- Apr 1, 2020
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"Game doesn't work the way that games I like work" != "game is badly designed".
Having played this game a bunch, believe me: there's plenty of design decisions in this game that I don't think are well-thought out, and are, in fact, quite bad. Maybe someday I'll itemize them.
BUT. "Game killed me within 5 minutes of starting" isn't one of them. That's a deliberate choice, and it serves two purposes:
- It teaches you how the core gameplay/combat loop works so that when the enemies get way, waaay tougher, you already understand how the strategies that you used to take out rats will have to be adapted
- It reinforces the story the game is trying to tell, about a harsh and cruel world where very few good things happen, with a gamefeel that intrinsically feels punishing (pretentious nerdboys sometimes call this "Ludonarrative")
Whether or not that design is being applied to a game that should tell that story is a more open, more interesting question with a non-obvious answer.
But the game design in the tutorial reinforces the story being told in this part of the game, and it establishes the core mechanics that you need to be familiar with for the rest of the game. That makes it good design.
- Jul 21, 2020
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I know this doesn't help, but once you know what you're doing, the game is very easy. I basically never stress on Hell Mode. Doom Mode, I think, is difficult for difficulties sake and ruins the "fun" to the point where I give up playing.
- Aug 25, 2017
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First off, I need to make sure you're not mistaking resting for sleeping or eating food for no good reason. If you're sending Lona to sleep every time your stamina drops too low, you're actually screwing yourself. Eventually you'll accidentally fall asleep somewhere that'll lead to you being captured or wake up to a world difficulty level too high for you to survive. If you're stuffing Lona's face at every opportunity you get, you're wasting your food. Food should be reserved for dungeon crawls and walking long distances. The Inns in the game are your cheapest food option. Buy a key and sleep when you're hungry. You'll wake up with full health and stamina, as well as a mostly-full belly. If you're dying from a lack of food and stamina despite all this, it's probably because you're not fighting or traveling efficiently.
The stamina system isn't too bad, it's just something you eventually learn to manage. Simply doing the rat killing tutorial quest gives you enough money to rest in the inn for the next three days and night. If you hire a companion, you don't need to fight as much or at all, depending on the enemy. If you didn't fight much and your hunger is mostly full, you could sleep in an alleyway to save money. Rising dead in the Cemetery takes about half a day to do, pays enough for a full day's stay at the inn, and refreshes every other day. Crystal Mine clean-up will take most of a day, but pays enough for 3 and a half days of stay in the inn. It's also a good source of Mystery Meat if you're looking for easy food sources. The cost of an NPC that can do all the worth for you for the next two or three days? About half a day's stay in the inn. Aside from being able to cook your meat, all of this is accessible to a lv 1 Lona.
Don't want to hire a dude or rely on the inn? That's fine, rats, mice, and insects are technically edible and respawn in the sewer every time you leave and reenter it. Eaten raw, a mouse restores 12 hunger, an insect restores 6, and raw animal meat (from rats) restore 8. As long as you're not spending unnecessary amounts of stamina to kill the rats, you should have a net gain of hunger every time you run through the sewers. You might have to deal with squatters every 10 days or so, but by the time that becomes an issue, you should have gained enough levels to deal with them.
- Jul 21, 2020
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All good suggestions, and there's even more you can do to make the game easier for yourself once you have the experience. People who say the game is too hard are, obviously, people who haven't given it a proper chance.
Projecting much?
I'm 35 and I enjoy difficult games. I'm not complaining about difficulty, I'm complaining about bad design.
Finally someone who actually read and understood my message.
My problem is that once you get stunned and knocked down, there's no way to recover. It is basically game over, but the game doesn't tell you that but instead wastes minutes by letting the rat slowly tickle you to death without being able to do anything.
If the stamina system was such a big deal to the dev, at least split the stamina used for attacks and stamina used for everything else, so at least you can try to break away if you are too tired to fight.
My bad, I did not realize this game was for hardcore masochists.
