptable. This community, and the community of Lilth's Throne isn't a closed system, so save us your special pleading and wind your neck in.

 

[doomtrack]

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Lets be honest, as long as inno has people willing to defend their game dev cuckoild fetish like he is, there is no need to change.

 

[262177]

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

As I didn't find any trace of this in the current code (yes, it is perfectly legal to reverse-engineer code where I am located for personal use) but would still like to confirm just in case I missed a few things, size difference just is cosmetic, correct?

I've been trying to get Helena to spit on me by forcing FETISH_SADIST, FETISH_DOMINANT (the latter shouldn't be required but since it requires a NPC to be the dom in the scene, it's for the best) as well as mouth availability for both sides to no avail. Tried all kinds of positions and after a few thousand tries as well as literally preventing her from doing anything but using her mouth to talk, all she does is choke, slap and degrade, and yes, I have spitting content enabled. Tried changing my PC size from 366cm to 198cm after this to make it slightly less awkward for her to be able to spit on me, but since Scarlett has no trouble doing so while sitting and while the PC is standing, that shouldn't make any difference.

Sooo... Did I miss something obvious or slightly less obvious in the code? Thanks in advance.

(I apologize for blatant violation of harpy rights by forcing them to stand still and use their mouth to degrade their partner.)

 

[Monstrous Moonshine]

Lets be honest, as long as inno has people willing to defend their game dev cuckoild fetish like he is, there is no need to change.

Sad, but true!