- Oct 10, 2020
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Yep, pretty much... I would assume people who like Dark souls or Elden Ring might find it enjoyable. I just love the feeling of overcoming this game, in the beginning, I just save scum to learn as much as I can and push through a certain playstyle even if it is even tougher. At least now the game is quite easy for me as I use a Trap/Stealth build with a Halberd and Musket at the ready for specific battles. I rarely use companions cause I don't want them to die so I mostly solo or use expendable mercs to use as meat shields.
Currently just waiting for more updates as I am a Deepone Hero and slayer of the flesh plague!
eccma should really add "gatekeeping rats" achievement if you get downed by rats at the beginning.
aside from that here's a risk-free tip for people complaining how hard money is at beginning,
after the rats tutorial, don't talk to guild receptionist as not to spawn some killable unique characters and just hit the guy above indiana jones once to trigger big mama, go up to second floor and back to reset again, rinse and repeat till you have what you think you need then talk to the receptionist.
you could actually do this indefinitely if you want, even enough money to get you out of noer day 1 if you have the patience. just take care that big mama doesn't get downed, it's very rare but still could happen with RNG. go up the second floor immediately to reset if you see her start crawling.
aside from that here's a risk-free tip for people complaining how hard money is at beginning,
after the rats tutorial, don't talk to guild receptionist as not to spawn some killable unique characters and just hit the guy above indiana jones once to trigger big mama, go up to second floor and back to reset again, rinse and repeat till you have what you think you need then talk to the receptionist.
you could actually do this indefinitely if you want, even enough money to get you out of noer day 1 if you have the patience. just take care that big mama doesn't get downed, it's very rare but still could happen with RNG. go up the second floor immediately to reset if you see her start crawling.
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- Feb 21, 2018
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Ok. First, I want to apologize for using such words to reply to you. I admit that shouldn't be a way to talk to anybody. My bad.
I understand your point now from reading many replies to your comment. But the way you put your thoughts on LonaRPG is so... not-adult that i thought you were a hater.
The game is sure indeed hard. But the joy in this game is to learn how to overcome it and experience its comedy though a hard way, just like how life would. And that what i like it best.
Finally, I wish you had a great time researching stategies, tips and tricks to play this game. If you still want to, that's all.
- Feb 21, 2018
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- Mar 15, 2021
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And she can dodge lightning, how's that for just a little girl!
- Mar 15, 2021
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The only people who think this game is hard are the ones that don't make it past the tutorial. Nobody who has been around for a while thinks this game is hard. Game is deceptively complex and its mechanics are untenably obscure. You will struggle until you figure out how stuff works after which you won't be able to remember what you were having so much trouble with in the first place.
In other words if this game looks fun to you don't give up. Just don't give up.
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- Jul 21, 2020
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That's because she has good bones, the wizard guy said so : )
- Feb 21, 2018
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The wizard guy was wrong and right at the same time, i said that. :~3
I'm sorry, it seems like you missed my post so I'll just link it again just in case you missed it https://f95zone.to/threads/lonarpg-v0-6-6-7-beta-hotfix-eccma417.49993/post-7798390.
Let me just clarify, what bad game design is. Bad game design is when the game does something that is either contradicting to what it is based on or just flat out unfair.
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LonaRPG does not suffer from bad game design (Besides the engine it was built on).
Getting hit stunned and can't do crap? Guess what, you can also hit stun the enemy to death. A bad game would make it one sided where only the player would need to suffer such cruel fates.
Stamina system is oppressive and unfair? Guess what, even the enemy has a STA bar to maintain and you know what is funnier? Lona is literally the only one that can recover her stamina bar mid fight via resting or portions(the hidden benefits of being the protagonist). You can literally use attacks that focus on the enemies' STA and cripple them to a crawl just because. You know what you can do to stop being crippled with negative STA? Maybe you should use the skill "Rest" to recover your STA to full before fighting another enemy~ Wow~ Revolutionary~
You are always out numbered and the enemy just gangs up on you? Have you thought about NOT facing multiple enemies at once? Maybe you know... lead them to a choke point so you can fight them one at a time? Maybe that way you will stop getting hit stunned so much cause you are being hit by less enemies~ Wow~
Oh you are doing pee sized damage? Did you check your inventory? Did you see what weapon you are using? Ya... you are using a
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. Maybe that is why you do so little damage. Have you tried using your lantern to burn them? I heard fire is very dangerous.Trust me. You complaining about bad game design is the funniest thing I heard recently. Don't criticizes a game you don't have an understanding about. Heck, you aren't even criticizing the game properly, you are just trash talking it because you fail to understand how to play the game.
You don't play Starcraft like a moba. You are going to have a horrible time if you do that. And what, you are going to complain about bad game design cause you didn't realize it was an RTS and that you needed to build shit to play the game properly?
You don't play LonaRPG like a normal brain dead hentai game like 95% that come out. It is a survival RPG that is actually very much on the player's side.
If you want to have an actual constructive conversation, actually point out what is bad about the game. Then maybe we can have a cup of coffee and discuss why or why not it is bad. Do what Wowadoo did and express your opinion with detail. People are going to shit talk you if you don't elaborate. Heck, this whole reply is me shit talking you because of how much of a joke your comment is to me.
Okay okay, lets address the one actual proper complaint that you had about the game: The STA system. Because that is the only thing you actually talked about is "bad design".
First of all, lets discuss what the current STA system is. STA is basically energy for Lona. Almost every active action Lona does requires STA. Getting hit also drains STA. If at whatever point Lona's STA reaches 0 or lower, she will be forced to crawl until she recovers her stamina, passes out due to reaching -100 STA, or dies. Lona can recover her STA using 3 methods. Resting recovers 20 STA for the cost of 10 hunger. Blue potions recover a large amount of STA for the cost of 10 hp. Sleeping which recovers STA based on your hunger level.
This STA system is very fair and is quite easy to manage. First off, the main concern is to never reach 0 STA or else you are fucked... literally. Having only one dedicated STA bar is fair cause... humans only have one STA bar. If you are exhausted from punching a wall for 30 mins, you won't suddenly get the energy to break out to a full sprint all of a sudden. This is why having a "split" stamina feature doesn't exactly fit. Having a split stamina for attack and one for running literally makes you a super human. Other games use this feature so players can feel more impowered and allows them to get away with stupid shit more. Imagine if Dark souls has a separate STA bar. Guess what, players would just abuse the shit out of roll because it is not related to your attacking STA bar. They would just Roll to dodge everything (cause of I frames) and just continue to attack the enemy like nothing. It breaks the balance of the game. Same with Lona, it doesn't make sense for Lona to have 2 separate STA bars. The whole challenge of it is to maintain your STA bar and trying to avoid extra STA loss through certain tactics. Having "infinite" (one that recharges over time) STA is not the goal as Lona is built around survival and not only managing her STA but her Hunger as well.
Now, getting hit reduces STA... makes sense. Guess what, if you get punched in the jaw perfectly, you are probably gonna get knocked out. If you get punched in the gut, you are probably going to have a bad time on the ground wincing in pain. You are not going to feel like going on a marathon after getting hit, you want to shake it off and rest.
Crawling when you reach 0 stamina or lower... also makes sense. If you literally completely exhausted from doing something, you aren't just going to stand up and run away. No, you are going to be on the floor gasping for air and begging for some form of rest. Guess what, the game does that. Getting hit continuously does not count as rest so it is understandable why it will disrupt your "rest" skill.
Now, even though I justified why the current STA system works the way it does, we still got to ask the question... is it bad game design?
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Pewf, welp... I had fun breaking down how LonaRPG's game systems work and I did learn a decent amount from it as well. I don't care if you don't care about anything I just said, but your loss. Ima go start another Doom Play through.
Your whole premise is wrong and you keep iterating the same point over and over in your wall of text.
Games are games and they are not reality. Games are meant to be rewarding for the player. Allowing player to become stun locked is failed design. It doesn't matter at all if player can do it to enemies too, player is playing the game and not the enemies. The program doesn't care if the game is interesting or rewarding or fun. It only exists to present an obstacle for the player to overcome. If the enemies can be stunlocked, it doesn't really make the combat more interesting either.
Yeah, your example is bad design, but you're arguing that's all bad design can be. If your shitty stamina mechanic makes the game worse, then it's bad design and should be changed. You're making a point that the stamina mechanic exists for added realism, but at what cost? Besides, the mechanic isn't really that realistic either. People can summon strength in life or death situations, or keep on going with sheer willpower even if their strength is diminished. People do not need to actively "rest" to recover strength. That happens automatically, when not doing a strenuous activity. If I do 15 chin ups, yes I can not do any more. But if I wait 1,5 mins or even do something else, like sit ups for that time, I'm then able to do more chin ups. That's why it makes no sense that if the player is knocked out, they can never get back up. It's obvious that the only function of the stamina mechanic is to waste the player's time and make the game more frustrating to play. That's why it's bad design.
- Jun 28, 2020
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No no no, I'm not mistaking sleeping for as in, passing 12 hours, but the rest skill we have, which recovers 20 stamina in exchange for 10 hunger. And I've played the game for a long time, time is probably way over 20 hours or 30, I have no idea. I've had this game since January. So I'd say I know most of the necessary niches to make this game more efficient.
I know to keep food reserved for dungeon crawls, or going long distances of course, use the inns when I can, and should, and know the necessary easy quests.
Basically what I'm saying is, I feel like I know how to efficiently play this game, and am sure of it, because it's not really "hard" anymore, compared to my first 30 minutes of gameplay, rather it's waay easier.
And I see how the stamina system isn't "bad", but to me it's illogical, as well as consumes an unnecessary amount of time compared to the games otherwise logical approach.
Based on a harsh world, difficult and mind boggling world, we see that the enemies are difficult, quests are difficult too, there are traps, money's harsh, characters might be evil, etc. These all, and I mean everything certainly requires strategy, and critical thinking yes, and to me, is a depiction/comparison to the real world, with some other twists to a certain extent, which is logical, and adds on to the games premise of a harsh world!
But, like I said before, the stamina system, or rather parts of it are what are annoying. Although it's "just something you eventually learn to manage", some parts of it aren't just logical, to pinpoint it even more specifically, the combat based stamina consumption, the in map stamina based consumption, as well as recovery.
To make it easier to understand, I'll put it in branches:
Combat Getting attacked:
-This is logical, getting attacked, will confuse you, hurt you, make you lose you're breath, and the stronger the opponent, the more breath/stamina you will lose.
Combat Attacking:
-I apologize, before I think I said that the Lona losing a lot of stamina after attacking is a stamina issue, but rethinking it, and relooking over it, it seems I had a misconception, Lona doesn't seem to be losing a lot of stamina, and it seems very logical to the games premise, as well as reality.
Sleeping Skill/Hunger:
Now, this is the main issue I want to talk about
-Using the sleeping skill, not sleeping on a bed, recovers 20 stamina per 10 hunger.
-Now, lets say I Attacked a dummy, using all 100 stamina, with a 1 stamina consuming attack.
-I'd need to use the sleep skill 5 times, reducing 50% of the amount of food in my stomach I ate.
-Seems weird right? Epically since this is a game, with a reflection to realistical systems, of course in a dangerous world.
-If me, and average joe, swung a sword, light one lets say, 100 times, I'd be tired, but after a small rest I'd probably be able to do that a more times, without being hungry until a couple more hours, and still have stamina to spare.
-Yet in this system, it doesn't do that which is the main flaw.
Now, of course, situations are different. The one I mentioned above, is purely in the form of Lona attacking, without being attacked, sick, broken arm etc.
How could Eccma make this system better?
-Firstly, increasing the base stamina recovery ratio, I don't know how high, but that's why there are test builds.
-Secondly, implement a system, after increasing the base stamina recovery ratio, in which the more wounds, or status effects you have, the less stamina you're able to recover. As an example, the base recovery lets say is 50:10, stamina to hunger, then a head injury, would reduce it to 30, maybe an arm injury to 40, both arms would be 25, and head, with arms 10.
And that about sums it up, I might have things I'm forgetting.
Now I also want to point out, I'm free if you guys want to point out some things I'm either , or things I'm saying wrong, but try not to only ostracize, since we're having a discussion, to come to a common ground afterwards.
